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 Vineheart01 wrote:
Ork FoC is pointless. Rather take 4 HQs and 4 troops with normal FoC requirements and be able to field 6 elite/fa/heavy.

If the Ork FoC increased elite/fa/heavy by 1 as well, it would be very much appreciated and well received by us orkies. As it is, since our troops are kinda pointless unless you field so many it makes the game take FOREVER (and even worse now with mob rule chart) that the 9 troops really does not help.

Unless you're playing at an event that limits the number of CAD you can have. Which I believe Nova/BAO are doing.

Is there any detail on how Waaagh! interacts with bike units? Does it literally just say 'can charge even if they ran in the movement phase' or something like that with no mention of turbo-boosting?

 pretre wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Ork FoC is pointless. Rather take 4 HQs and 4 troops with normal FoC requirements and be able to field 6 elite/fa/heavy.

If the Ork FoC increased elite/fa/heavy by 1 as well, it would be very much appreciated and well received by us orkies. As it is, since our troops are kinda pointless unless you field so many it makes the game take FOREVER (and even worse now with mob rule chart) that the 9 troops really does not help.

Unless you're playing at an event that limits the number of CAD you can have. Which I believe Nova/BAO are doing.

But playing at 'events' isn't the normal way of this game, so shouldn't be an issue for the average gamer.

 streamdragon wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:


Except that tank busts are at least as good as them at Elite.

Exhaust cloud is an improvement. Bikes will generally net at least a 5+ cover simply by existing on the average table. Being able to move up to a 3+ by going flat-out is much better than being 4+ all the time. In the game I played Monday, they were oppressively powerful.

The old mob rule wasn't even worth noting for most units last edition. Only ork boyz gained any benefit. By the time most things have forced a panic or break test, nobs and such were down to 7 or fewer models anyway, meaning they still tested on their regular LD7.

They lost Cybork, which isn't a huge issue. They should always be in a unit with a pain boy, giving them a FNP save that is only ignored by S10. Similarly, they will pop 90% of the other characters in the game with a single successful hit. Unless you are running to tyrants or Lysander, the war boss is still most likely going to survive and win a toe to toe fight. And he comes in at only about 115 points in mega armor or on a bike. The reroll from the lucky stikk only improves the odds that all 4 of his attacks will hit and wound.

And 50% of the chart does help if there is a boss style character in the unit. Even taking those d6 S4 hits, boy units will lose on average 2 orks. Any unit with a save is likely to lose only 1. Rerolling X number of times will improve the odds of getting that 1 - 3. For a unit like flash gitz and nobs, they will be making it almost every time. Previously, they would have simply run.

1. Tankbustas are good, true. That doesnt make HS not the most crowded slot in the book though. (HQ being the second.)

It is the most crowded in Space Marines. It is the most crowded in Astra. Why does that matter? If you want lootas, take lootas. It isn't that hard to get a second FOC and if you need more than 6 heavies, that is a difficult issue to resolve.

2. Exhaust cloud is a nerf. How many turns a game are you turboboosting? Not as many as youre not, so the save going down is a loss. Oppresively powerful? You're full of squig.

Exhaust isn't a nerf, it is a sideways move. It is better when turbo boosting and worse when not. As far as how often you should be turbo boosting, every turn that you aren't about to charge. Take a unit of 8 nobs and do the math. A 3+ right up until the turn they charge is brutally good.

3. Losing our only source of invulnerable save is not a big deal? You're serious? Please tell me you're not serious?

That and the change in the KFF are the two biggest nerds. They are both far outweighed by the improvements.

4. Correction: 2/6 of the chart depends on a character. Who still causes d6 hits to your unit. Your 15 man Tankbusta unit is going to find themselves without half the table real damn quick. The other 1/6 requires you to be in CC. And seriously, there's math that basically shows how wrong you are. The old Bosspole was immeasureably better, because rerolling a LD check gave even your LD7 unit about an 80% chance of passing at any time.

Take a second to figure that out. If a 15 man squad of tankbustas gets to the point where they lose half the table, then they wouldn't have had any benefit under the old mob rule either. Below 10 they lose fearless. Now, under the current system, they take their leadership test, then roll on the chart, with a 50% chance of passing, then a reroll if you have a boss pole. For units like tankbustas or nobs, the new table is much better. At least it does something.

I dont play at events. Never have that much time to dedicate at once without taking days off and forget that since i know its nothing but a rule-bashing competition not a game. Lot of friends DO play at events and the way they complain of coming across "that guy" so many times im surprised they keep going back (theres like 4-5 around me, forget the names of most of them but one is the Bug Eater in Omaha, NE). Most of the players at my FLGS are in the same boat as me, only about 1/3 of us do events (out of ~12 people that play).

And i actually was just wondering that turbo-boost and charge comment myself. If thats true, oooo man our bikers will be impossible to out run lol.

EDIT: Exhaust cloud was a nerf. Turn 1 is the only turn i ever turbo-boosted my nobz...period...after that they were always able to either charge or utterly destroy something with their dakka just outside charge range. 8 nobz is 24 S5 twinlinked shots. Thats quite a bit of dakka youre not using to get a +1 cover in a world of ignores cover glory. They are simply too strong of a unit to not shoot and/or charge instead of getting that +1 cover.
To be fair though, i think if they had it +1 cover if i moved at all would be a little ridiculous lol.

Did anyone else knotice but the Looted Wagons "Unit Composition" is 1 Gorkanaut. Wooo 37 point Gorkanaut with Deff rolla for 10 points. I'm in.

JK aside anyone else get the impression that the Looted Wagon may have been a rush job by GW. I'm not complaining, if it was proves they may actually listen to fans but it really should have been in the dex.

About every other page someone mentioned that.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
About every other page someone mentioned that.

Hey did anyone notice the composition for the Looted Wagon?

Vineheart01 wrote: Exhaust cloud was a nerf. Turn 1 is the only turn i ever turbo-boosted my nobz...period...after that they were always able to either charge or utterly destroy something with their dakka just outside charge range. 8 nobz is 24 S5 twinlinked shots. Thats quite a bit of dakka youre not using to get a +1 cover in a world of ignores cover glory. They are simply too strong of a unit to not shoot and/or charge instead of getting that +1 cover.
To be fair though, i think if they had it +1 cover if i moved at all would be a little ridiculous lol.

Thats it though, you are turbo boosting first turn, charging second and subsequent. 8 nobs aren't setting the world on fire with dakkaguns. They are a nice addition, no doubt, but if you think you will be eating enough shots to get through your AS4+ T5 and FNP 5+, then turboboost is a good alternative. You still get to shoot on turn 2 after the turbo boost and gain the benefit of that 3+ on the opponents turn. It isn't much of a change, particularly since the unit will often be getting a 5+ cover anyway (cover is ubiquitous).

So a 15 squad of bikers with nob and pk is 305, i wonder how much a PB on a bike and a warboss with pk on a bike is in the new codex.

 PhillyT wrote:
Take a second to figure that out. If a 15 man squad of tankbustas gets to the point where they lose half the table, then they wouldn't have had any benefit under the old mob rule either. Below 10 they lose fearless. Now, under the current system, they take their leadership test, then roll on the chart, with a 50% chance of passing, then a reroll if you have a boss pole. For units like tankbustas or nobs, the new table is much better. At least it does something.

I don't think you are understanding his argument. He literally ran all the numbers and even put them into a nice chart for us.

The new mob rule is still a nerf for small units because the nerf to the bosspole is greater than any possible benefit one could get from the new mob rule table. Meaning, small squad are more likely to run in 7th than they were with the 4th Ed codex.

It's a pretty huge change in cc tho..they lost half of their saves vs power weapons and all of their saves vs instant death. Nobz are gone as a strong unit

TableTopJosh wrote:
So a 15 squad of bikers with nob and pk is 305, i wonder how much a PB on a bike and a warboss with pk on a bike is in the new codex.

Yeah, it is like Warbikers got 'Buy 10, get 5 free!'.

TableTopJosh wrote:
So a 15 squad of bikers with nob and pk is 305, i wonder how much a PB on a bike and a warboss with pk on a bike is in the new codex.

The warbosses and big meks bikes dropped to 25 points (from 40).

TableTopJosh wrote:
So a 15 squad of bikers with nob and pk is 305, i wonder how much a PB on a bike and a warboss with pk on a bike is in the new codex.

75 and 110, I believe.

Sounds like you can really flood the board with bikes. Hmm.

 Toburk wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Take a second to figure that out. If a 15 man squad of tankbustas gets to the point where they lose half the table, then they wouldn't have had any benefit under the old mob rule either. Below 10 they lose fearless. Now, under the current system, they take their leadership test, then roll on the chart, with a 50% chance of passing, then a reroll if you have a boss pole. For units like tankbustas or nobs, the new table is much better. At least it does something.

I don't think you are understanding his argument. He literally ran all the numbers and even put them into a nice chart for us.

The new mob rule is still a nerf for small units because the nerf to the bosspole is greater than any possible benefit one could get from the new mob rule table. Meaning, small squad are more likely to run in 7th than they were with the 4th Ed codex.

Except that it isn't. A unit of elite models, like nobs, flashgitz, and tankbustas, are still more likely to pass the test by 6% under his calculation. Most of the time, when they need to take the test, they will be passing 89% of the time versus 83% under the old rule (LD7, nob, boss pole). The rest of the results are statistically similar and don't have much of an impact on the over all results.

Left uncalculated were the rare times they lose combat. Rolling on the chart eliminates any deficit that might have been accumulated since they simply pass. No matter how much you lose by, you have a 50% of just passing and another try after.

 PhillyT wrote:

It is the most crowded in Space Marines. It is the most crowded in Astra. Why does that matter? If you want lootas, take lootas. It isn't that hard to get a second FOC and if you need more than 6 heavies, that is a difficult issue to resolve.

Exhaust isn't a nerf, it is a sideways move. It is better when turbo boosting and worse when not. As far as how often you should be turbo boosting, every turn that you aren't about to charge. Take a unit of 8 nobs and do the math. A 3+ right up until the turn they charge is brutally good.

That and the change in the KFF are the two biggest nerds. They are both far outweighed by the improvements.

Take a second to figure that out. If a 15 man squad of tankbustas gets to the point where they lose half the table, then they wouldn't have had any benefit under the old mob rule either. Below 10 they lose fearless. Now, under the current system, they take their leadership test, then roll on the chart, with a 50% chance of passing, then a reroll if you have a boss pole. For units like tankbustas or nobs, the new table is much better. At least it does something.

1. My point was that the 1 PPM drop wasn't enough to offset the nerf of moving to heavy support. Taking multiple FOCs isn't an issue, except in any tournament that bans multiple FOCS; having said that I admit I don't play in tournaments, but multiple FOCs still come with their own costs. Lots of costs to drop 1 PPM with no other discernable buff. (not that lootas really needed any.)

2. I'm not sure how "lost it except in specific circumstances" isn't a nerf. "You can still jink!" I didn't need to jink, what did I gain by now having to jink? Worse shooting. That's not a buff. Better turbo boosting is hardly enough of a justification.

3. "Two biggest nerfs" now, "not a big deal" before. It is a big deal, and it is a big nerf. Invulnerable saves are important, no mandatory, for keeping characters alive. We more than most armies are dependant on characters, since 2/3 of our new "DON'T RUN AWAY" rule depends on a character being there. Not having those saves further complicates an already serious nerf.

4. I have. It shows pretty clearly that without adding a character to your unit of Tankbustas, the new mob rule is no sort of benefit, and is in fact a nerf. Adding a character to your unit? You would have been better off with both the old version of Mob Rule and Bosspole.

Above 10 models (11+) and you used to be Fearless instead of counting on taking d6 S4 hits to pass checks.
Under 10 models but above your best LD, you benefitted from increased LD and a reroll from the bosspole if around.
Under 10 models and below your best LD, with no bosspole, you in exactly the same boat you used to be in, except for ONE single specific circumstance: In close combat you can pass mob rule on a '1'. If you are not in close combat, the new mob rule does nothing for you.

 pretre wrote:
Sounds like you can really flood the board with bikes. Hmm.

Yeah, it does actually.

Unfortunately my wazdakka conversion will never be fielded as Wazdakka again but im still bringing da warboss on da bike and probably some meks too.

 Kirasu wrote:
It's a pretty huge change in cc tho..they lost half of their saves vs power weapons and all of their saves vs instant death. Nobz are gone as a strong unit

Even if they hadn't lost cybork bodies, (new) normal bikers seem to do better at the (old) nob bikers' role now. 50 points for 2 wounds with a 5+ invulnerable or 54 points for 3 wounds without an invulnerable, but with triple the firepower and more than twice as many attacks?

Traditional build:
Warboss (Bike, Power Klaw, Cybork Body) - 130
1 Nob with Power Klaw, CB and Bike - 75
2 Nobs with CB & Bikes - 100
1 Painboy with CB & Bike - 80
TOTAL: 385 points

New Build:
Warboss (Bike, Power Klaw) - 110
1 Painboy with bike - 75
1 Warbiker Nob with power klaw - 53
8 Warbikers - 144
TOTAL: 382

That's almost 50% more wounds and more than twice the firepower for the loss of an invulnerable save. The unit wrecks vehicles and monsters just as well as it did before and is much better at cutting through light infantry.

@Melcavuk not sure it was mentioned but to battlewagons still have access to extra armour? If so at what cost?

Good call, Perfect Organism!

Exhaust isn't a nerf, it is a sideways move. It is better when turbo boosting and worse when not. As far as how often you should be turbo boosting, every turn that you aren't about to charge. Take a unit of 8 nobs and do the math. A 3+ right up until the turn they charge is brutally good.

No, its a massive kick in the nuts.

You don't buy Warbikes to assault with them, they're dakka machines and in CC, they're slightly better than slugga boys for 3x the cost.

 Dakkamite wrote:

Exhaust isn't a nerf, it is a sideways move. It is better when turbo boosting and worse when not. As far as how often you should be turbo boosting, every turn that you aren't about to charge. Take a unit of 8 nobs and do the math. A 3+ right up until the turn they charge is brutally good.

No, its a massive kick in the nuts.

You don't buy Warbikes to assault with them, they're dakka machines and in CC, they're slightly better than slugga boys for 3x the cost.

Unless you want to change the way you approach things and look at them as a ton of ablative wounds for your warbosses and painboy.

 Dakkamite wrote:

Exhaust isn't a nerf, it is a sideways move. It is better when turbo boosting and worse when not. As far as how often you should be turbo boosting, every turn that you aren't about to charge. Take a unit of 8 nobs and do the math. A 3+ right up until the turn they charge is brutally good.

No, its a massive kick in the nuts.

You don't buy Warbikes to assault with them, they're dakka machines and in CC, they're slightly better than slugga boys for 3x the cost.

You don't take nob bikers as dakka machines. That's just pissing points away. The dakka on nob bikers is a nice side benefit, but they're a combat unit through and through.

Normal warbikers are way better because they're way cheaper.

Thats Nobz. And Nobz are a combat unit because power klaws.

Unless you want to change the way you approach things and look at them as a ton of ablative wounds for your warbosses and painboy.

The damage their nasty guns can do is often better than the damage a warboss could put out. So they can be ablative wounds that straight up multiply his firepower too.

Yep and with turbo-boosting you go from:
20/36 hits to 11/36 hits. A bit worse, but still nasty.

 Dakkamite wrote:

Exhaust isn't a nerf, it is a sideways move. It is better when turbo boosting and worse when not. As far as how often you should be turbo boosting, every turn that you aren't about to charge. Take a unit of 8 nobs and do the math. A 3+ right up until the turn they charge is brutally good.

No, its a massive kick in the nuts.

You don't buy Warbikes to assault with them, they're dakka machines and in CC, they're slightly better than slugga boys for 3x the cost.

The dakka in a nob unit is the same as normal bikers for 3x the price. Nob bikers still get the rounds they charge to dump shots (though that is risky since you may lose your charge due to killing the enemy unless you are right on top of them.

And the damage output for nob bikers is absurd. They are hyper fast, insanely durable, and viciously lethal in CC. They are also fire magnets, meaning those 3+ saves are awesome.

I run 36 bikers (three units of 12) plus 8 nob bikers. With 3+ cover, they will now be even nastier since they can zip across the board, shoot then charge. What isn't to love?

As far as builds, I run three power klaws, 1 big choppa, and 2 normal nobs plus the pain boy and the war boss. Total PK attacks on the charge: 17.

 pretre wrote:
Yep and with turbo-boosting you go from:
20/36 hits to 11/36 hits. A bit worse, but still nasty.

That's standard Jink. Turbo-Boost prevents all firing.

 pretre wrote:
Yep and with turbo-boosting you go from:
20/36 hits to 11/36 hits. A bit worse, but still nasty.

Just above half is "a bit" now? Say it for what it is man.

Edit: 45% loss, to be exact. For 0 gain.