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Perfect Organism wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Yep and with turbo-boosting you go from:
20/36 hits to 11/36 hits. A bit worse, but still nasty.

That's standard Jink. Turbo-Boost prevents all firing.

Good call. I miswrote.

streamdragon wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Yep and with turbo-boosting you go from:
20/36 hits to 11/36 hits. A bit worse, but still nasty.

Just above half is "a bit" now? Say it for what it is man.

Yep. A bit. Considering how many extra dakkaguns are going to be in the squad now.

Perfect's build was 10 Dakkaguns for the new version vs 5 in the old. So twice as many shots. Guess what that means.

Hey, the flat 4+ was a nice easy thing to have. But it was often somewhat redundant since, once again, most units have a 5+ cover from SOMETHING. Now, our boyz at least get the option to ignore 2/3 the wounds that manage to get through our T5 and then we toss another 1/3 from FNP. Nob bikers are crazy tough now. They always were of course, but they now toss 16% more of the wounds that used to get through.

Nobody will say the loss of fearless isn't going to be felt. Or the loss of KFF projecting from vehicles. But when you combine all the other things (dedicated transports for key units, Tankbustas huge improvement, bikers costs dropping by 30%) you have a much improved army. And best of all, the here we go and waaagh rules will make this army.

i like perfect's build. Larger games = more warbikers too.

My usual nob unit was ~600 including the warboss. Using warbikers i could probably field the entire warbiker cap and still save money lol.

Yeah, with the boss and pain boy mine scraps 600 points, but it will eat an entire army's shooting for two turns and still have models enough to crush most things in CC while offering cover for the rest of the army (by soaking up all that shooting).

Granted, a 15 man unit can do something similar, but all them power klaws! All that fluffiness!

Hey Melcavuk,

I didn't see this asked but what is the cost of the wierdboy and Big Mek? Any changes?

Thanks again for all your work in regards to sharing this info. It really is appreciated.

Something to remember...the big mek can ride a bike with a KFF now. If you swapped him in, instead of the warboss, he'd give the entire unit a 5++ while they were en route to their target.

Though the warboss is still insanely awesome, he is definitely taking a backburner to the mek's in this edition of the codex.

Oooh, good call. That might be a good use for old Wazdakka models. Just add KFF.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Ork FoC is pointless. Rather take 4 HQs and 4 troops with normal FoC requirements and be able to field 6 elite/fa/heavy.

If the Ork FoC increased elite/fa/heavy by 1 as well, it would be very much appreciated and well received by us orkies. As it is, since our troops are kinda pointless unless you field so many it makes the game take FOREVER (and even worse now with mob rule chart) that the 9 troops really does not help.

The formation looses Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured. In their place are other benefits. Do you want to be able to call a WAAAGH! every turn from turn 2 and onwards, do you like your boyz to give the occasional hammer of wrath clobbering to their target? If so the ork formation is an improvement. Dakkajets will like the ork formation with 12 shots, BS 3 , TL and all.

*******

As for the warbikes, I prefer to give them a 3+ cover save in their first turn advancing. It is at this point they will face the highest amount of firepower. Afterwards they will hopefully have wrecked a key element in the opponents firebase. Then again I dream of driving a list with plenty of warbikes, stormboyz, two min sized meganobmobz in trukks and some backfield firesupport, besides the boyz. If the warbikes are highly durable, something else will get shot to ribbons - namely the stormboyz.

Hey, can one buy a BW for MANZ, a trukk for some flash gits unit and 20 boyz... and then let the boyz start in the BW, MANZ in trukk and flash gits go on foot? This way I can mount my boyz in a BW without spending a HS slot on it.

 greggles wrote:
Something to remember...the big mek can ride a bike with a KFF now. If you swapped him in, instead of the warboss, he'd give the entire unit a 5++ while they were en route to their target.

Though the warboss is still insanely awesome, he is definitely taking a backburner to the mek's in this edition of the codex.

For roughly the same price you get a 5+ invulnerable save on a unit that will generally already ge getting a 3+ or a 5+ cover save and you lose waagh, +1 WS +1 S +1 T +1 A +1 W +1 LD.

If that sounds like a good deal to you, go for it. Bikers are a unit that probably needs the KFF least in the entire army.

 PhillyT wrote:

 greggles wrote:
Something to remember...the big mek can ride a bike with a KFF now. If you swapped him in, instead of the warboss, he'd give the entire unit a 5++ while they were en route to their target.

Though the warboss is still insanely awesome, he is definitely taking a backburner to the mek's in this edition of the codex.

For roughly the same price you get a 5+ invulnerable save on a unit that will generally already ge getting a 3+ or a 5+ cover save and you lose waagh, +1 WS +1 S +1 T +1 A +1 W +1 LD.

If that sounds like a good deal to you, go for it. Bikers are a unit that probably needs the KFF least in the entire army.

mmmmm Sounds I need to put my big mek on a bike stat.

 PhillyT wrote:

 greggles wrote:
Something to remember...the big mek can ride a bike with a KFF now. If you swapped him in, instead of the warboss, he'd give the entire unit a 5++ while they were en route to their target.

Though the warboss is still insanely awesome, he is definitely taking a backburner to the mek's in this edition of the codex.

For roughly the same price you get a 5+ invulnerable save on a unit that will generally already ge getting a 3+ or a 5+ cover save and you lose waagh, +1 WS +1 S +1 T +1 A +1 W +1 LD.

If that sounds like a good deal to you, go for it. Bikers are a unit that probably needs the KFF least in the entire army.

Yeah, but the KFF isn't there to guard the bikes. It's there to cover the vehicles that support the bikes. The protection for the biker unit is just a bonus.

That could be useful. But when I have bikers, I don't take them for scads of close range big shoota cover. I take them to rip into the enemy deployment zone, divert his attention from the rest of the army, and crush them or tie them up in combat the next round.

A KFF in a battle wagon combined with terrain and with vehicles moving behind them, will often give some protection.

I just like to fly!

My biggest issue with the bikers new cover is the same one that skimmers and stuff have (used to have?) - if you go second, no cover saves for you!

Anyone who has had their bikers bombed, fail LD7, and then ZOOM off of the board, will agree this is a serious issue for them.

 Dakkamite wrote:
My biggest issue with the bikers new cover is the same one that skimmers and stuff have (used to have?) - if you go second, no cover saves for you!

Anyone who has had their bikers bombed, fail LD7, and then ZOOM off of the board, will agree this is a serious issue for them.

You can still declare a Jink even if you go second.....or am I missing something?

2xtap


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 steve1 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
My biggest issue with the bikers new cover is the same one that skimmers and stuff have (used to have?) - if you go second, no cover saves for you!

Anyone who has had their bikers bombed, fail LD7, and then ZOOM off of the board, will agree this is a serious issue for them.

You can still declare a Jink even if you go second.....or am I missing something?

no, the other guy is missing stuff.. a lot of stuff...


you can very much jink if you go 2nd,


trading an always on 4+ cover, for a 4+ cover you can always elect to take, that forces snap shots, and you can buff to 3+ if you dont mind 0 shots, is a sideways trade. especially given that you still have a 4+ armour, so you dont waste pts on a cover save you wont use against small arms fire that you get your 4+ against.

that the bikes went down 7pts is a HUGE buff, that the unit max size is 15 is also a huge buff.

 steve1 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
My biggest issue with the bikers new cover is the same one that skimmers and stuff have (used to have?) - if you go second, no cover saves for you!

Anyone who has had their bikers bombed, fail LD7, and then ZOOM off of the board, will agree this is a serious issue for them.

You can still declare a Jink even if you go second.....or am I missing something?

He is right. If you don't get first turn, you won't have the chance to go flat out, which means the other player will get a round of shooting where you get no cover at all.

On the flip side, you know you aren't going first, so deploy in cover or behind something else! You will be moving up to 24" anyway. You will get where you need to be!

 PhillyT wrote:

 steve1 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
My biggest issue with the bikers new cover is the same one that skimmers and stuff have (used to have?) - if you go second, no cover saves for you!

Anyone who has had their bikers bombed, fail LD7, and then ZOOM off of the board, will agree this is a serious issue for them.

You can still declare a Jink even if you go second.....or am I missing something?

He is right. If you don't get first turn, you won't have the chance to go flat out, which means the other player will get a round of shooting where you get no cover at all.

On the flip side, you know you aren't going first, so deploy in cover or behind something else! You will be moving up to 24" anyway. You will get where you need to be!

Has nobody read 7th? you dont need to move to jink anymore.

 PhillyT wrote:

 steve1 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
My biggest issue with the bikers new cover is the same one that skimmers and stuff have (used to have?) - if you go second, no cover saves for you!

Anyone who has had their bikers bombed, fail LD7, and then ZOOM off of the board, will agree this is a serious issue for them.

You can still declare a Jink even if you go second.....or am I missing something?

He is right. If you don't get first turn, you won't have the chance to go flat out, which means the other player will get a round of shooting where you get no cover at all.

On the flip side, you know you aren't going first, so deploy in cover or behind something else! You will be moving up to 24" anyway. You will get where you need to be!

You can jink even if you don't move. You just don't get the extra +1.

 pretre wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

 steve1 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
My biggest issue with the bikers new cover is the same one that skimmers and stuff have (used to have?) - if you go second, no cover saves for you!

Anyone who has had their bikers bombed, fail LD7, and then ZOOM off of the board, will agree this is a serious issue for them.

You can still declare a Jink even if you go second.....or am I missing something?

He is right. If you don't get first turn, you won't have the chance to go flat out, which means the other player will get a round of shooting where you get no cover at all.

On the flip side, you know you aren't going first, so deploy in cover or behind something else! You will be moving up to 24" anyway. You will get where you need to be!

You can jink even if you don't move. You just don't get the extra +1.

which is exactly the same cover you got before...


except you have 30% more models due to the 7pts decrease in cost.

so its a buff.

I think this is just a case of many people not realising Jink has changed.

 pretre wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

 steve1 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
My biggest issue with the bikers new cover is the same one that skimmers and stuff have (used to have?) - if you go second, no cover saves for you!

Anyone who has had their bikers bombed, fail LD7, and then ZOOM off of the board, will agree this is a serious issue for them.

You can still declare a Jink even if you go second.....or am I missing something?

He is right. If you don't get first turn, you won't have the chance to go flat out, which means the other player will get a round of shooting where you get no cover at all.

On the flip side, you know you aren't going first, so deploy in cover or behind something else! You will be moving up to 24" anyway. You will get where you need to be!

You can jink even if you don't move. You just don't get the extra +1.

Ahhh, very good.

So really people are crabbing about the loss of 50% of the goal hits we got last edition in exchange for a huge point drop and the potential for greater protection on a flat out?

First World problems!

Converted up this guy as i was thinking about a warboss gunfighter. They might actually be viable with the new gear and relics.

 PhillyT wrote:
Ahhh, very good.

So really people are crabbing about the loss of 50% of the goal hits we got last edition in exchange for a huge point drop and the potential for greater protection on a flat out?

First World problems!

Yeah, the real problem is that Ignore Cover exists not that we got nerfed. I think it was a buff based on points drop and the turbo-boost +1.

 easysauce wrote:
which is exactly the same cover you got before...


except you have 30% more models due to the 7pts decrease in cost.

so its a buff.

Regular warbikers got an unambiguous buff due to the cost reduction, which we all assumed would happen given the point reduction for bikes in every 6th Ed codex.

However, they still didn't get nearly the same degree of buff those other bikes received, which is pretty much the 7th Ed Ork codex in a nutshell. The whole thing reads almost like it was for mid 5th edition in terms of rules and power level.

You can simply elect to Jink, you don't have to more. Jinking gives you a a 4+ cover. Going Flatout with Warbikers will give you a 3+ Cover.

I think people really need to read the 7th Edition Jink Rules.

I agree with easysauce that Jink was a sideways move, but gaining a 7pt/model reduction and larger max squads was a massive improvement. Overally, they are much much better.

Move and Flatout Turn 1. Move, shoot, assault Turn 2.

Warbikers, warbikers everywhere.

 Toburk wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
which is exactly the same cover you got before...


except you have 30% more models due to the 7pts decrease in cost.

so its a buff.

Regular warbikers got an unambiguous buff due to the cost reduction, which we all assumed would happen given the point reduction for bikes in every 6th Ed codex.

However, they still didn't get nearly the same degree of buff those other bikes received, which is pretty much the 7th Ed Ork codex in a nutshell. The whole thing reads almost like it was for mid 5th edition in terms of rules and power level.

This book will pancake tyranids and many space marine builds. IS it a challenger to the Eldar and Tau? Probably not, though I can see it giving mose Tau lists fits, especially if you go crazy biker heavy.

 Toburk wrote:
Regular warbikers got an unambiguous buff due to the cost reduction, which we all assumed would happen given the point reduction for bikes in every 6th Ed codex.

However, they still didn't get nearly the same degree of buff those other bikes received, which is pretty much the 7th Ed Ork codex in a nutshell. The whole thing reads almost like it was for mid 5th edition in terms of rules and power level.

That's an awful lot of certainty for a book that isn't even out yet.

It is better than the Chaos and Tyranid books. At least as good as Dark Angels. Pretty solid compared to space marines. Asta Militarum is sort of tailor made to beat it. Eldar should be fine against Orks. I can see Tau struggle.

Did people think this would be the new Eldar?

Bikes are better though Tau suits and markerlights pulling off cover are still going to totally annihilate bike units. We have more of them and they are cheaper though I am not really sure it is as huge of a buff as people think.

considering that:

previously, bikers/stormboyz could not benifit from WAAAGH,

and now get that, and ere we go on top of it,

even if bikes cannot "run",

its a huge threat range increase... my whole army of 6pt boys can be in CC turn two realistically. Or at least enough of it to really, REALLY hurt some stuff, esp eldar and tau.

I was doing ok against these guys in 6th ed,
now that I actually have ranged solutions for vehicles and fliers, on top of CC boosts across the board, now that orks actually have "force" weapons, and a relic instant death weapon, we have some anti MC capability too...

while we lost the ability to give everyone 5-10 pts 5++ saves, we gained the ability to give "most" guys 5++ for cheaper.... I also found that my 5++ was pretty worthless, as i never made 2+ 5++ rolls against force weapons or str 10 attacks... even making one roll is super lucky.

gaining a guaranteed re rollable 2+ from the relic is far better then the warboss having a 5++

I saw that nerf coming... what other book can give every model a 5++?? ++ saves are supposed to be rare, yet we saw everyone and their mother gettting them. most books are lucky to get a 5++, eldar, daemons, marines being the exceptions for the most parts, and they generally just get characters with 5++, not the whole army. GENERALLY!

I feel like the new ork dex is ver competitive, even against tau/eldar.

It wont roflstomp everything, but it has tournament winning able builds for sure.


re warbikers
+ as someone mentioned, ignores cover is a thing, so losing a cover save i barely used, is meh, I always prefeered warbikers over biker nobs because they are more pts efficient even before the buff.