Are they retconning Mugulath Bay to be a Pyrrhic victory for the Tau?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Totalwar1402**

Shes five foot tall in the books. Shes not a dwarf.

Plus shes mentioned as being shorter than the other girls. WHo apparently are all around average height and not made uber fantasy proportions like Perrin and Rand. Personally I would have thought Avienda was 6 2' and Elayne 6 ft. But actually they're both only 5 10 and 5 8 with the other female characters being scaled down. I don't have a link but RJ did actually say how tall all the female characters were. So Moiraine is genuinely tiny. I love how much this comes up and her insecurity over this. Especially in the prequel novel where that other Aes Sedai calls her a "cute porcelain doll" which has her raging inside, and in the first book where when she needs an illusion to scare Whitecloaks the first thing she thinks of is appearing like a giant. Yeah, that girl has issues.

Well the book hasn't been released yet so I can only judge the book by its cover. When I've read it I'll post again about it.

**Psienesis**

Yes, I know. However, if you look at the cover of "Eye of the World", she's like 3'3".

Spoiler:

**Silverthorne**

The art probably changed because hand to hand combat its more visually compelling than non LOS pgms vaporizing dudes from 2 miles away.

**Da Butcha**

Silverthorne wrote:
The art probably changed because hand to hand combat its more visually compelling than non LOS pgms vaporizing dudes from 2 miles away.

Exactly. An textbook tau victory would be the tau shooting the foe from a distance, safely behind cover. They find close combat distasteful and crude. However, how visually interesting is a Riptide and some distant explosions?

If the Tau are in close proximity to the enemy, something has gone wrong with the tau battle plan. If they aren't losing, they are struggling to avoid it, if they are close enough to engage in melee.

**TheCustomLime**

Just because the Tau were taking heavy casualties during one engagement doesn't change the overall outcome of the campaign. The Germans had small victories during the Battle of Normandy here and there but still lost.

**Animus**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
make it more about Space Marines pawning tau of which there are already dozens of examples (particularly the Zeist campaign in the Space Marine codex).

This is a pretty funny point to make because the whole Mu'gulath Bay thing is basically just a giant Tau "NUH-UH WE MEANT TO DO THAT YOU GOT TRICKED" that leaves some images of Space Marines and Knights acquitting themselves well against Tau in the dust in terms of faction fellatio.

In regard to the Tau being outnumbered by Imperial forces, I doubt the Space Marines made up a huge percentage of those forces numerically, so it's possible for the Imperium to outnumber the Tau while the Tau outnumber the Space Marines or Knights.

**Totalwar1402**

Right I bought the book today and had a read through it.

The book considers the entire campaign and basically leaves the ending open to imply that either side could win. After a bit of build where the tau basically encounter little to no resistance it focuses on two worlds, Agrellan and Voltaris. One major tau victory and one major Imperial victory. Agrellan itself pretty much has Shadowsun running rings around the space marines and guard. Kor sorro is lured into an ambush at Blackridge where they are only saved by the intervention of the raven guard with Shadowsun using herself as bait. The major battle takes place at Agrellan Prime. One thing is that they definitely big up the role of the Imperial Knights. One Obsidian Knight in particular is said to kill hundreds of tau and the Tau never seem to have a sufficient counter to them. For instance Shadowsun lures a group of knight titans into an ambush with massed railguns and only one is critically damaged. This is despite the fact that the book repeatedly mentions the Tau having their Mantas and tiger sharks which are capable of destroying larger classes of titans and so the smaller knights shouldn't be a problem. It mainly because of the knights and the raven guard that the Imperials are able to evacuate their best troops from Agrellan. Otherwise, all the hives in Agrellan fall in a single day. Its a little hard to take this seriously as it doesn't fit with the tau being outnumbered by 6 to 1 plus the tau should not struggle with the smallest class of titan when in other lore they have the equipment to kill the largest classes of titan. On the whole though this is a fairly balanced battle with both sides giving as good as they get. The fact that the bulk of the Imperial army escapes however makes the whole thing seem like a hollow victory and its more a set-up to the main battle on Voltaris. It feels more like Shadowsuns tactics only result in the taking of ground and off setting the Imperials military power. Its essentially the same army on Agrellan that fights on Voltaris.

Voltaris is the homeworld of the Knights Terryn. The armies that escaped Agrellan dig in outside their main fortress, the approach of which is flanked by jungle. Basically Shadowsun is overconfident and anxious about those who escaped so Aun Va lets her take "half of the coalition" (note the number there: fully half the third sphere expansion). Through the use of plot armor and psychic powers the Imperials are able to conceal a much more powerful force and trick shadowsun into launching a full frontal assault against some dug in cadian regiments. As they advance they are flanked by catachan and shrouded by the white scars magic. These sow confusion in the Tau lines and tear up their riptides. As this goes on the space marines charge into the fray. Shadowsun personally kills the psykers but as the mist parts she realises her predicament and the size of the Imperial army. The cadians bayonet charge and 30 knight titans (which for some reason the mantas landing the Tau army cannot deal with) charge down. To top it all off Kor sarro mortally wounds shadowsun (she overcharges her energy shield and her bodyguards intervene), its then pretty much a massacre for the tau which them fighting to escape and rescue shadowsun from the field. So, essentially, a force of two regiments of guard, 30 knight titans and two companies of space marines wipes out half the third sphere expansion in one battle. yeah...

Its not unreasonable to have a separate invented battle to big up the Knight titans as I said before and have the tau lose badly. However, when such a large tau army is landing with their titan killing mantas and tiger sharks it is very hard to take the threat posed by the knights that seriously. Plus, considering that Agrellan is set up as a victory the Imperials actually still do far better with one knight titan and a white scars company smashing through the tau cordon to get to Agrellan Prime. The descriptions seem to go on about Shadowsuns strategy and the Imperial overconfidence but its hard to get how shadowsun can make such gains when the Imperials seem to take very few losses in every encounter; with most of the army withdrawing safely to fight at full strength on Voltaris. There are several cases like at Blackridge where the White Scars are "almost" trapped but escape. Then again at Agrellan Prime where they are "almost" trapped and destroyed. Then theres where she ambushes the Knight titans and again they only lose one. Unless the book is only focusing on the named regiments and elite units that escape and not focusing on the dozens of Agrellan Guard regiments and PDF i.e. it focuses on those who escape. Its also vague about what sort of reinforcements or existing forces were on Voltaris besides the Imperial Knights. I assume they would have their own Skitari or local guard units.

So not as bad as I thought it would be as they simply make another battle to have the tau lose; although they do end up slightly diminishing the achievement as most of the Imperials seem to escape. Although I did find it very bad how they kept saying the Tau had their anti titan forge world aircraft but never use them to deal with the Knights. Instead they're using basic rules units against titans...

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
This is despite the fact that the book repeatedly mentions the Tau having their Mantas and tiger sharks which are capable of destroying larger classes of titans and so the smaller knights shouldn't be a problem.

If I recall correctly Tigersharks have only been shown to take out an unsupported Warhound Titan. It's likely that the Imperial forces had significant AA defences (or perhaps their own air power).

**AlmightyWalrus**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Totalwar1402 wrote:
This is despite the fact that the book repeatedly mentions the Tau having their Mantas and tiger sharks which are capable of destroying larger classes of titans and so the smaller knights shouldn't be a problem.

If I recall correctly Tigersharks have only been shown to take out an unsupported Warhound Titan. It's likely that the Imperial forces had significant AA defences (or perhaps their own air power).

This. For the record, Knights are NOT Titans.

Has there been any example fluff-wise of Tau fighting Imperator Titans? Because I have a feeling that Mantas wouldn't do as well against them as some people seem to believe.

**Totalwar1402**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Totalwar1402 wrote:
This is despite the fact that the book repeatedly mentions the Tau having their Mantas and tiger sharks which are capable of destroying larger classes of titans and so the smaller knights shouldn't be a problem.

If I recall correctly Tigersharks have only been shown to take out an unsupported Warhound Titan. It's likely that the Imperial forces had significant AA defences (or perhaps their own air power).

Its made clear that in both battles, especially Agrellan the tau had total air and space supremacy. Hence why they were able to land all of their army by manta outside of the imperial fortress on the Knight homeworld.

Theres no reason why the tau shouldn't have had access to D weapons from their fliers to deal with the knight titans. So the idea that one Knight can engage the entire tau army without the dozens or even hundreds of tiger sharks n mantas firing their titan killing railguns at the thing is really preposterous. The book actually says specifically that the forge world titan killing fliers are involved in the battles. Very odd that in an apocalypse book the taus apocalypse units aren't allowed to be used against the Knight titans.

**godking**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
This is a summary of the current lore from the Tau 6th ed codex from Lexicannum

-

The battle was the first major engagement between the Imperium and Tau Empire during the Third Sphere of Expansion. Centered on the Hive World of Agrellan, the human forces had amassed a substantial force of Imperial Guard which were heavily dug-in and supported by heavy Leman Russ Battle Tanks. The Imperial defenses surrounding each Hive were formidable - heavy walls topped with bunkers overlooking an open wasteland rigged with mines and tank traps. Bypassing or landing behind these positions was difficult, as they would simply find themselves trapped within the twisting streets of hive cities and surrounded on all sides. However due to the strategic importance of Agrellan (being the gateway to the Dovar System), Third Sphere commander Shadowsun realized that bypassing the world was impossible. To bolster Tau morale for the battle ahead, Ethereal Supreme Aun'va personally arrived to meet with Tau forces set to enter the battle.[1]

To crack this formidable planet, Shadowsun herself planned and led the assault. Twenty Hunter Cadre's simultaneously struck key hive nodes, and at the vanguard of each strode the latest and mightiest Tau weapon, the XV104 Riptide Battlesuit. This was the first combat deployment of the Riptide, and they proved invaluable during the battle, using their agility to bypass defensive points and blowing apart Imperial Guard bunkers and tanks with their heavy weapons. Better still for the Tau, much of the Imperial anti-tank weaponry proved useless against the Riptide's armor. Even the firing of an Imperial Deathstrike Missile proved unable to penetrate the Riptide's once they had activated their Nova Reactor shields. Upon reaching the enemy walls, the Riptide's engaged their jet packs and created breaches that would later be exploited by Fire Warrior teams.[1]

Taking advantage of the situation, Shadowsun then began mass ground assault led by Hammerhead tanks, Manta Gunships, and Sun Shark bombers. Despite being outnumbered by Imperial tanks six-to-one, the Tau emerged victorious thanks to their planning, maneuverability, and long-range firepower. It was during this engagement that Longstrike gained infamy for destroying countless Leman Russ tanks and leading the Tau grav-tanks into the streets of Agrellan's capital hive. Here, the Tau were able to use accurate Hammerhead firepower to quickly suppress any Imperial Guard forces that attempted to move out of their cover and engage incoming waves of Fire Warriors.[1]

Shadowsun then led a counterattack against the Imperial forces that turned into a complete rout in what is now known as the Path of Blood. It is a bright day for the Tau, who saw a foe with vastly superior numbers crushed. Moreover, no less than twelve advanced weapon prototypes were successfully deployed in the campaign, with only the fusion reactor meltdown that destroyed Agrellan's moon proving a failure. After the battle, Agrellan became a new Tau Sept, renamed Mu'gulath. With Mu'gulath in their hands, most nearby Imperial worlds fell to the Tau in short order.

-

Note that the first paragraph spells out very clearly that this is a fortress/hive world with extremely strong defenses. Also note the numbers difference of 6:1 and that it ends in a total rout. The victory also causes the tau to take scores of fresh worlds in short order.

However, with the new Damocles Warzone book coming out, almost everything I've seen and heard about this so far seems to be saying that its anything but a victory for the Tau. Look at most of the artwork which is used to promote the game and the covers.

https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1440&bih=809&q=damocles+tau&oq=damocles+tau&gs_l=img.3...931.9210.0.9811.16.12.1.3.0.0.109.960.11j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.37.img..6.10.769.Dq5lZ5hZ8fI#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=gQccLAph2_pNsM%253A%3BdGvrMKwEB6k19M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.games-workshop.com%252FMEDIA_CustomProductCatalog%252Fm3850121a_1.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.games-workshop.com%252Fgws%252Fwnt%252Fblog.jsp%3B677%3B350

Here we see two riptides being smashed by the Imperials and Shadowsuns infantry being shredded by space marines. Note that its now the Imperials who are massively outnumbered by hoards of tau.

https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1440&bih=809&q=damocles+tau&oq=damocles+tau&gs_l=img.3...931.9210.0.9811.16.12.1.3.0.0.109.960.11j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.37.img..6.10.769.Dq5lZ5hZ8fI#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=nH4PLN9sNdl45M%253A%3BOLU-Bl0oPYtnEM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimages.dakkadakka.com%252Fgallery%252F2014%252F3%252F10%252F592288-.jpeg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.dakkadakka.com%252Fdakkaforum%252Fposts%252Flist%252F584358.page%3B780%3B1040

Another images of a knight smashing hordes of tau tanks.

Some people have also said that the raven guard play a prominent role in undermining Shadowsuns tactics.

Plus they also pawn shadowsun in a personal fight.

http://ukitakumuki.deviantart.com/art/Black-Library-Damocles-440458999

Plus, to add insult to injury this is what two space marines can do to tau battlesuits.

http://ukitakumuki.deviantart.com/art/Black-Library-The-Shape-of-the-Hunt-440917248

Theres also another image which forms the front cover of the Damocles book that I can't find. But it basically has more space marines boltering down hordes of Tau like its nothing.

Now, I don't get how that at all fits with the canon they have established. This is a one sided battle where the MASSIVELY OUTNUMBERED Tau beat an Imperial army with strong defences and totally rout it. Theres nothing in that about titans and space marines pawning the tau at every turn; which is precisely what all of the artwork for this spells out. Lord forbid there be any lore where we don't space marines mowing down hundreds of aliens each like its nothing. Never mind the fact that theres nothing to imply that titans or two named chapters were present at Agrellan. This is a blatant retcon which is going to make this a pyhric victory for the Tau where they lose most of their army to space marines and Shadowsun is outwitted at every turn by the named marine characters. You know they'll do it.

I wouldn't mind if they did this with a battle they had made up for the Imperials to win. But altering one of the few times where tau actually win and diminish their success so you can focus on how awesome space marines are? No, the lore is clear. The Imperials get their arses handed to them. If any named chapters were their, which there shouldn't have been, then said companies should be wiped out to a man. It seems like Necrons are the only xenos allowed to kill space marines for some reason. You know that this is going to be the story of how 300 space marines hold off the entire Third Sphere Expansion by themselves and escape with only a handful of marine casualties.

edit - Has anyone read the book yet? When I get it I am probs going to come back and talk about whether this assumption was right or not.

Finist the book today.

Loved it

one of the novella's gives some good insight on the life of a Human under Tau rule .

And Mu'gulath is a resounding victory for the Tau.

Without giving away to much there is only one real victory that the space marines win over the Tau.

The other battles are outright losses or draws at best.

An ultra marine squad is killed almost till the last man.

A ravenguard gets captured.

Kor'sarro and shadow sun do duel but you have to read for yourself to see who ''wins'' the duel.

**BlaxicanX**

Sounds about right, considering Tau capabilities versus Imperial.

**Totalwar1402**

@godking

I haven't read the novella collection yet.

But in the apocalypse book he meets her again on Voltaris.

Are all of the novellas about Agrellan or do they mention the battle on Voltaris as well? A bit odd not to have that in. It seems to tie in directly to Kor sorro failing to catch her first time around. Do you think they would do another book on this, a sequel?

Having re-read the battle its quite bizarre. Only when the tau army is routed do the tau use their manta fliers to stop the army being slaughtered owing to their (overwhelming firepower). Why they weren't using these to begin with is baffling; never mind why the tau fleet didn't bombard the single fortress city.

edit Only read the start but I get the impression they're rolling with Shadowsun being a bitch.

One of the characters first acts being to fire railguns to crack open the hive worlds and bury millions of innocent civilians in the process. I hope this is just so that the character gets chastened and humbled later on; not just to make her a villain.

It really is weird that our heroes are a bunch of savages who literally take ship loads of heads back to their homeworld and are trying to maintain what is on the whole most evil, regressive and oppressive regime in human history. But the bad guys are aliens trying to liberate and enlighten the other races and uplift humanity? I know the Black Library loves to make the tau dark but it really doesn't work when compared to the Imperium. Essentially it boils down to the reader accepting that humans=good guys and aliens=bad guys above all other considerations and that ends up being really shallow.

**Durandal**

I haven't read the books, but I would be leery of basing any judgements off cover art. The cover art is always biased to show some huge dramatic scenes that never would happen in the game or in any strategic sense.

For example, why would you let your riptides get into hand to hand range with anything? It isn't like the forces of the Imperium have a strategic genius like Creeeeeeeed! to infiltrate them

As for the actual fluff, having the Tau codex extol this "great victory" while the Imperial or other fluff shows it as small potatoes in the grand scheme of things is very appropriate. The Tau are the naive young race. They don't know the danger they are in; they don't grasp the true scale of the universe.

For the Tau, conquering a fortified hive world is a great accomplishment. For the Imperium of Man, it is tuesday.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Having re-read the battle its quite bizarre. Only when the tau army is routed do the tau use their manta fliers to stop the army being slaughtered owing to their (overwhelming firepower). Why they weren't using these to begin with is baffling; never mind why the tau fleet didn't bombard the single fortress city.

Perhaps the Imperial forces had to extended to stretch AA coverage? One would imagine they either wanted the city mostly intact or it contained defence lasers capable of deterring orbital strikes.

One of the characters first acts being to fire railguns to crack open the hive worlds and bury millions of innocent civilians in the process.

Does this course of action result in fewer Tau deaths?

It really is weird that our heroes are a bunch of savages who literally take ship loads of heads back to their homeworld and are trying to maintain what is on the whole most evil, regressive and oppressive regime in human history. But the bad guys are aliens trying to liberate and enlighten the other races and uplift humanity?

Many of the terrible things the Imperium does are necessary in the name of survival. The Tau don't want to liberate humanity they want to conquer and assimilate it. They aren't going to let humans rule themselves as they wish; the Ethereals retain ultimate control. That's not liberation and whether or not it's enlightenment is debatable.

**BrianDavion**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
@godking

I haven't read the novella collection yet.

But in the apocalypse book he meets her again on Voltaris.

Are all of the novellas about Agrellan or do they mention the battle on Voltaris as well? A bit odd not to have that in. It seems to tie in directly to Kor sorro failing to catch her first time around. Do you think they would do another book on this, a sequel?

Having re-read the battle its quite bizarre. Only when the tau army is routed do the tau use their manta fliers to stop the army being slaughtered owing to their (overwhelming firepower). Why they weren't using these to begin with is baffling; never mind why the tau fleet didn't bombard the single fortress city.

edit Only read the start but I get the impression they're rolling with Shadowsun being a bitch. One of the characters first acts being to fire railguns to crack open the hive worlds and bury millions of innocent civilians in the process. I hope this is just so that the character gets chastened and humbled later on; not just to make her a villain.

It really is weird that our heroes are a bunch of savages who literally take ship loads of heads back to their homeworld and are trying to maintain what is on the whole most evil, regressive and oppressive regime in human history. But the bad guys are aliens trying to liberate and enlighten the other races and uplift humanity? I know the Black Library loves to make the tau dark but it really doesn't work when compared to the Imperium. Essentially it boils down to the reader accepting that humans=good guys and aliens=bad guys above all other considerations and that ends up being really shallow.

except that this is 40k dude. one of the rules of the setting is and always (as far as I know) has been There are no good guys as evidanced by their behavior in countless books and source material. the Tau are ALIENS who want to impose their way of life on people. if they don't want it... TOO BAD YOU DON'T GET A CHOICE!

the humans in these stories are not the good guys. they are the PROTAGIONISTS. there is a differance

**Totalwar1402**

Having read Blood Oath I feel sorry for Shadowsun. Can't catch a break and taking gak off everyone. Hell I thinkthe White Scars guy likes her more than Aun Va who treats her like gak. Especially when he says shes doing crap for failing to destroy the imperials. Then it switchs back to the Imperials POV and they're all saying "that bitch is pounding us into the ground here".

I was confused about one element which I won't comment on coz I am still reading and I think Shaodwsun is in another sotry about this. But its a neat twist that I wasn't expecting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also one odd thing is that they actually give the precise number of Tau killed at the massacre at Voltaris at the end of Blood Oath.

812 dead soldiers.

That, seems like a very tiny number. It might be that the writers are trying to represent the sort of apocalypse battle you could play on the tabletop with enough people; but lore wise that number seems way too small. Not sure how such losses would have such a disastrous impact on the third sphere expansion as a whole. As an example, Aun Va in the tau codex when announces the 3rd sphere personally takes the salute of a million fire warriors on the tau homeworld. Plus the Empires ability to fight across its entire territory against an orc invasion. 812 sounds more like a skirmish and even if the tau were driven off the world that seems more like a strategic setback than a campaign changing event.

**Furyou Miko**

Basically, once again, sci fi writers have no sense of scale, the Imperium is made to look good by giving the enemy an Idiot Ball, and good writing has been sacrificed for model sales.

Gods, but I miss the days when Black Library was mostly independent.

**Connor MacLeod**

It seems to me that 6th edition is 'Year of the tau beatdown' given everything that has happened since the 6th edition codex. The whole bit in the Knights stuff that recently came out was only the most recent thing.

**EmpNortonII**

Totalwar, I advise you to meditate on the 13th Black Crusade.

Chaos got retconned out of their one successful Black Crusade by GW not wanting to advance the timeline.

At least Tau aren't getting THAT boned.

**Furyou Miko**

Actually, Chaos got retconned in to having twelve successful Black Crusades, by virtue of their objectives being made known (and none of them being "get to Terra and kick the Emperor"). And the Thirteenth is frozen at five minutes to midnight, just before Eldrad boards the Blackstone Fortress.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

Furyou Miko wrote:the Imperium is made to look good by giving the enemy an Idiot Ball

To be fair, the Imperium is often the one with the (giant) idiot ball. Especially against the Tau, against which only Space Marines seem to have an effect. And even then only if they're not of Rogal Dorn's geneseed. In all seriously, have the Imperial Guard had a background victory against the Tau which did not involve Space Marines?

Actually, Chaos got retconned in to having twelve successful Black Crusades, by virtue of their objectives being made known (and none of them being "get to Terra and kick the Emperor").

That wasn't really a retcon though. It was quite clear that at least some of the previous Black Crusades were not trying to break the Cadian Gate (the one in which he got his sword and the Gothic War). Games Workshop simply made it more clear.

**Co'tor Shas**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:the Imperium is made to look good by giving the enemy an Idiot Ball

To be fair, the Imperium is often the one with the (giant) idiot ball. Especially against the Tau, against which only Space Marines seem to have an effect. And even then only if they're not of Rogal Dorn's geneseed. In all seriously, have the Imperial Guard had a background victory against the Tau which did not involve Space Marines?

I don't think so. Tau are great at fighting hoard armies like IG and Orks (with lots of training on orks), and the imperium always seems to to sen there most incompetent commanders to the eastern fringe.

**BrianDavion**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:the Imperium is made to look good by giving the enemy an Idiot Ball

To be fair, the Imperium is often the one with the (giant) idiot ball. Especially against the Tau, against which only Space Marines seem to have an effect. And even then only if they're not of Rogal Dorn's geneseed. In all seriously, have the Imperial Guard had a background victory against the Tau which did not involve Space Marines?

I don't think so. Tau are great at fighting hoard armies like IG and Orks (with lots of training on orks), and the imperium always seems to to sen there most incompetent commanders to the eastern fringe.

The Imperium proably sees the Tau front as something of a sideshow compared to their other fronts, an understandable sentiment when one realizes that the Tau are a MUCH smaler scale threat then Chaos, tyranids, necrons etc.

the Tau are a small scale empire, whose ships fairly slow speeds mean they'll remain a "regional problem" /GW's been pretty consistant that one of the Tau's biggest advantages is that the Imperium is not taking them as seriously as perhaps they should

**Furyou Miko**

Which is silly, because you know what else is on the eastern front?

Tyranids.

Even if you won't take the Tau seriously, you should have competent commanders in that area to deal with the thing they Tau are buffering for you.

**TiamatRoar**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Which is silly, because you know what else is on the eastern front?

Tyranids.

Even if you won't take the Tau seriously, you should have competent commanders in that area to deal with the thing they Tau are buffering for you.

I'm not sure of the exact timeline and don't have time to look it up right now, but relatively speaking, the Tyrannids (and Tau, for that matter) are kinda new (in fact, the Tyrannids are what interrupted the Damocles Crusade in the first place IIRC). Maybe the Imperium hasn't had time to re-adjust it's defenses in lieu of these new threats. There's also the fact that the 13th Black Crusade at the other end of the galaxy broke out "soon" after (relatively speaking, considering how LONG it takes Imperium beaurocracy to act), which is like, one of the biggest threats to the Imperium ever.

**1hadhq**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Which is silly, because you know what else is on the eastern front?

Tyranids.

Even if you won't take the Tau seriously, you should have competent commanders in that area to deal with the thing they Tau are buffering for you.

The East is also the home of Ultramar....