Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 01:35:18
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation
Greenville, South Carolina
|
If a unit of grots is behind an aegis defence line can they still fire the quad gun even though they cannot see over the wall? I thought there was some rules about this on the aegis in the rulebook but couldn't find any
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 01:50:28
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
|
True line of sight, if they can't see, they can't shoot.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 02:00:46
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
|
They cannot as line of sight is traced from the firing model's eyes.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/20 02:01:21
Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 02:53:12
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
|
put them on a box
|
3000 Points - Right Hands of the Emperor, Imperial Fists Successor
1000 Points - Right Hands of the Emperor Elite PDF force
Bolt Action 1500 pts US Army
Bolt Action 1000 pts US Airborne
X Wing - Giant rebel fleet
Halo Fleet Battles - 1000 pt UNSC Force, 1000 pt Covenant Force
======Begin Dakka Geek Code======
DR:80S++G++MB+IPw40k96#+D+A++/areWD-R+T(T)DM+
======End Dakka Geek Code====== |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 02:55:15
Subject: Re:Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Funny, I've seen imperial guard units shoot from behind ADLs, I mean the heavy weapon guys and it was never deemed wrong.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 02:59:44
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
|
because the gunner on the heavy weapon can see above the dips in the long sections or through the firing slits.
|
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 03:03:32
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
|
Easy fix.
Have one peeking round the corner.
Shoot the gun with him, and return fire can only kill one grot, as the others can't be seen to be shot.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/20 03:03:52
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts
GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 03:09:45
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
|
Grots are tall enough to see through the slits and the dips. and should see any fliers easily.
If the people you are playing with are really making a stink about it, then get some of those cool decorative bases that add a 1/2" and put the grots on them  most people have them now days so if they complain about the grots, make them remove theirs as well.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 04:12:13
Subject: Re:Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
Johnnytorrance wrote:Funny, I've seen imperial guard units shoot from behind ADLs, I mean the heavy weapon guys and it was never deemed wrong.
Some players are quite happy to ignore the LOS rules where shooting from behind the ADL is concerned, on the assumption that models taking up position behind the wall would put themselves somewhere they can see over it, despite this not actually being a part of the rules.
I have no idea how you determine in that situation just how close to the ADL the unit has to be to be able to see over it. Automatically Appended Next Post: sirlynchmob wrote:Grots are tall enough to see through the slits and the dips. and should see any fliers easily.
Fairly sure we've established in previous ADL discussions that this is not actually true without creative modelling.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/20 04:13:00
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 04:42:55
Subject: Re:Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
|
insaniak wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:Grots are tall enough to see through the slits and the dips. and should see any fliers easily.
Fairly sure we've established in previous ADL discussions that this is not actually true without creative modelling.
I've got plain grots, and the ADL and they can see through it.
The proof is in the pudding though, once it's on the table and the game has begun take out your laser pointer and light up what they can see. Shine the light from the head of the grots, through the slits, and the dips, and above the wall.
Table design and terrain will make things way to variable for absolute statements.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 13:36:15
Subject: Re:Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
|
Then they're not plain Grots.
The two on the left are the proper Big Gunz Krew, supplied with the kannon model. The one on the right is from the plastic grot kit. All three are mounted on the bases they were supplied with.
Shot was taken as close to level as possible, this was to avoid any "creative angles" that might make the grot appear bigger/smaller.
From their eye level they cannot see over the wall, through the dips or slots. Even from the top of their heads (which is wrong) they still cannot see. Any Grit model that could see over that wall is NOT a proper GW 40k grot model, definitely not a appropriate crew model.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/20 13:50:58
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 17:05:49
Subject: Re:Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
|
grendel083 wrote:Then they're not plain Grots.
The two on the left are the proper Big Gunz Krew, supplied with the kannon model. The one on the right is from the plastic grot kit. All three are mounted on the bases they were supplied with.
Shot was taken as close to level as possible, this was to avoid any "creative angles" that might make the grot appear bigger/smaller.
From their eye level they cannot see over the wall, through the dips or slots. Even from the top of their heads (which is wrong) they still cannot see. Any Grit model that could see over that wall is NOT a proper GW 40k grot model, definitely not a appropriate crew model.
They can see over the wall though, they're looking at a up angle, but they can see over it. same with the window slits. If you scoot them back from the wall a bit that angle get's lower.
Any space marine up next to the wall will be easily seen. Fliers can be easily seen. Put some marines behind the wall and you'll see you can draw LOS to them. Nearby models & elevated models can be seen. So you can't just say they can't see over the wall. The only way to know for sure what they can see is to look and get a models eye view of what they can see during the game.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 17:29:16
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
|
Fair enough, they can't see anything useful over the wall.
The angle and distance required to see a space marine likely means they are getting no cover save from the wall, but the marine will.
Seeing a flyer would only matter if it was hovering, as artillery can never make snap shots.
In practical terms the wall is a hindrance to this unit far more than a benefit.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 17:39:45
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren
|
I dont think there is any rule that prohibits you using some decorative rocks to raise them to a greater height and then allowing them to see (and be seen)
The BRB only says antennae etc. dont count for LoS, and that you can't take your cover with you.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/20 17:40:16
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 17:42:41
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
|
grendel083 wrote:Fair enough, they can't see anything useful over the wall.
The angle and distance required to see a space marine likely means they are getting no cover save from the wall, but the marine will.
Seeing a flyer would only matter if it was hovering, as artillery can never make snap shots.
In practical terms the wall is a hindrance to this unit far more than a benefit.
But the quad gun can shoot at the fliers  And that seems to be the big selling point for ork players. one grot to intercept fliers, the rest to man the big guns in the shooting phase.
You can also greatly improve its usefulness by deploying it at the bottom of a slope, then the grots behind it are also slightly higher in relation to the wall. Or maybe you want to be completely out of LOS with a troop choice sitting on an objective.
How useful it is, is really left up to the person fielding it and how they're using it.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 17:48:10
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
Sir Arun wrote:I dont think there is any rule that prohibits you using some decorative rocks to raise them to a greater height and then allowing them to see (and be seen)
The BRB only says antennae etc. dont count for LoS, and that you can't take your cover with you.
And there is no rule saying I can't place my scoring units back on the board near my objectives after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.
The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do and you are not allowed to do anything else.
Is there a rule saying you can use some decorative rocks to raise them to a greater height?
If not then you can not do it. Automatically Appended Next Post: sirlynchmob wrote:You can also greatly improve its usefulness by deploying it at the bottom of a slope,
Remember that fortifications have to be at least 3 inches from other terrain pieces.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/20 17:49:02
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 18:02:21
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
|
DeathReaper wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sirlynchmob wrote:You can also greatly improve its usefulness by deploying it at the bottom of a slope,
Remember that fortifications have to be at least 3 inches from other terrain pieces.
True, but if you board already has built in hills and slopes, then those aren't usually considered terrain pieces. It's usually just open ground and the 3" rule doesn't apply.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 18:10:35
Subject: Re:Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
|
Aegis is useful to Grots IF you can find a hill that's exactly the right height, in exactly the right position.
Easy
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 18:12:06
Subject: Re:Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard
Catskills in NYS
|
Isn't there a FW grot standing on tiptoes that can see over?
|
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote:Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote:Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens BaronIveagh wrote:Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 18:15:08
Subject: Re:Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
|
Or stick grot heads on marine bodies. I'm sure no one will mind...
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 18:16:18
Subject: Re:Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard
Catskills in NYS
|
"Why do you always wear your helmet, Brother?"
|
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote:Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote:Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens BaronIveagh wrote:Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/20 18:32:07
Subject: Re:Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
|
grendel083 wrote:Aegis is useful to Grots IF you can find a hill that's exactly the right height, in exactly the right position.
Easy
Especially if you make your own board, make your own hills, or use the realm of battle boards. Most of the boards I've seen have some sorts of slopes built into them.
It's easier than you think.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/21 01:01:08
Subject: Re:Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
|
There is and he can plainly see over it. Of course now you will see folks chime in here that official GW minis used in a GW released game utilizing GW written rules will tell you he can not ge used. There is another thread or 2 on the boards about this very same subject.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/21 01:18:47
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Lieutenant Colonel
|
lol... why does this come up every damn week?
put on grot off the the side who can see through, and bam, you can shoot the quad gun ...
better yet, you can waste a whole shooting turn of your opponents if he decides to shoot the one grot he can see....
far more advantageous to be completely out of LOS behind the aegis for the grots then it is to be in LOS.
you can also put grots on top of the aegis/quad gun they fit and balance just fine.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/21 02:38:03
Subject: Re:Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
Which is fine... if you're using that model.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/21 02:45:01
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Executing Exarch
|
Place the grots physically on the quad gun. Its terrain and gives a 4+ cover. Blue tack the bastards if you have to. You can technically deepstrike a single model unit on top of the quad gun as long as its 1" away from enemy models.
Or your opponent can stop being a tool and just let you shoot it.
|
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/21 02:52:22
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
So not allowing someone to shoot when they don't have LOS is 'being a tool' now?
That's going to lead to some interesting games...
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/21 06:50:38
Subject: Re:Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Boss GreenNutz wrote:
There is and he can plainly see over it. Of course now you will see folks chime in here that official GW minis used in a GW released game utilizing GW written rules will tell you he can not ge used. There is another thread or 2 on the boards about this very same subject.
Ah, that would be the fantasy artillery crew, yes?
Is it ok to use a steamtank in 40k games as a leman russ? After all, its an official GW mini used in a GW released game...or what about the Epic scale Avatar in 40k?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/21 09:54:53
Subject: Re:Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
Whether or not it's 'ok' to use it is rather irrelevant to the issue at hand.
If you use it, it will have a different LOS to a 'normal' Leman Russ... because that's how LOS works in 40K.
If you are using models that can physically see over the ADL, then those models can see over the ADL. If you are using models that can't see over the ADL, then those models can't see over the ADL.
It's that simple.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/03/21 10:02:08
Subject: Grots on quad gun?
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
I am aware of that distinction. The context of the partial quote is that just saying "Its a GW official mini for a GW official game" deos not mean it is always an appropriate mini, and that that mini cannot have other effects
Using fantasy models in 40k to gain an advantage you would not otherwise have is more than just using a GW mini in a GW game...
|
|
 |
 |
|