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 Perfect Organism wrote:

 Zog Off wrote:
They should have given the Big Mek and option to take a Deffkopta.

That would have been fantastic.

I'm holding out a faint hope that they will release a supplement with a relic deffkopta.

I'm hoping we eventually get some sort of Meks workshop supplement with the ability to customise the hell out of vehicles, wargear and bikes/koptas. I reckon it'd sell like hotcakes and be great for converting/modelling.

I can't believe they took away cybork body invulnerable saves. It was the only semi-reliable defensive gear Ork characters could take...

My warboss used to be a big scary brute that would clobber anyone if he got a chance to attack. So many times it would come down to succeeding one 5++ to keep him alive, and at ten points it was a fair upgrade. Now you HAVE to take the expensive and restricting mega armour to even have a chance of survival against most melee-oriented characters, assuming the opponent doesn't have AP2 or rending.

And then you need a delivery device.

Mork/Gorkanaut could be a good one since odds are they wont die until the MANz inside + boss could reach something. Oh wait they arent assault vehicles.....in an assaulty army...nevermind.

I get the feeling they nerfed warbosses the same way they nerfed Swarmlords. Space marines couldnt kill them very easily so they got nerfed. Swarmlord wasnt even a problem because hes so damn slow and never had a ranged invul save, now hes easier since its a 3+ armor.

Bah, such a tease GW, I know I got the codex early but no matter how much I hammer this button it just takes me to black library front page:

 Bonzofever wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
12 In a wagon average . 4 hits.
My phone is going full slow tonight please excuse format errors.
anyhow that is 3 hp on av12
3.55HP on av11
2.22Hp On av13

What I'd like to see is how TBs compare to Mekgunz like Kannonz when shooting (with ammo runtz, so 1 reroll to hit per game for each gun).
Also, Mel talked earlier about a KFF Big Mek in Mega-Armor with Da Lucky Stikk to have a T7 2+/5++ wall to protect your unit.

What do you people think of that list? I don't have the exact cost since I don't have the codex but, hey. An idea for starters, around 1,500 points.

HQ
---
1x Big Mek (KFF, MA, KMB, LS)
1x Big Mek (KFF, MA, KMB)

Elite
---
10x Tankbustas in Trukk

Troops
---
10x Gretchins + Runtherd
10x Gretchins + Runtherd
10x Gretchins + Runtherd
10x Gretchins + Runtherd

Fast Attack
---
5x Buggy (RL)
5x Buggy (RL)
5x Buggy (RL)

Heavy Support
---
5x Kanon (+10 gretchins, +5 ammo runts)
5x Kanon (+10 gretchins, +5 ammo runts)
5x Smasha Gun (+10 gretchins, +5 ammo runts)

Fortifications
---
1x Aegis Defense Line (Quadgun)


Any thoughts?

ya needz some more ladz in dere. grotz iz too weedy fer proppa kombat.

I have no idea if this has been asked before, but...

Can a Warboss take those Repair tools? You know, just so we can make actual Mekbosses maybe?

Yeah, those gretchin are going to be disintegrated immediately

Do Deffkoptas still have Buzzsaws, or are they armed with Killsaws now?
Has the BigBomm on the Deffkoptas changed at all?

 Vasarto wrote:
So, from what I have seen so far from myself and comments from others.

The Bad and Terrible:

Wazdakka and Oldzogwart removed: They were removed because no one used them, because they were badly designed and none of the codex was built to make a good army for them....

No they were removed because GW got their butts handed to them in a nuisance lawsuit; and feels it's perfectly reasonable to punish the players for their feth-ups.

I've not seen anybody mention them yet, do 'ard boyz still exist in any form? Either as an upgrade to 'eavy armour for boys or as an entry in and of themselves?

 Koppo wrote:
I've not seen anybody mention them yet, do 'ard boyz still exist in any form? Either as an upgrade to 'eavy armour for boys or as an entry in and of themselves?

Yep, they got comfirmed that they still exist. And hell, they're not restricted to one unit per army anymore!

Some people were wondering about speed freaks. A trukk based speed freaks could get a huge boost if you take the formation for every turn waaghs, and the relic going for two warlord chart rolls. IMO, trukk squads are better than they were before, and 1/3 of the time, you'll get fearless when you call a waaagh, which will be every turn.

Zog Off wrote:I'm just trying to figure out the least expensive, least deadly way to get Ork Boyz to objectives - units of 30 Ork Boyz on foot or units of 20 Ork Boyz in a Battlewagon.

The thought of running Battlewagons without Kustom Force Fields gives me so much anxiety, but, with the 7th edition rules, we would have to buy one KFF per Battlewagon. That's expensive if you want to buy enough Battlewagon for target saturation!

I was trying to see if there were other benefits, like keeping the Ork Boyz safe when the Battlewagon explodes. If Perfect Organism is right about the wording, the answer seems to be "no."

Couldn't you run a mek on a bike with the KFF between two wagons in a unit of bikes? Start behind them just within 6", then turbo-boost for cover turn 1 to be flush with them with a 3+ cover save, then you can cut back behind them to block LoS. Should be relatively easy to keep two battlewagons in cover with a single big mek.

I'll have to wait until I've got the codex in my hands, I guess, but I don't know if my current army will be very effective this edition. I used to take several units of trukk boys and battlewagons.
Trukk boys seem downright suicidal now that their transport explodes at S4 and they take even more casualties for failing the pinning test/morale test.
Can't cover the advancing vehicles with a kustom force field anymore either.
Still no options for deep striking except for zaggstruck and they can't charge afterwards (not to mention how ludicrously expensive storm boys are to collect).
Looted wagons are out unless you pay for DLC.
Battlewagons are more expensive.
Seems like it's bikes, buggies and koptas or nothing now. And they're all competing for the same slot, with dakkajets too. What's a speedfreak to do?

 big mek crazygit wrote:

 Koppo wrote:
I've not seen anybody mention them yet, do 'ard boyz still exist in any form? Either as an upgrade to 'eavy armour for boys or as an entry in and of themselves?

Yep, they got comfirmed that they still exist. And hell, they're not restricted to one unit per army anymore!

Cheers. The limit being removed has given me ideas...

Does anyone know what the base cost of a non MA warboss is? Wondering if it's worth taking one just for the waaagh rule

 Jambles wrote:
Battlewagons are more expensive.

Unless you take a couple of options. Aside from cheaper deffrollas and killcannons, don't battlewagons make up for the price increase already by taking 4 rokkits?

 Multimoog wrote:
Does anyone know what the base cost of a non MA warboss is? Wondering if it's worth taking one just for the waaagh rule

I did see that his stats are unchanged, and he still costs the same with no extra upgrades whatsoever.

im not even sure if dakkajets are worth it anymore. Theyre really easy to kill and only shoot 9 S6 TL shots, they were worth it before because on a WAAAAGH! they could absolutely wreck something. Now they shoot 1 extra shot.....? Yes its 1 per gun but still...wat? talk about a nerf to a unit that didnt need a nerf. Admittedly they werent bad before, but they werent auto-include good either.

Mob Rule Math
or: the mathematics of a nerf

Previous Mob Rule: LD = number of models in unit. Units of 11 or more models are Fearless.
New Mob Rule: On failed LD check, roll on chart:
1: If in CC, pass. Otherwise, fail.
2-3: If character in unit, take d6 S4 AP- hits and pass. Otherwise, fail.
4-6: If unit size > 10, take d6 S4 AP- hits and pass. Otherwise, fail.


Legend:
LD:Leadership of the unit #: Number of models in the unit CH:Unit has a character CC:Unit is in close combat BP:Unit has a bosspole NC:Unit has no character R: Regular check; unit is not in CC NBP: Unit has no bosspole EFF LD: Effective leadership of the unit

New Mob Rule
LD # CH:CC:BP CH:CC:NBP CH:R:BP CH:R:NBP NC:CC:BP NC:CC:NBP NC:R:BP NC:R:NBP 7 10+ 100% 100% ~98.8% ~86.1% ~90.7% ~86.1% ~89.6% ~79.2% 7 9- ~89.6% ~79.1% ~81.5% ~72.2% ~71.1% ~65.3% ~58.3% ~58.3% 8 10+ 100% 100% ~99.2% ~90.7% ~93.8% ~90.7% ~93.1% ~86.1% 8 9- ~93.0% ~86.1% ~87.7% ~81.5% ~80.1% ~76.9% ~72.2% ~72.2% 9 10+ 100% 100% ~99.5% ~94.4% ~96.3% ~94.4% ~95.8% ~91.7% 9 9- ~95.8% ~91.6% ~92.6% ~88.9% ~88.4% ~86.1% ~83.3% ~83.3%
Note 1 - Leadership 8/9 numbers in the "No Character" categories are included for completeness sake only. If you do not have a character in the unit, your LD will be 7 at best.
Note 2 - The NC:__:BP categories apply exclusively to Flash Gitz as they are the only unit that can have a bosspole without a character being present.


Old Mob Rule
LD # Eff Ld w/o Bosspole w/ Bosspole 7 11+ 10 100% 100% 7 10 10 ~91.7% ~99.3% 7 9 9 ~83.3% ~97.2% 7 8 8 ~72.2% ~92.3% 7 7- 7 ~58.3% ~82.6% 8 11+ 10 100% 100% 8 10 10 ~91.7% ~99.3% 8 9 9 ~83.3% ~97.2% 8 8- 8 ~72.2% ~92.3% 9 11+ 10 100% 100% 9 10 10 ~91.7% ~99.3% 9 9- 9 ~83.3% ~97.2%

Zog dat, wut 'er it meen?
For units of 11 or more models, the new Mob Rule is a straight up nerf. Even when the 100% chance to pass remains, the new chart usually costs you d6 S4 AP- hits. (Guaranteed if your unit isn't in CC.)
For units of exactly 10 models the new rule is better in exactly 1 circumstance: 10 or more models, with a character, in close combat. Old rule had a ~91.7%/~99.3% chance though, so not a huge increase. Still usually taking d6 S4 AP- hits from the new rule.
For units of 8-9 models, the increased leadership from the old rule wins out, especially with a bosspole.
For units of 7 or less models, the old bosspole wins out unless your unit is in close combat, where the new rule has an edge.

Corollaries:
1. For the new rule, adding a character (even without a bosspole) to a unit generally greatly increases it's chance to make a LD check. When in close combat, this can actually push the unit's chance above what it was with the old rule.
2. The new rule will allow you to pass tests you would automatically fail. If you lose combat by 20 (besides being completely frelled), you CAN still pass and stick in combat with the new Mob Rule, which you couldn't do before.
3. Close combat numbers for the new mob rule chart assume a -0 modifier; obviously this is not actually possible. The actual numbers will skew slightly down, as your LD check drops to Combat Resolution.


So there you go. The math is done. Aside from a few circumstances, the new mob rule is, generally speaking, a nerf. Not only do your chances generally go down, but you are also usually taking the D6 S4 AP- hits when you fail in the first place (much more likely now given LD doesn't increase). While MANZ may not mind all that much, your elite t-shirt wearers (tankbustas, lootas, kommandos, flashgitz, etc) WILL mind.

You can take 'eavy Armor, and with the alternate FoC you can take 9 squads of Trukk Boyz if you really wanted to. I am going to try and take 6 with as many Tankbusta Trukks as I can to pop open transports and see how that works out.

My other thought is having some durable firepower out on the table, like Buggies or Big Gunz in cover or with a KFF. Then have trukks come on later from reserves to scream across the board, hopefully after the bombardment has done what it needs to do. Trakta and Smasha Gunz might do the trick, add a Painboy and Mek in MA with KFF to each squad of Artillery just for the lolz of almost never taking wounds due to shooting

decker_cky wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
Battlewagons are more expensive.

Unless you take a couple of options. Aside from cheaper deffrollas and killcannons, don't battlewagons make up for the price increase already by taking 4 rokkits?

Would be great if I hadn't already modeled them with big shootas, lol... The cheaper deffrolla is a mixed blessing since it got nerfed.

To be fair, the battlewagons are only slightly more expensive than before if I take them with the same loadout, so that particular change isn't a very big deal. Maybe it's time to bring in a second or third battlewagon and drop the trukks entirely?

I think I'm going to start converting a Big Mek on a bike with a KFF soon. I've got some suitable force field worky bits from the Mek Gun kit and a few unbuilt bikes lying around, so it should be a pretty easy kitbash.

Is there any obvious weapon upgrade or suchlike which you would really want on a big mek biker? It doesn't seem likely that you would ever really want to get stuck into close combat with him and you might as well rely on the bike guns for shooting.

Big Mek with bike and kff is the only way to give multiple vehicles a save now if you dont want the naut that can take it. HIde him behind a wagon or a naut/stompa and he'll be tremendously safer.

I think like in the old dex every ork player had a Wazdakka conversion, the new dex every ork player will have a kff on bike conversion. Possibly SAG too.

Not gonna lie, i got some comical looking ideas for a kff on bike. So many wires, pipes, spheres, and lighting-bolts jumping around the bike chassis lol.

Indeed, in classical balancing style the highly popular naked battlewagon has been "nerfed" while most upgrades have been made cheaper. End result is "real orky" battlewagons stay the same or are cheaper.

Just realized, i have a biker that would convert into a KFF just by adding a few of the grotprod bits from the grots box and putting a Mek-like head on it.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Big Mek with bike and kff is the only way to give multiple vehicles a save now if you dont want the naut that can take it. HIde him behind a wagon or a naut/stompa and he'll be tremendously safer.

I think like in the old dex every ork player had a Wazdakka conversion, the new dex every ork player will have a kff on bike conversion. Possibly SAG too.

Not gonna lie, i got some comical looking ideas for a kff on bike. So many wires, pipes, spheres, and lighting-bolts jumping around the bike chassis lol.

Sounds dead proppa

What is the maximum size for Warbikers, cost per Warbiker, and cost for Nob in the Warbiker unit again?

And how does that compare to giving Warbikes to Nobz?

I wonder how Warbikers compare to Nob Bikers with the drop in points for Warbikers.

Do you have any pics of the mek gunz next to stuff for scale shots please? Also what size base would they be on, 40mm or 60mm? Thanks in advance!

 Zog Off wrote:
What is the maximum size for Warbikers, cost per Warbiker, and cost for Nob in the Warbiker unit again?

And how does that compare to giving Warbikes to Nobz?

I wonder how Warbikers compare to Nob Bikers with the drop in points for Warbikers.

18 pts for bikers vs 45 for nob bikers. I believe you can take units of 15 bikers.

decker_cky wrote:

 Zog Off wrote:
What is the maximum size for Warbikers, cost per Warbiker, and cost for Nob in the Warbiker unit again?

And how does that compare to giving Warbikes to Nobz?

I wonder how Warbikers compare to Nob Bikers with the drop in points for Warbikers.

18 pts for bikers vs 45 for nob bikers. I believe you can take units of 15 bikers.

Warbikers I think are a no-brainer for nob bikers, unless your short on fast attack options.

2 models, 2 wounds, 36pts vs 1 model, 2 wounds, 45pts.

You get double the ammount of fire power and more bodies on the field.