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 Swastakowey wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I am not a director, I can still see if movies are bad or not.

I am not a rulewriter, I can still see if rules are bad or not.

GW rules cost an above average amount of money that are below average in quality. However, because they are official and widespread, they are effectively the standard and are effectively necessary if you do not only play with those who trust you enough to and you spend enough time with to make custom rules.

This is not always a common situation.

Cool dont buy the DVD if the movie sucks.

Dont buy the rules if they suck.

Dont pay for over priced items. Clearly they are out of your value for money range. The blame does not fall on GW.

At this point I am not sure if you are serious.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
[ The rules are meant as guidelines and can be changed by the players at will.

$75 for a book that is just "guidelines" + $50 per codex full of guidelines and $83 worth of Escalation/Stronghold guidelines

Dont buy expensive guidlines then. That is not GW fault. It is your fault.

How, pray tell, do I, an existing 40K player, assess the quality of these extensive documents without purchase?

Do you not try out before you buy?

Do you stand in a bookshop and finish a novel before you decide to buy it? Do you watch a movie in the store before you rent it?

Just like you do not buy a car without trying it, just like you dont buy a boat without a test drive or 2, or a bicycle or anything you buy.

If I need to explain to you the distinction between your examples and the matter in hand, there is no hope for your future.

Test the water before diving in as the saying goes.

That isn't a saying.

No need to be spiteful because you didnt try it out before you buy it. There is no way you can be upset at GW for your own purchase.

Well, spiteful is such an erroneous term in this context I'm not entirely sure you know what it means, and who, pray tell, is responsible for GW producing a sub par product that I should be upset with other than GW? You're correct in that nobody forces anyone to purchase anything, you're utterly wrong to try and assert that if a customer is disappointed in that purchase that they cannot ascribe blame for that disappointment to the company that fething made it!!

Its a saying here in a country with water everywhere. A sensible one at that. The people who follow it tend to live longer

In terms of books, I will read a bit then try. If it sucks I dont sit on the internet complaining.

For movies, I rent then buy. Rent is my version of a trial. If it sucks I dont whine about it. Clearly its not for me.

You have a brain, use it. No need to buy crappy product. No need to complain. Its a product that doesnt meet your requirements. Move on.

False equivalence.

So much false equivalence.

Personally I think it is pretty bad. GW no longer gives a damn about anything but shilling the latest product. They don't care one lick about balance in their own words, and have shifted the goalposts constantly to turn 40k into something it was never meant to be. This is a company that by their own admission states that they believe their customers hobby is buying GW products.

If our Hobby centres do a great job, we will recruit lots of customers into our Hobby and they will enjoy spending their money on the products we make.

That quote is directly from GW's Investor Relations page under their business model. The only thing they care about is selling models, to the point where it's honestly surprising that they even have codexes - I would have half expected them to allow anyone to ally with anybody, to follow their mantra of "If you buy it you should be able to use it in a game".

So yeah, it's pretty bad. You get people who might not see it because they're lucky enough to play in a tight-knit club or group where they can house rule all the crap away, but the game itself is in a really poor place and the absolute clueless insanity from GW itself should be concerning.

The customer can complain if they are mislead (I.E told the book is 1000 pages, but its only 400 pages) but not if they dont like a product. Most store dont allow you to return goods you have changed your mind on.

Its still the person who buys what they call crap that the blame lies on. I will not give a boat back to a customer because they didnt like it. Even if it was their first boat. Im not obliged to. The same with any product.

Choose what you buy wisely.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
[ The rules are meant as guidelines and can be changed by the players at will.

$75 for a book that is just "guidelines" + $50 per codex full of guidelines and $83 worth of Escalation/Stronghold guidelines

Dont buy expensive guidlines then. That is not GW fault. It is your fault.

How, pray tell, do I, an existing 40K player, assess the quality of these extensive documents without purchase?

Look for reviews online? I do pretty detailed coverages of the books/supplements/dataslates (covering rules, wargear, warlord traits...pretty much everything but points cost), and there are a lot of others who do too.

If thousands of long time consumers of a company's products are all saying that there is a problem in the level of quality of a new product or line of products from said company, and the company fails to address these issues, then it is their fault.

These are not new consumers who have never tried wargaming complaining, no most of them aren't even picking up the hobby due to the price barrier, these are people who have been wargaming for years and decades, many of whom have been loyal GW customers since the early editions.

They are justified in their complaints about the declining level of quality in many aspects of the hobby.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
[ The rules are meant as guidelines and can be changed by the players at will.

$75 for a book that is just "guidelines" + $50 per codex full of guidelines and $83 worth of Escalation/Stronghold guidelines

Dont buy expensive guidlines then. That is not GW fault. It is your fault.

How, pray tell, do I, an existing 40K player, assess the quality of these extensive documents without purchase?

Look for reviews online? I do pretty detailed coverages of the books/supplements/dataslates (covering rules, wargear, warlord traits...pretty much everything but points cost), and there are a lot of others who do too.

There you go. A well written balanced review can inform you of what to expect when you buy a product. Many people I know look at reviews for games, books and movies all the time. Being a customer is easy. Research, compare and trial. Then you wont make bad purchases.

That you even need to do that in order to avoid a potential pitfall says enough.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That you even need to do that in order to avoid a potential pitfall says enough.

Um no. I did plenty of research before getting a bicycle today. That does not mean the bike is rubbish. I just chose the bike thats right for me. I didnt buy on impulse and end up with a bad product foe me.

Reviews for movies and video games? Maybe, there's an extensive range of both physical and digital organs one can consult, and perhaps identify one whose tastes broadly reflect your own, or at least consult enough to get a general consensus of whether its good or bad.

Reviews of wargaming rulesets? There are simply not enough people doing it, and look at just this thread, we've got people calling 6th utter gak, all the way through to someone trying to argue that the fact it's gak is somehow our fault?

Nice idea, fails in execution.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That you even need to do that in order to avoid a potential pitfall says enough.

Lots of people watch or read reviews of all sorts of stuff to gain more understanding of various products to choose the ones that are right for them, or to just be more aware of things in general (like watching Top Gear talk about an expensive car you'll never afford because you play 40k).

Woop-dee-doo, you tried out the bike and it ran along fine. You happily bought it.

It falls apart after a week, while you are out biking with buddies. Apparently it had bad internal quality that would not be visible without actually picking apart the bike by someone much more experienced in the matter. You, being a common man rather than a bike expert, did not predict this.

Your fault obviously, you should check what you buy better. Of course not the fault of the sellers or the makers of the bike, you did buy it after all.

 azreal13 wrote:
Reviews of wargaming rulesets? There are simply not enough people doing it, and look at just this thread, we've got people calling 6th utter gak, all the way through to someone trying to argue that the fact it's gak is somehow our fault?

Nice idea, fails in execution.

At the very least using them to get a sense of what's in a book is better than going in blind though, even if you don't agree with their perspective on how good or bad something is just learning about options and rules should give you a better sense if you're interested or not.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Woop-dee-doo, you tried out the bike and it ran along fine. You happily bought it.

It falls apart after a week, and apparently there's no refund for you. Apparently it had bad internal quality that would not be visible without actually picking apart the bike by someone much more experienced in the matter. You, being a common man rather than a bike expert, did not predict this.

Your fault obviously, you should check what you buy better.

Nope, the bike has a grantee that it will not break. I also have warranties and so forth. So if it falls apart within reason I legally have a replacement. Part of doing good shopping.

If GW sneds you a box of sand instead of a model, then thats GW fault. Not if you buy rules and dont like them.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That you even need to do that in order to avoid a potential pitfall says enough.

Um no. I did plenty of research before getting a bicycle today. That does not mean the bike is rubbish. I just chose the bike thats right for me. I didnt buy on impulse and end up with a bad product foe me.

Unfortunately Your Bike v2.0™ is released next weekend.

While it is technically possible for you to continue using Your Bike™ after this time, the entire cycling environment in your area will be upgraded to be compatible with Your Bike v2.0™, this may make it difficult to find compatible areas to use Your Bike™

Management apologises for any inconvenience caused.

Should have done better research.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Woop-dee-doo, you tried out the bike and it ran along fine. You happily bought it.

It falls apart after a week, and apparently there's no refund for you. Apparently it had bad internal quality that would not be visible without actually picking apart the bike by someone much more experienced in the matter. You, being a common man rather than a bike expert, did not predict this.

Your fault obviously, you should check what you buy better.

Nope, the bike has a grantee that it will not break. I also have warranties and so forth. So if it falls apart within reason I legally have a replacement. Part of doing good shopping.

If GW sneds you a box of sand instead of a model, then thats GW fault. Not if you buy rules and dont like them.

That is not the point.

Gaurantee or no, it is still a bad bike. You can replace it with a spoon or whatever.

In the same way, no matter how you try to shift the blame, the rules are still sub par.

 azreal13 wrote:
Reviews for movies and video games? Maybe, there's an extensive range of both physical and digital organs one can consult, and perhaps identify one whose tastes broadly reflect your own, or at least consult enough to get a general consensus of whether its good or bad.

Reviews of wargaming rulesets? There are simply not enough people doing it, and look at just this thread, we've got people calling 6th utter gak, all the way through to someone trying to argue that the fact it's gak is somehow our fault?

Nice idea, fails in execution.

How is this GWs fault?

Its your fault for wasting money on gak. Dont eat feces if you dont like it. Eat it if you like it. But dont lie under a goat, eat its crap and blame the goat it tastes funny.

Honestly I think I'm going to step back from this conversation before it gets too heated but I do want to say this:

Making gak rules is GW's fault. Buying gak rules because you had to have it day one and refused to wait to do some research isn't GW's fault. It's the consumer's fault for buying into blindly purchasing things just to keep up with the Joneses. Any research is better than no research when planning purchases, especially with something as hit or miss as GW is.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Reviews for movies and video games? Maybe, there's an extensive range of both physical and digital organs one can consult, and perhaps identify one whose tastes broadly reflect your own, or at least consult enough to get a general consensus of whether its good or bad.

Reviews of wargaming rulesets? There are simply not enough people doing it, and look at just this thread, we've got people calling 6th utter gak, all the way through to someone trying to argue that the fact it's gak is somehow our fault?

Nice idea, fails in execution.

How is this GWs fault?

Its your fault for wasting money on gak. Dont eat feces if you dont like it. Eat it if you like it. But dont lie under a goat, eat its crap and blame the goat it tastes funny.

No, we're blaming the goat because it disguises it as good food and sells it expensively. Even if a thorough check reveals the deception, the goat is still in the wrong.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That you even need to do that in order to avoid a potential pitfall says enough.

Um no. I did plenty of research before getting a bicycle today. That does not mean the bike is rubbish. I just chose the bike thats right for me. I didnt buy on impulse and end up with a bad product foe me.

Unfortunately Your Bike v2.0™ is released next weekend.

While it is technically possible for you to continue using Your Bike™ after this time, the entire cycling environment in your area will be upgraded to be compatible with Your Bike v2.0™, this may make it difficult to find compatible areas to use Your Bike™

Management apologises for any inconvenience caused.

Should have done better research.

My phone is an older model. I use it fine. I have my 4th editions and Codices that I can use if I want. My bike is still usable. If i want the next model I will buy it. But the bike I got is what I wanted for now. Just like 6th edition is what I want for now. I will replace when the next one comes if I like it. If not I will use the current one.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Making gak rules is GW's fault.

This is the only point I am looking to make here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That you even need to do that in order to avoid a potential pitfall says enough.

Um no. I did plenty of research before getting a bicycle today. That does not mean the bike is rubbish. I just chose the bike thats right for me. I didnt buy on impulse and end up with a bad product foe me.

Unfortunately Your Bike v2.0™ is released next weekend.

While it is technically possible for you to continue using Your Bike™ after this time, the entire cycling environment in your area will be upgraded to be compatible with Your Bike v2.0™, this may make it difficult to find compatible areas to use Your Bike™

Management apologises for any inconvenience caused.

Should have done better research.

My phone is an older model. I use it fine. I have my 4th editions and Codices that I can use if I want. My bike is still usable. If i want the next model I will buy it. But the bike I got is what I wanted for now. Just like 6th edition is what I want for now. I will replace when the next one comes if I like it. If not I will use the current one.

But what if everyone is now running around with new phones that can't do calls with your old phone, unless they start doing unwieldy modifications to it?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Woop-dee-doo, you tried out the bike and it ran along fine. You happily bought it.

It falls apart after a week, and apparently there's no refund for you. Apparently it had bad internal quality that would not be visible without actually picking apart the bike by someone much more experienced in the matter. You, being a common man rather than a bike expert, did not predict this.

Your fault obviously, you should check what you buy better.

Nope, the bike has a grantee that it will not break. I also have warranties and so forth. So if it falls apart within reason I legally have a replacement. Part of doing good shopping.

If GW sneds you a box of sand instead of a model, then thats GW fault. Not if you buy rules and dont like them.

That is not the point.

Gaurantee or no, it is still a bad bike. You can replace it with a spoon or whatever.

In the same way, no matter how you try to shift the blame, the rules are still sub par.

They are subpar for you. Go buy a better product that suits you. That is not GW fault. A 2 ton truck doesnt suit my needs. But I dont blame the company for not making the 2 ton truck half the size for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Making gak rules is GW's fault./quote]

This is the only point I am looking to make here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That you even need to do that in order to avoid a potential pitfall says enough.

Um no. I did plenty of research before getting a bicycle today. That does not mean the bike is rubbish. I just chose the bike thats right for me. I didnt buy on impulse and end up with a bad product foe me.

Unfortunately Your Bike v2.0™ is released next weekend.

While it is technically possible for you to continue using Your Bike™ after this time, the entire cycling environment in your area will be upgraded to be compatible with Your Bike v2.0™, this may make it difficult to find compatible areas to use Your Bike™

Management apologises for any inconvenience caused.

Should have done better research.

My phone is an older model. I use it fine. I have my 4th editions and Codices that I can use if I want. My bike is still usable. If i want the next model I will buy it. But the bike I got is what I wanted for now. Just like 6th edition is what I want for now. I will replace when the next one comes if I like it. If not I will use the current one.

But what if everyone is now running around with new phones that can't do calls with your old phone, unless they start doing unwieldy modifications to it?

When does this happen with both phones or rules? I can play 3rd edition tomorrow if I want just like I can with 6th edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Reviews for movies and video games? Maybe, there's an extensive range of both physical and digital organs one can consult, and perhaps identify one whose tastes broadly reflect your own, or at least consult enough to get a general consensus of whether its good or bad.

Reviews of wargaming rulesets? There are simply not enough people doing it, and look at just this thread, we've got people calling 6th utter gak, all the way through to someone trying to argue that the fact it's gak is somehow our fault?

Nice idea, fails in execution.

How is this GWs fault?

Its your fault for wasting money on gak. Dont eat feces if you dont like it. Eat it if you like it. But dont lie under a goat, eat its crap and blame the goat it tastes funny.

No, we're blaming the goat because it disguises it as good food and sells it expensively. Even if a thorough check reveals the deception, the goat is still in the wrong.

Everything in the commercial world is made to look better than it is. Its up to you to find what suits you.

Ok, I was wavering between naivety, lack of comprehension or trolling, I'm beginning to suspect a combination of all three.

We're done here kid, once you start trying to use goat gak in your arguments, its time for me to leave.

Your world view is breathtakingly narrow and idealised, I really hope the next few years broaden your perspective without kicking your arse.

Experience tells me that won't be the case.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Making gak rules is GW's fault.

This is the only point I am looking to make here.

And I will never argue that GW's rules are not as good as I feel they should be. I just think that anyone who rushes in to buy GW's stuff blindly and isn't doing it to review or share information about it with others (unless that's you're only army and you legitimately need to codex to keep playing your army) has some fault there too when they pick up something useless.

Internet, friends, store copies of books (if your store keeps a store copy that is), and thumbing through it if it isn't shrinkwrapped are all good ways to see what you're getting into before you buy and I seriously recommend all of them over blind purchases, especially when looking at new armies/products.

 azreal13 wrote:
Ok, I was wavering between naivety, lack of comprehension or trolling, I'm beginning to suspect a combination of all three.

We're done here kid, once you start trying to use goat gak in your arguments, its time for me to leave.

Your world view is breathtakingly narrow and idealised, I really hope the next few years broaden your perspective without kicking your arse.

Experience tells me that won't be the case.

Uhuh, you are just angry because you are wrong. GW is a product like any other. Dont like it done buy it.

The blame is on you as a customer. If the rule book fell a part then you have a right to complain unless it broke because you where being stupid with it. But if you dont like the content then you cant complain.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Woop-dee-doo, you tried out the bike and it ran along fine. You happily bought it.

It falls apart after a week, and apparently there's no refund for you. Apparently it had bad internal quality that would not be visible without actually picking apart the bike by someone much more experienced in the matter. You, being a common man rather than a bike expert, did not predict this.

Your fault obviously, you should check what you buy better.

Nope, the bike has a grantee that it will not break. I also have warranties and so forth. So if it falls apart within reason I legally have a replacement. Part of doing good shopping.

If GW sneds you a box of sand instead of a model, then thats GW fault. Not if you buy rules and dont like them.

If someone has been playing for a few editions and owns a bunch of models and then notices a huge drop off in rules quality with the new edition, then it is GW's fault

 Avinash_Tyagi wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Woop-dee-doo, you tried out the bike and it ran along fine. You happily bought it.

It falls apart after a week, and apparently there's no refund for you. Apparently it had bad internal quality that would not be visible without actually picking apart the bike by someone much more experienced in the matter. You, being a common man rather than a bike expert, did not predict this.

Your fault obviously, you should check what you buy better.

Nope, the bike has a grantee that it will not break. I also have warranties and so forth. So if it falls apart within reason I legally have a replacement. Part of doing good shopping.

If GW sneds you a box of sand instead of a model, then thats GW fault. Not if you buy rules and dont like them.

If someone has been playing for a few editions and owns a bunch of models and then notices a huge drop off in rules quality with the new edition, then it is GW's fault

No, the next edition phone came out and I dont like it as much as my current phone. I invested money and phone credit in my current phone. Am I allowed to go nuts at the company for not making the second phone perfect for my needs. No. You can keep using the old one if thats what you like.

Dont like the new rules? Dont buy them or use them.

 Avinash_Tyagi wrote:
If someone has been playing for a few editions and owns a bunch of models and then notices a huge drop off in rules quality with the new edition, then it is GW's fault

They need more devs, and I mean ones with different views about the game, to help spread the workload out and balance things better. I've recently heard from a friend that Phil Kelly apparently looks pretty haggard. They're working the devs pretty much around the clock right now and unless the situation is fixed for them I don't think rules will get better, I think they'll stay in this holding pattern we're already seeing.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Ok, I was wavering between naivety, lack of comprehension or trolling, I'm beginning to suspect a combination of all three.

We're done here kid, once you start trying to use goat gak in your arguments, its time for me to leave.

Your world view is breathtakingly narrow and idealised, I really hope the next few years broaden your perspective without kicking your arse.

Experience tells me that won't be the case.

Uhuh, you are just angry because you are wrong. GW is a product like any other. Dont like it done buy it.

The blame is on you as a customer. If the rule book fell a part then you have a right to complain unless it broke because you where being stupid with it. But if you dont like the content then you cant complain.

There's no anger here.

Maybe a hint of frustration that I can't really say what I think because I'm respecting Rule #1, but however you dress it, "don't like it, don't buy it" is a Primary school level argument.

Congrats on drawing out one more post from me, really got to go now.