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No HQ will be attached and there won't be an Apothecary or any other character. Just five guys with five guns.

Flamers?
Melta?
Plasma?

This is for a TAC list that doesn't need one of these more than the others.

It really depends on what else is in ur list. personally i run 5 man melta command squad, for when you need something big killed.

What do you give a TAC list that has everything?

The answer to that is very meta dependent. What kind of armies get played in your area? What are you afraid of?

Personally, I’d go melta. No mater what your problem is, dropping a ton of melta into it tends to make it go away. Unless it’s the green tide. Or an Avatar; screw that guy.

If you assume a TAC should be able to deal with an average amount of anything, what would give you problems if spammed against you? With most marine lists, I think excessive mech would be the largest problem. But that might just be the way I make my TAC lists. YMMV.

What chapter tactics? The salamanders DP list I'm building is going with 5 flamers, but that's mainly due to the chapter tactics

CT would likely be Black Templar which doesn't really impact any option.

I had originally considered Melta as well, but I'll likely take Melta SG and wasn't sure I needed two melta death squads.

Plasma seemed like the smart choice, able to kill light armor, heavy infantry and MCs and having a longer range than Melta but I'm concerned about the point cost.

For that reason I looked at cheap Flamers, which sounds awesome but is either ineffective against armor or potential overkill on infantry.

I run Calgar with Termie Captain/Shield Eternal and plasma squad/apothecary...in a recent game, I drop podded into Tau backline...took zero wounds...nice dice rolling on my part ;-)

 minigun762 wrote:
CT would likely be Black Templar which doesn't really impact any option.

I had originally considered Melta as well, but I'll likely take Melta SG and wasn't sure I needed two melta death squads.

Plasma seemed like the smart choice, able to kill light armor, heavy infantry and MCs and having a longer range than Melta but I'm concerned about the point cost.

For that reason I looked at cheap Flamers, which sounds awesome but is either ineffective against armor or potential overkill on infantry.

What does the rest of the list look like? What kind of transport are you planning on using or are they slogging it?

Rest of the army is a mix of Raiders, Rhinos and Flyers. Very mobile and aggressive.

I run a command squad with an apothecary, plasma guns, and storm shields. I is 215 points and with an HQ like calgar or SE chapter master is just really hard to kill. I put it in a pod and just usually dare my opponent to waste time killing it. Also if you get storm of fire as a warlord trait and give the chapter master relentless you can have two twin-linked orbital bombardments, along with twin-linked plasma all going into a super tough death star unit. I usually use this to easily kill an enemy warlord or wipe out a troublesome 2+ armor save unit.

Oh and melta command squads are awesome, but actually kind of expensive for only 5 marines. They pretty much can't whiff their rolls and have to take out something important.

hyozanman wrote:
I run a command squad with an apothecary, plasma guns, and storm shields. I is 215 points and with an HQ like calgar or SE chapter master is just really hard to kill. I put it in a pod and just usually dare my opponent to waste time killing it. Also if you get storm of fire as a warlord trait and give the chapter master relentless you can have two twin-linked orbital bombardments, along with twin-linked plasma all going into a super tough death star unit. I usually use this to easily kill an enemy warlord or wipe out a troublesome 2+ armor save unit.

Oh and melta command squads are awesome, but actually kind of expensive for only 5 marines. They pretty much can't whiff their rolls and have to take out something important.

I could see the Apothecary being significant if you have an attached HQ, but otherwise I think it's wasted on only 5 basic Marines. Do you find the plasma guns hold you back from assaulting or do you separate the HQ from the rest of the unit?

With the Melta Command Squad, how often do you find they survive past the initial drop?

Your melta squad should NEVER survive past turn one. They are just too easy to kill, and too big of a threat. The real issue I find with them is that if I go second they usually don't get first blood, and honestly they are more useful for first blood then popping important stuff, because a lot of intelligent players will protect their vital vehicles by placing them in the back lines or surround them with infantry, remember you need to get within 6 inches to melta something.

I never need to assault with the command squad because it is such a survivable snooty unit. You can assault and with the HQ can just fire some bolt pistols into your target and since they are vets they get two attacks base. Which makes them versatile. Also the apothecary can accept challenges if need be and let your CM and calgar do the rest. It is a pretty solid versatile unit, but rather costly. Also it is kind of slow.

Thinking it over I'd go Melta, you mentioned already having one Melta death unit, but I'm a fan of redundancies.

hyozanman wrote:
Your melta squad should NEVER survive past turn one. They are just too easy to kill, and too big of a threat. The real issue I find with them is that if I go second they usually don't get first blood, and honestly they are more useful for first blood then popping important stuff, because a lot of intelligent players will protect their vital vehicles by placing them in the back lines or surround them with infantry, remember you need to get within 6 inches to melta something.

So you're trading 180 points for one VP?

nobody wrote:
Thinking it over I'd go Melta, you mentioned already having one Melta death unit, but I'm a fan of redundancies.

I have Melta Sternguard. With them, the Melta shot is less significant than the special ammo I'm hoping to use on subsequent turns.

 minigun762 wrote:

hyozanman wrote:
Your melta squad should NEVER survive past turn one. They are just too easy to kill, and too big of a threat. The real issue I find with them is that if I go second they usually don't get first blood, and honestly they are more useful for first blood then popping important stuff, because a lot of intelligent players will protect their vital vehicles by placing them in the back lines or surround them with infantry, remember you need to get within 6 inches to melta something.

So you're trading 180 points for one VP?

Both players can get linebreaker and warlord, but only one can get first blood. At the end of the game what matters is how many VP you both have, and having that one VP that your opponent can't is enough to sacrifice a unit for.

Yes, first blood is a very important VP and many a game ha been won because of it, first blood is the reason why going first is vital to winning most games. Also a command squad is 100 points base and 40 points for the meltas. The drop pod does add more but it is usually ignored or has more points devoted to killing it then it is worth. Also that random storm bolter chipping away at units has won and lost games for me. Sternguard are never worth their points as a suicide unit and should only poddes in dedicated drop pod armies.

nobody wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:

hyozanman wrote:
Your melta squad should NEVER survive past turn one. They are just too easy to kill, and too big of a threat. The real issue I find with them is that if I go second they usually don't get first blood, and honestly they are more useful for first blood then popping important stuff, because a lot of intelligent players will protect their vital vehicles by placing them in the back lines or surround them with infantry, remember you need to get within 6 inches to melta something.

So you're trading 180 points for one VP?

Both players can get linebreaker and warlord, but only one can get first blood. At the end of the game what matters is how many VP you both have, and having that one VP that your opponent can't is enough to sacrifice a unit for.

Sorry if I sounded as if I was dismissing the value of First Blood, I was just clarifying your reasoning.

The idea that the Command Squad should never survive past turn 1 does diminish the value of plasma guns somewhat. They're more expensive than Melta guns and are less of an alpha strike weapon.

I go four plasma guns, storm shields, an apothecary, and a 2+ save HQ with eternal warrior if I run them with plasma guns. That is really survivable and when part of a dedicated drop pod army gives your opponent plenty to worry about. However as a single pod FB grabbing distraction, the melta command squad is better then anything else.

hyozanman wrote:
I go four plasma guns, storm shields, an apothecary, and a 2+ save HQ with eternal warrior if I run them with plasma guns. That is really survivable and when part of a dedicated drop pod army gives your opponent plenty to worry about. .

My quick math says that squad would run you 215 points.
How do you think a squad of 9 naked Sternguard would serve instead? Less durability boosts but more bodies.

I run the squad with calgar and an iron fists chapter master, or pedro. So that is usually 13 wounds with 8 of those wounds coming from potentially Eternal warrior 2+ armor saves. Combine that with feel no pain and look out sir 3++s and you have a really hard unit to kill. But, like I said earlier I like to run this unit in a dedicated drop pod list. So my opponent has to decide between this group or taking out the 2-3 sternguard squads.

Sternguard squads are way less resilient because they die to AP 3 unless you pod them into cover. They have the survivability of a tactical squad but cost more then this command squad, and that's if you don't give then combi- weapons.

I'd run quad-Plasma, so you can take advantage of the FNP to mitigate the Gets Hot penalty. 8 Plasma Shots from a Pod is pretty savage to anything. Rear/Side armor, exposed squads, etc.

i use plasma for versitility but since drop podding i would consider melta for AT, youve got AT covered elsewhere though go plasma, it is much more versititle.

If only 4-5 plasma could kill off a riptide or Wraithknight the same way five melta could kill off a Land Raider

Why not mix and match? I'd do 3 melta and 2 plasma, the meltas are cheaper and with three you should be good to kill most any vehicle, and having just two plasmas means you're less likely to get hot, but you're still pumping out 2-4 shots. And of course considering the strengths you should be able to damage most vehicles with either weapon, while at the same time being able to fight any sort of 2+ armor very effectively.
Seems like the best solution for a TAC list.

 minigun762 wrote:
If only 4-5 plasma could kill off a riptide or Wraithknight the same way five melta could kill off a Land Raider

I've killed a riptide before, It isn't easy and I use ultramarines so I add a little bit of force multiplication. Even if you don't kill the riptide that is just one squad taking away 3-4 wounds off a riptide and with a few well places lascannon shots or a bit more concentrated fire that riptide is a goner. Also plasma is amazing for killling broadsides and crisis suits. You can just pod in behind their drone shields.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 minigun762 wrote:
If only 4-5 plasma could kill off a riptide or Wraithknight the same way five melta could kill off a Land Raider

I've killed a riptide before, It isn't easy and I use ultramarines so I add a little bit of force multiplication. Even if you don't kill the riptide that is just one squad taking away 3-4 wounds off a riptide and with a few well places lascannon shots or a bit more concentrated fire that riptide is a goner. Also plasma is amazing for killling broadsides and crisis suits. You can just pod in behind their drone shields.

hyozanman wrote:

I've killed a riptide before, It isn't easy and I use ultramarines so I add a little bit of force multiplication. Even if you don't kill the riptide that is just one squad taking away 3-4 wounds off a riptide and with a few well places lascannon shots or a bit more concentrated fire that riptide is a goner. Also plasma is amazing for killling broadsides and crisis suits. You can just pod in behind their drone shields.

Good point on UM CT, that would help make a difference, hopefully enough to push enough wounds to finish them off.

At the moment, I'm back and forth on whether Plasma Command squad supported by Melta/Combi Melta Tac squads is better than Melta Command and Plasma/Combi-Plasma Tacs, all in pods.

 minigun762 wrote:

Good point on UM CT, that would help make a difference, hopefully enough to push enough wounds to finish them off.

At the moment, I'm back and forth on whether Plasma Command squad supported by Melta/Combi Melta Tac squads is better than Melta Command and Plasma/Combi-Plasma Tacs, all in pods.

It really does depend what the rest of your army can do. A Pod Command Squad's sole purpose is to identify and destroy the target they've been kitted to rip open. Ideally, this is something the rest of your army cannot do - because the Pod Squad should be able to deal with it on the turn they hit dirt. Are you weak to hordes? Five flamers will absolutely devastate any single blob. Lacking AP2 anti-infantry? Five plasma guns double-tapping will brutalize an otherwise tough-as-nails target. Meltas are an odd duck - there aren't as many single giant tanks in the game anymore, it's usually about MCs. On top of this, it's usually not the hardest thing to simply avoid one big scary tank rather than put 200pts worth of melta into it. The advent of Imperial Knights changes this somewhat, but I've spoken before as to my preferences for dealing with them (long range firepower, a melta pod is iffy at best for knocking them down). That said, if there's a monolith on the table? A land raider? A Battlewagon? Five meltas end it, but they have to not scatter beyond 12'' from their target (accounting for 6'' disembark).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also worth noting is that meltas do their job in one shot, generally, and then are fairly limited weapons (range-wise). Flamers also suffer from this. Plasma, on the other hand, mimics your army-wide engagement range of 24''.

I like plasma combi plasma tac squads. No particular reason, I just feel lol they run into things that require the ap2 rapid fire shots more. Also I think troops are less disposable then command squads. Which are cheap and consistent

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also worth noting is that meltas do their job in one shot, generally, and then are fairly limited weapons (range-wise). Flamers also suffer from this. Plasma, on the other hand, mimics your army-wide engagement range of 24''.

That's why I like the idea of spreading them out, as they are more flexible weapons with their extra range and wide variety of preferred targets.
Melta and Flamers are both specialized weapons and once you've kill off that big horde of infantry or that heavy tank, their value drops.

As much as I love DP melta, if.your opponent is wise, he'll bubblewrap his tanks out of melta range. 6" isn't much ground to cover. With plasma, you can go for light armor, trsnsports (first blood) or heavy infantry/MCs. If you go plasma, .definitely remember your apothecary though.

I'd go with SG over the command squad since they have the special ammo and are more versatile... Throw in a heavy flamer and they become a jack of all trades. I usually the sergeant with a pair of grav pistols.