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Hello
So, our community and I as TO contemplate experimental tournament with superheavies.
Since D weapons are so OP and result in “who’s titan shoots first” situation; we resolved to nerf D weapons for the event.
We came up with 2 variants what D weapon becomes:
1) S10 AP1.
2) S10 AP1 Ignore cover.
(and possibly armourbane in melee)

Which one you would argue is better?
Had any event tried it and did it worked?

option 2, if they argue about that, show them footage of a b-52 bombing run from the Vietnam war.

I also agree on armorbane.

One suggestion I've seen that helps tone down the worst offenders (turbo lasers and pulsars)...

D-weapons work as normal, however in the case of blasts only the model under the centre of the template is hit at strength D. Anything not under the centre is hit with S10 AP1 Ignores Cover

str 10 ap 1 with the Eldar D-cannon/wraith cannon Distort special rule, because surprise Distort is the actual pre-escalation balanced version in 40k for them.

One of the features of S D is that it ignores invulnerable. I think the main problem with S D is how many hullpoints/wounds it does. I would suggest S D becomes S 10 ap1 ignore cover and ignore invulnerables.

Another option is to run it as per the pre-6th (so 4th, I think) D weapons - that is, auto wounds/pens, ignores cover and INVs, with an +2 on the vehicle damage table. Swap auto wounds/pens for S10 and you're set.

None of the above, because either of those options just makes D-weapons worse than their non-D equivalents (since you can get STR 10 with a larger blast). The better solution is to make it so that D-weapons are dedicated "big stuff" killers, not generalist weapons that can kill anything big and still have enough blast area to kill infantry. So:

1) All D-weapons are reduced in size by one template. 5" becomes 3", giant flamer becomes a regular flamer. Though TBH I'd leave the Shadowsword and maybe the Ork tank at a 5" blast because otherwise they're pretty useless compared to titans.

2) The Warhound and Revenant weapons are reduced to one twin-linked shot instead of two shots, and optionally are no longer allowed to take more than one D-weapon each (modify the rules to let the Revenant mix weapons).

Alternatively, just ban the Warhound and Revenant. The real problem with Escalation isn't D-weapons in general, it's the fact that D-spam Warhounds and Revenants should be at least twice their current cost to be even remotely balanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Swap auto wounds/pens for S10 and you're set.

And then nobody ever takes them. I can have a Shadowsword with a 5" STR 10 blast, or a Stormblade with a 10" STR 10 blast that also has an alternate mode with two 7" STR 8 shots for killing infantry. You've reduced superheavies to being little more than a Vindicator/Demolisher with some extra range. Even with the primary weapon rule you've only got a ~50% chance to penetrate AV 14, which makes them pretty much useless as dedicated vehicle killers.

yeah,I'm not quite sure why GW thinks that a vu;can megabolter and a turbolaser desctructor should be on par. point costs for the differnt weapons are IMHO one thing needed to be done to titans

'D' weapons need to be the best weapons out there as that is the point to them, the issue is that as they completely ignore all defensive rules and powers they are very annoying to play against as a 6 point guardsman has exactly the same survivability as a giant super tough landraider.

My play group uses the following for 'D' weapons, they're not perfect rules but they make 'D' weapons very good whilst still allowing models to have a semblance of defence against them.

Destroyer Weapons:
Weapons with Strength of ‘D’ use their normal Range, AP, and other special rules.
They also use the following rules:
All hits are considered to be S11, may re-roll failed (or glancing) armour penetration rolls, have the Ignores Cover special rule and Armour saves cannot be taken against them. In addition all successful Invulnerable save, Feel No Pain, Resurrection Protocol and similar rolls taken against them must be re-rolled.
After all saves and effects have taken place, a model loses D3 Wounds or Hull Points in place of each single Wound or Hull Point it would normally lose.

 Peregrine wrote:
None of the above, because either of those options just makes D-weapons worse than their non-D equivalents (since you can get STR 10 with a larger blast). The better solution is to make it so that D-weapons are dedicated "big stuff" killers, not generalist weapons that can kill anything big and still have enough blast area to kill infantry. So:

1) All D-weapons are reduced in size by one template. 5" becomes 3", giant flamer becomes a regular flamer. Though TBH I'd leave the Shadowsword and maybe the Ork tank at a 5" blast because otherwise they're pretty useless compared to titans.

2) The Warhound and Revenant weapons are reduced to one twin-linked shot instead of two shots, and optionally are no longer allowed to take more than one D-weapon each (modify the rules to let the Revenant mix weapons).

Alternatively, just ban the Warhound and Revenant. The real problem with Escalation isn't D-weapons in general, it's the fact that D-spam Warhounds and Revenants should be at least twice their current cost to be even remotely balanced.

I think that Peregrine has basically got the answer. There's no point in making a universal rule to deal with three or four problematic weapon profiles.

I think D weapons are needed to balance the out of control power in units with Invul saves and cover saves. In a weird way, they will make people use transports more. I think that you should use them unaltered, and let the competitors sort it out with their army composition. It seems to me that Str D weapons are a perfect counter for nearly every Over Powered Deathstar, or lynchpin unit in every codex, except maybe the Helldrake.

Yeah... that's what all armies need... a super easy way to deal with Lynchpin units.

There is nothing more annoying that setting up my army, just to watch as he takes both my Tyrants off the board with his Revenant Titan if he goes first, and if he goes second, then he'll get to Shoot at all my other Monsters, instagibbing them.

I think the best fix would be to make it the old StrD.

Instant Death, auto wound, auto penetrate, and ignores cover.

Text removed -yakface

I'd say wound or penetrate on a 2+ (or automatically), Instant Death on models with wounds, +2 on vehicle/building damage chart (in addition to AP bonus, since they are all AP 2 or better) and Ignores Cover. I'm tempted to let Invulnerable Saves still work, just 'cause, but that's it.

When you face a whole army of 3++ units ,or a screamerstar with 2++ rerollable saves, you'll wish you had a Str D weapon to show them that not all cheese tastes good.

Grey Templar wrote:I think the best fix would be to make it the old StrD.

Instant Death, auto wound, auto penetrate, and ignores cover.

axeman1n wrote:When you face a whole army of 3++ units ,or a screamerstar with 2++ rerollable saves, you'll wish you had a Str D weapon to show them that not all cheese tastes good.

I agree that the old rules were generally better balanced, but I'd probably add a forced reroll of successful invulnerable saves, to counter the ridiculousness Axeman1n is talking about.

Although it may be I'm still bitter about my friend's Assault terminators wiping out a Stompa in a single turn...

 Jadenim wrote:
I agree that the old rules were generally better balanced, but I'd probably add a forced reroll off successful invulnerable saves, to counter the ridiculousness Axeman1n is talking about.

Those things need to be considered a separate issue, either fix them with their own changes or accept them as-is, but don't rely on D-weapons to be the solution. It's a really bad idea to have overpowered thing #1 be a counter to overpowered thing #2.

Agree with Peregrine on all counts

My personal preference would be:

• D-weapon blasts: Count as S10, AP whatever the weapon is, primary/ordnance weapon (same thing now). Re-roll all successful saves. If a blast weapon, the specific model under the center of the blast is hit *exactly* like the printed D-weapon rules (no saves at all), with the following exception: before rolling on the D-weapon table, the model can make a look out sir attempt (if eligible), and if successful, the full brunt of the D-weapon hit falls onto the replacement model. All damage rolled up must go onto that single target.

• D-weapon templates: Count as S10, AP whatever the weapon is, primary/ordnance weapon (same thing now). Ignore cover & re-roll all successful saves.

• If the D-weapon has no blast, then it works exactly as written in the Apoc book except that look out sir may be attempted (if eligible) as described above.

• D-weapon CC attacks work as printed except again, you can look out sir the whole hit onto another model before rolling on the chart as described above.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think the best fix would be to make it the old StrD.

Instant Death, auto wound, auto penetrate, and ignores cover.

This. Old str D was powerful but not stupidly OP, and still not available til apoc, now its just crazy good. Perhaps add re-roll successful invulnerable saves too?

Actually yakface's propsal is also pretty spot on