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 BlaxicanX wrote:

 44Ronin wrote:
You mean constantly focus on the negatives? Yeah it gets old.

Are you going to adapt to the negativity or are you going to sit around and whine about it?

Well played.

If wanted to play the game purely from a fluff perspective make you p your own rules then. Fluff is great but when Ghazkull sucks in comparison to any Space Marine Chapter master its not fun. CM have every good rule, save and option available to them for less points and in a regular HQ option ,so go fluff

 44Ronin wrote:
Can I say this as an Ork player of 2 decades or is my positive comment invalid before even making it (cause people here hate that) ?

You're the one complaining about others' posting, so I don't know, can you?

 44Ronin wrote:

I love the mob rule change. It changes Orks from mindless zombies taken in cut and paste mobs of 30 by default, into something that is FAR FAR more in line with the fluff.
I don't care if it hurts people, now that they have to actually think about morale factors.

I'm glad you enjoy the nerf. I'm also glad you'll accept 100 Space Marines being able to destroy entire planetary forces, since that's "FAR FAR more in line with the fluff" too!

 44Ronin wrote:

and lets not forget, it helps smaller elite units., esp bikers and MANz who can literally laugh off the wounds. When you attach a painboy to a MANz unit that's +4 to wound and then you need to fail +2 save and then fail +5 FNP. Bikers it's 5+ to wound and then you've got your chance at a save.

The elite smaller units needed this ability not to leg it. I'll take the wounds rather than getting run down any day.

It only helps smaller units IF you roll an appropriate number, and IF you are in the appropriate circumstance. Not in CC? Roll a 1 = failure. Small unit? Better not roll 4+! No leader? 2-3 is out!

The new Mob Rule is a nerf, straight up.

TableTopJosh wrote:
If wanted to play the game purely from a fluff perspective make you p your own rules then. Fluff is great but when Ghazkull sucks in comparison to any Space Marine Chapter master its not fun. CM have every good rule, save and option available to them for less points and in a regular HQ option ,so go fluff

Yeah, honestly making him a Lord of War is pointless if you're not going to at least buff him to make him worth the slot. Hell, they arguably made him worse now that he lost the +2 attacks on the charge from his adamantium skull, AND the nerf to cybork body, making him have no invuln. unless he WAAAGH!'s...once. Unless he's able to keep WAAAGH!ing with the new FOC for Orks, the Prophet of the WAAAGH! has never looked worse.

TableTopJosh wrote:
If wanted to play the game purely from a fluff perspective make you p your own rules then.

If you want to play the game as WAAC make up your own rules then....

Fluff is great but when Ghazkull sucks in comparison to any Space Marine Chapter master its not fun. CM have every good rule, save and option available to them for less points and in a regular HQ option ,so go fluff

Orks =/= SM. Not a third eye revelation here but it bears repeating ....

what page is the leak compilation on? and is it started whether or not ork boyz get 'ere we go?

 streamdragon wrote:

 44Ronin wrote:
Can I say this as an Ork player of 2 decades or is my positive comment invalid before even making it (cause people here hate that) ?

You're the one complaining about others' posting, so I don't know, can you?

 44Ronin wrote:

I love the mob rule change. It changes Orks from mindless zombies taken in cut and paste mobs of 30 by default, into something that is FAR FAR more in line with the fluff.
I don't care if it hurts people, now that they have to actually think about morale factors.

I'm glad you enjoy the nerf. I'm also glad you'll accept 100 Space Marines being able to destroy entire planetary forces, since that's "FAR FAR more in line with the fluff" too!

I'm not going to accept a specific conditional example of something you don't even bother to cite. Cite it, then we'll talk?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:

 44Ronin wrote:
Can I say this as an Ork player of 2 decades or is my positive comment invalid before even making it (cause people here hate that) ?

You're the one complaining about others' posting, so I don't know, can you?

Consider it as constructive criticism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheKbob wrote:

 44Ronin wrote:

Well the changes have been made, and what are you going to do about it? Complain and get stuck in negativity or adapt?

Do you even play Orks?

Hooray, more reductive arguments!... ...and half my post was about trying a new strategy, but sure... ignore that part for convenience...

Nope, have friends that do. Having a tepid, vanilla book, like Tyranids and Guard, does worse for the game than make it better. And I did adapt. Would you care for a game of Infinity, Malifaux, Warmachine, or Freeblades? I play four games instead of one now!

Ok, so you don't play Orks. So why should I value YOUR opinions.

Your arguments so far, aren't holding water... and taking about Tyranid and Guard codexes is surely a reductive argument.

So you don't play Orks, and compare them to Tyranid and Guard codexes....

The changes are whatever, a slight buff there a slight nerf there, its just sitting weird because its not what must of us were expecting. Unexpected changes can be a good thing but in my opinion this time its not.

I've read through this as much as I can but there are still a few things I've either missed or do not quite understand. So apologies if this has already been asked:

1. The only way to get Waaaggghhh is by picking a Warboss correct? Is it still a one turn per game thing? Does it affect all units in an army, just the unit he is attached to, or units within X inches?

2. Zagstruk was mentioned as a HQ choice with S8 AP2 HoW hits. Does he count as a Warboss IC (and possibly have Waagghh)? If not any chance a Warboss can take a jump pack?

Thanks

It seems like the new mob rule would be VERY easy to math hammer if one were so inclined and knew how (I don't) for most of the obvious circumstances. After that, it seems like it would be a small jump to compare it to the old Mob Rule.

Any takers?

I will also ask about Zagstruk and whether or not his profile changed at all. Does he have the same stats? If so, does his Vulcha Klaws actually count as a pair of PK or does it only just give him a S8 AP2 HoW hit?

 matphat wrote:
It seems like the new mob rule would be VERY easy to math hammer if one were so inclined and knew how (I don't) for most of the obvious circumstances. After that, it seems like it would be a small jump to compare it to the old Mob Rule.

Any takers?

Old mob rule = 0% chance to not fall back if > 10 models
New rule > 0% chance to fall back.. Can fall back from pinning attack!

Easy math to understand its a fairly signifcant nerf

 Kirasu wrote:

 matphat wrote:
It seems like the new mob rule would be VERY easy to math hammer if one were so inclined and knew how (I don't) for most of the obvious circumstances. After that, it seems like it would be a small jump to compare it to the old Mob Rule.

Any takers?

Old mob rule = 0% chance to not fall back if > 10 models
New rule > 0% chance to fall back.. Can fall back from pinning attack!

Easy math to understand its a fairly signifcant nerf

Can't fall back from a pinning attack, since the Mob Rule just says you treat it as failing the roll. Rest is still true. Plain fact is we lost Fearless. It's a nerf, no two ways about it.

 streamdragon wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 matphat wrote:
It seems like the new mob rule would be VERY easy to math hammer if one were so inclined and knew how (I don't) for most of the obvious circumstances. After that, it seems like it would be a small jump to compare it to the old Mob Rule.

Any takers?

Old mob rule = 0% chance to not fall back if > 10 models
New rule > 0% chance to fall back.. Can fall back from pinning attack!

Easy math to understand its a fairly signifcant nerf

Can't fall back from a pinning attack, since the Mob Rule just says you treat it as failing the roll. Rest is still true. Plain fact is we lost Fearless. It's a nerf, no two ways about it.

But small units can still hold after failing tests. So... no.

Small units die from taking D6 S4 hits. Try again!

 44Ronin wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

 matphat wrote:
It seems like the new mob rule would be VERY easy to math hammer if one were so inclined and knew how (I don't) for most of the obvious circumstances. After that, it seems like it would be a small jump to compare it to the old Mob Rule.

Any takers?

Old mob rule = 0% chance to not fall back if > 10 models
New rule > 0% chance to fall back.. Can fall back from pinning attack!

Easy math to understand its a fairly signifcant nerf

Can't fall back from a pinning attack, since the Mob Rule just says you treat it as failing the roll. Rest is still true. Plain fact is we lost Fearless. It's a nerf, no two ways about it.

But small units can still hold after failing tests. So... no.

Literally half the Mob Rule chart doesn't effect units under 10 models, and 1 result only works in CC. 2 only work with characters in the unit, which hurts your small unit. So sure, if the stars align you MIGHT save a small unit. You also lose LD for units of 8-10. You can also lose 30 strong mobs now, which you couldn't before thanks to being Fearless.

 Kirasu wrote:
Small units die from taking D6 S4 hits. Try again!

Small Ork units die from being looked at the wrong way, though.

 Multimoog wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Small units die from taking D6 S4 hits. Try again!

Small Ork units die from being looked at the wrong way, though.

Yeah, therefore it doesn't matter if a small ork unit might pass a LD test.. The important thing is that a large ork unit can now FAIL one

 Kirasu wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Small units die from taking D6 S4 hits. Try again!

Small Ork units die from being looked at the wrong way, though.

Yeah, therefore it doesn't matter if a small ork unit might pass a LD test.. The important thing is that a large ork unit can now FAIL one

CAN, yes, but it's not probable and there are ample ways of making sure it doesn't. Having an IC and a Nob in the unit with bosspoles lets you use a higher LD in the first place and also lets you reroll on the chart - meaning you're much more likely to result in a roll that favors you. It is a nerf, but only in the sense that you would essentially have to continuously roll double (or triple, or etc.) 1's every time you need to make a check on a large mob outside of CC. Also, you can use buffs that those ICs provide to make saves against losing models as a result of Mob Rule.

I get your point: it's a nerf where there wasn't one before. My point is it's not a big enough nerf that it will affect the game much.

There is no roll that favors you. That's what I think needs to be understood, the ENTIRE chart was unneeded and a straight nerf.

You were fearless, now you're fearless but suffer D6 S4 hits? It's a stupid rule that simply adds yet another random chart to a game of random charts.

 Kirasu wrote:
There is no roll that favors you. That's what I think needs to be understood, the ENTIRE chart was unneeded and a straight nerf.

You were fearless, now you're fearless but suffer D6 S4 hits? It's a stupid rule that simply adds yet another random chart to a game of random charts.

I dunno, convince your meta it's unfair and get them to let you use old mob rule, old codex, etc. sell your models and quit, however you can resolve this issue that gives you the best quality of life

TableTopJosh wrote:
The changes are whatever, a slight buff there a slight nerf there, its just sitting weird because its not what must of us were expecting.

Really? Because to me, this release looks rather predictable...

They changed invulnerable saves to be consistent with other armies.
They generally buffed weak units and nerfed the stronger ones.
They added more random tables / random values.
They changed the weirdboy to be consistent with other psykers.
They included a couple of things that reference back to the 1st/2nd edition books.
They gave us a range of moderately good ranged anti-armour options.

 Kirasu wrote:
Small units die from taking D6 S4 hits. Try again!

MANz who get to reroll with a bosspole? They laugh at the wounds and then they laugh at you.

Let's attach a Painboy and Warboss and they'll laugh too

 matphat wrote:
It seems like the new mob rule would be VERY easy to math hammer if one were so inclined and knew how (I don't) for most of the obvious circumstances. After that, it seems like it would be a small jump to compare it to the old Mob Rule.

Any takers?

From the start you need to see what the old and new Mob Rule tries to do.

-The 4th Ed Mob Rule was introduced to allow large groups of boyz to act in an effective and fluffy manner by supplying conditional fearless. This did not, and was not intended to, fix the issues of low leadership in elite units like nobs and meganobs.

-The 7th Ed Mob Rule was introduced to fix the issue of poor leadership in Ork's elite units, namely Nobs and Meganobs. The new rule does improve these two units with their low model counts in a non-insignificant manner, but it totally breaks the rule created in the 4th Ed codex in terms of how it works with boyz mobs.


For Nobs/Meganobs they, in essence, gain a pseudo higher Ld value. They can still be pinned/fall back/be swept, but it occurs at a lower rate than their LD 7 would imply. Depending on circumstance (if they have a bosspole/have a character/are in combat) they are worse/similar/better than Ld10, but still don't have fearless. Meganobs in particular can expect to take no wounds from the D6 hits most of the time.
All in all it's a buff for these guys. However, not to the level of almost all of their peer units in other codexes. The 7th Ed Mob Rule, tries to, and fails totally, to fix the issue its trying to deal with both in terms of game rules and fluff.


For Boyz, the new Mob Rule is a total Gong Show. Straight up loss of fearlessness, straight up loss of higher Ld values (remember, there are things that check Ld other than morale tests, and boyz are now dramatically more vulnerable to them.) It's like having the old rule for taking extra wounds when losing combat while fearless, but not ever having fearless, and having the extra wounds apply to any and all morale checks (pinning, fear, shooting, etc. Stormboyz will take them when they have to test for morale after losing so many models for their new broken rokkit pack.). In fact, at low model counts, its fully possible for the wounds taken from mob rule to force the boyz to take another mob rule test and lose even more models, in some circumstances.

The only clear range that boyz benefit from the new mob rule is at extremely small number were the old mob rule would not even give a Ld boost (1-7 models remaining), but this it only for simply passing the morale check. At such a small number, the usability of the group relies heavily on maintaining their already diminished number and Mob Rule does the exact opposite. A bad roll, and mob rule will kill so many boyz the squad's usefulness is eliminated.

 matphat wrote:
I just got permission from my gaming group to keep using the 4th Ed. codex. Either till we decide that the new dex isn't mostly worse, or until the end of time. Which ever comes first.

Makes the whole thing feel quite a bit better.

that's about the smartest thing i've seen on this thread all day.

 Toburk wrote:

 matphat wrote:
It seems like the new mob rule would be VERY easy to math hammer if one were so inclined and knew how (I don't) for most of the obvious circumstances. After that, it seems like it would be a small jump to compare it to the old Mob Rule.

Any takers?

From the start you need to see what the old and new Mob Rule tries to do.

-The 4th Ed Mob Rule was introduced to allow large groups of boyz to act in an effective and fluffy manner by supplying conditional fearless. This did not, and was not intended to, fix the issues of low leadership in elite units like nobs and meganobs.

-The 7th Ed Mob Rule was introduced to fix the issue of poor leadership in Ork's elite units, namely Nobs and Meganobs. The new rule does improve these two units with their low model counts in a non-insignificant manner, but it totally breaks the rule created in the 4th Ed codex in terms of how it works with boyz mobs.


For Nobs/Meganobs they, in essence, gain a pseudo higher Ld value. They can still be pinned/fall back/be swept, but it occurs at a lower rate than their LD 7 would imply. Depending on circumstance (if they have a bosspole/have a character/are in combat) they are worse/similar/better than Ld10, but still don't have fearless. Meganobs in particular can expect to take no wounds from the D6 hits most of the time.
All in all it's a buff for these guys. However, not to the level of almost all of their peer units in other codexes. The 7th Ed Mob Rule, tries to, and fails totally, to fix the issue its trying to deal with both in terms of game rules and fluff.


For Boyz, the new Mob Rule is a total Gong Show. Straight up loss of fearlessness, straight up loss of higher Ld values (remember, there are things that check Ld other than morale tests, and boyz are now dramatically more vulnerable to them.) It's like having the old rule for taking extra wounds when losing combat while fearless, but not ever having fearless, and having the extra wounds apply to any and all morale checks (pinning, fear, shooting, etc. Stormboyz will take them when they have to test for morale after losing so many models for their new broken rokkit pack.). In fact, at low model counts, its fully possible for the wounds taken from mob rule to force the boyz to take another mob rule test and lose even more models, in some circumstances.

The only clear range that boyz benefit from the new mob rule is at extremely small number were the old mob rule would not even give a Ld boost (1-7 models remaining), but this it only for simply passing the morale check. At such a small number, the usability of the group relies heavily on maintaining their already diminished number and Mob Rule does the exact opposite. A bad roll, and mob rule will kill so many boyz the squad's usefulness is eliminated.

This is exactly the break down I was rolling around in my head. I was curious to see the numbers to back it up.

Perfect Organism wrote:

TableTopJosh wrote:
The changes are whatever, a slight buff there a slight nerf there, its just sitting weird because its not what must of us were expecting.

Really? Because to me, this release looks rather predictable...

They changed invulnerable saves to be consistent with other armies.

Other armies have 0 ability to buy invulnerable saves? Since when?

Toburk wrote:
-The 7th Ed Mob Rule was introduced to fix the issue of poor leadership in Ork's elite units, namely Nobs and Meganobs. The new rule does improve these two units with their low model counts in a non-insignificant manner, but it totally breaks the rule created in the 4th Ed codex in terms of how it works with boyz mobs.

For Nobs/Meganobs they, in essence, gain a pseudo higher Ld value. They can still be pinned/fall back/be swept, but it occurs at a lower rate than their LD 7 would imply. Depending on circumstance (if they have a bosspole/have a character/are in combat) they are worse/similar/better than Ld10, but still don't have fearless. Meganobs in particular can expect to take no wounds from the D6 hits most of the time.
All in all it's a buff for these guys. However, not to the level of almost all of their peer units in other codexes. The 7th Ed Mob Rule, tries to, and fails totally, to fix the issue its trying to deal with both in terms of game rules and fluff.

Again, a full 50% of the table does NOTHING for units under 10 models. Nothing. IC or not, you just fail.
1/6 only works in CC. So if your unit gets shot to pieces (because let's face it, a unit like MANZ losing in CC means things have gone horribly, horribly wrong already!) 2/3 of the table is useless to you.
The other 2/6 rolls only work if you added a character to your unit. And while adding ICs to units is certainly a good idea, unless you are literally 1-for-1ing your HQs to your other units you WILL end up with units that are on their own.

Mob Rule used to be reliable; it granted Fearless which you could always count on to keep your Orks in the fight and not running after getting shot. Now, it's not only completely unreliable (since it's a random table), it may not actually be able to do anything for you. It has stipulations and limitations. Coupled with the FACT that you are now MORE likely to fail Ld checks (because a) you are no longer Fearless and actually have to take checks and b) your LD is no longer getting boosted for being in the 8-10 model range) and Mob Rule took a shot straight to the fungus. I can really only compare it to Instinctive Behaviour in how badly it got frelled over.

In fact, at low model counts, its fully possible for the wounds taken from mob rule to force the boyz to take another mob rule test and lose even more models, in some circumstances.

According to what?

Can you explain in detail please

 matphat wrote:
It seems like the new mob rule would be VERY easy to math hammer if one were so inclined and knew how (I don't) for most of the obvious circumstances. After that, it seems like it would be a small jump to compare it to the old Mob Rule.

Any takers?

Sample unit: seven or fewer orks, T 4, 6+ save, led by nob with bosspole, not locked in combat.

Old rule:

~58% chance to pass Ld test first try.
~25% chance to pass on second try, taking an average of 0.83 wounds.
~17% chance to fail second try and take the wound anyway.

New rule:
~58% chance to pass Ld test first try.
~23% chance to get the 2-3 result with the bosspole re-roll, passing the test and taking an average of 1.46 wounds.
~19% chance to fail the test, but at least you don't take any extra wounds.

Better armour saves reduce your chances of taking wounds, but they do so equally for both the old and new rules.

Bikers take only two thirds the wounds that T 4 orks do.

Overall it's a nerf to large units and no real benefit to even the small ones.

In practice and taking advantage of the new mechanics introduced to the codex (Boy mob FNP, 5++), the new Mob Rule will be much less detrimental than people are making it out to be.

 44Ronin wrote:

In fact, at low model counts, its fully possible for the wounds taken from mob rule to force the boyz to take another mob rule test and lose even more models, in some circumstances.

According to what?

Can you explain in detail please

It's not possible: once the wounds have been taken the test counts as having been passed