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Made in gb
Infiltrating Broodlord






Good post, OP.

We play every week or so, with oppos who mostly have beautifully-painted armies, lots of 'em for the most part, and the game's given everyone a huge amount of pleasure. they're all reasonable people, who'll discuss whether you wanna play escalation, whether it's cool to bring an Imperial Knight, whether you're playing a relaxed game or a super-competitive game. I"m sure none of them thinks GW is perfect... but they've got better things to do than spend hours complaining.

   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Wow. GW can't make everyone happy. First a lot of people were asking for quicker releases, and GW has done it. A lot and I mean a lot of people were asking for a "Living rule book" like "other games systems" and GW does it.

So I guess GW can't do anything because there will be someone who is complaining/bitching/crying/bemoaning what GW does.

It's one thing to say people are criticizing GW for their choices made, but I don't really see people criticizing, but complaining and whinnying. There is a difference. One is constructive, the other is deconstructive. Nobody likes to be attacked on.

My god, what am I doing? I don't agree with a lot of what GW does, but I am just tired of all the crying going on. NO It's not criticizing it's just complaining, and in most cases it's complaining for complaining sake.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
My big issue is the assumption that all players of 40k dislike Escalation and Knight Titans in 'normal' games of 40k.

Who was assuming that?


I also have an issue with people pretending that having all of these different options makes it impossible to find a game they're comfortable with.

And so, again, who was doing that?

Nobody that I've seen has claimed it is impossible. Just that it adds another impediment to getting a game happening.


Finally, those talking about how broken the rules are because they allow cheese lists, and also the fact that there are a number of sub-optimal units in the codexes, perhaps the problem is your approach to the game?

No, it really isn't. Unbalanced codexes hurt the casual game just as much as the 'competitive' game.


Should everyone else change their lists because a few people want to stomp everyone else into the ground?

You have clearly missed the point here. If the game was more balanced, 'everyone' wouldn't need to change their lists.

And the casual player who wants to play a list with multiple Heldrakes just because he likes the model wouldn't be made to feel like he is playing the game wrong.


For me, insisting on rigid balance would limit the opportunity for 'fluffy' or narrative games, would narrow the scope of which models could be produced,...

How?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Davor wrote:
So I guess GW can't do anything because there will be someone who is complaining/bitching/crying/bemoaning what GW does.

Is it really that surprising to you that different people want different things?

Or that sacrificing quality for the sake of faster releases won't necessarily be seen as an improvement on slow releases?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/30 16:56:31


 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






I also have an issue with people pretending that having all of these different options makes it impossible to find a game they're comfortable with. If you play with a group of mates, you can agree beforehand, either face to face or on Facebook or whatever you talk to your mates on. If you are part of a club, you can discuss it the week beforehand, or on forums. If you play at a FLGS, you can discuss it beforehand,. If someone refuses to compromise then just don't play them.
My FLGS just started implementing the gentleman's code. It's a basic agreement to not bring "OP" lists, escalation units, Stronghold assault, or IK. This doesn't open up options for people. This closes doors. I only get the chance for about one game a week barring tournaments. I don't want to have to sift through opponents and lists for a pick up game. I don't want to turn someone down for a game because of his legal list. Nobody says it is impossible to get a game in of the type you want. What most of us are saying is that it shouldn't take that much work for "beer and pretzels" games. It's feeling more and more like I need a checklist for someone to fill out and run through a program to determine what type of game we should be playing.
Another thing is that many of the people complaining about the direction 40k is taking haven't actually played Escalation, Stronghold Assault etc. How can you criticise something until you have tried it out? Who knows, maybe you'll have fun.
Battle reports can be a good source. Frontline games did a report when escalation hit, showing how a Revenent Titan kill two armies by itself. As a player I know that SD weapons make it pointless to spend points on Invul and FNP saves or SCs and that you're going to have to dedicate a large portion to removing it from the game as early as possible.

insisting on rigid balance would limit the opportunity for 'fluffy' or narrative games, would narrow the scope of which models could be produced, and would turn it into another game entirely.
I'm sorry, but this looks blatantly wrong. How would having a balanced and less random system limit the ability for fluffy and narrative games? DId the previous editions have severe difficulty forging a narrative? How does making more balanced rules between models limit their ability to produce models? I never heard anyone complain that MtG has a limited number of cards or that Warmahordes has limited units in their balanced rules. How does it make it something else? If you enjoy a fluffy army and forging the narrative, then what part of a balance rule set prohibit that? How would it even be possible to do that?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/30 17:06:27


I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

Contrary to popular belief, game balance is not harmful to casual play.

Currently ongoing projects:
Horus Heresy Alpha Legion
Tyranids  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






St. Albans

 Savageconvoy wrote:

My FLGS just started implementing the gentleman's code. It's a basic agreement to not bring "OP" lists, escalation units, Stronghold assault, or IK. This doesn't open up options for people. This closes doors. I only get the chance for about one game a week barring tournaments. I don't want to have to sift through opponents and lists for a pick up game. I don't want to turn someone down for a game because of his legal list. Nobody says it is impossible to get a game in of the type you want. What most of us are saying is that it shouldn't take that much work for "beer and pretzels" games. It's feeling more and more like I need a checklist for someone to fill out and run through a program to determine what type of game we should be playing.


How is that hard work? You - "I don't want to play with superheavies or stronghold assault". Opponent - "Ok", or "No thanks". Surely at your FLGS there's the opportunity to get people's phone numbers, make friends on Facebook to discuss, etc? If none of you have phones or are on Facebook, I would suggest asking the FLGS owner to set up a forum to arrange games, or maybe a sign-up sheet?

]Battle reports can be a good source. Frontline games did a report when escalation hit, showing how a Revenent Titan kill two armies by itself. As a player I know that SD weapons make it pointless to spend points on Invul and FNP saves or SCs and that you're going to have to dedicate a large portion to removing it from the game as early as possible.


Yep, Escalation changes the game, doesn't mean it's not fun. I recently played a great game with my Warhound Titan against my friend's Stompa allied with Guard. Game was over in a couple of hours, made for a nice casual game which looked great and let us use our big, overpriced toys. We agreed beforehand we would play Escalation, where's the problem?

I'm sorry, but this looks blatantly wrong. How would having a balanced and less random system limit the ability for fluffy and narrative games? DId the previous editions have severe difficulty forging a narrative? How does making more balanced rules between models limit their ability to produce models? I never heard anyone complain that MtG has a limited number of cards or that Warmahordes has limited units in their balanced rules. How does it make it something else? If you enjoy a fluffy army and forging the narrative, then what part of a balance rule set prohibit that? How would it even be possible to do that?


You just complained about how having superheavies in normal games, and then suggest that a strictly balanced ruleset wouldn't limit the models GW produces? The hate the Knight Titans have gotten shows that, if they could, the balance crowd would limit what it being produced. Plus, previous editions also had the potential to be extremely unbalanced [Necrons & Grey Knights in 5th for example, people have very short memories]. You're right that balanced rules wouldn't necessarily preclude a fluffy game, but I'm sure that If the rules were a lot more balanced, people would be a lot less open to introducing more random/fun elements.

 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




 insaniak wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Davor wrote:
So I guess GW can't do anything because there will be someone who is complaining/bitching/crying/bemoaning what GW does.

Is it really that surprising to you that different people want different things?

Or that sacrificing quality for the sake of faster releases won't necessarily be seen as an improvement on slow releases?


Yes you are correct, people want different things. All I am trying to say is, there is a way of displaying on our dissatisfaction. On here on Dakkadakka. On BoLS, B&C and a few more forums and it's not people criticizing, it's people just whining. Not even complaining, but whining like little 5 year olds instead of grown up men.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

I think people could play a lot of what's in Stronghold and just avoid the Strength D AV15 options without major issues, but that's just me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, game balance is not harmful to casual play.

No but it is harmful to GW's bottom line and release schedule as they need to bring in more people, allow for more play testing, ect.

That's why I feel they should basically do what FW does and open beta rules through the WD for new stuff and take the input we give them and adjust the final product when it comes out in the codex proper.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/30 17:41:26


 
   
Made in us
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





 Swastakowey wrote:
 azreal13 wrote:
 Swastakowey wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
[ The rules are meant as guidelines and can be changed by the players at will.
$75 for a book that is just "guidelines" + $50 per codex full of guidelines and $83 worth of Escalation/Stronghold guidelines


Dont buy expensive guidlines then. That is not GW fault. It is your fault.


How, pray tell, do I, an existing 40K player, assess the quality of these extensive documents without purchase?


Do you not try out before you buy? Just like you do not buy a car without trying it, just like you dont buy a boat without a test drive or 2, or a bicycle or anything you buy. Test the water before diving in as the saying goes. No need to be spiteful because you didnt try it out before you buy it. There is no way you can be upset at GW for your own purchase.


How do you "try out" a book before reading it?? Logic fail.
You can't.

I will pick up a book from a new(to me) author in the paperback section or check out a book from the library to check out his quality of story telling/recipes/know-how. I then base my future purchases based on the quality consistency of said writing from the author. I used to buy every every book that Stephen King put out, then his quality began to lag and I stopped buying them. If "A Song of Ice and Fire" ends poorly I will never buy another G R R Martin book, but he'll probably be dead so it won't matter.

Therein lies the problem with GW. No consistency in its product quality. At least with models, I can look at the box and know if I will like what I'm getting. Can't do that with a book, there's a reason for the phrase "You can't judge a book by it's cover". That's such common knowledge that it became a cliche',

Now, you may have a group of friends where you each take turns being the chump that has to buy a book sight unseen, so that everyone gets to check it out before buying it themselves. That just spreads the misery and apprehension around.
Now, if public libraries were to start lending these books, you would have a valid point. But that would also put GW out of the rule printing business as no one would ever have to actually buy the rules. Just check them out for free and then scan them into their computer.

Meks is da best! Dey makes go fasta and mo dakka!  
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




 Idolator wrote:


Now, if public libraries were to start lending these books, you would have a valid point. But that would also put GW out of the rule printing business as no one would ever have to actually buy the rules. Just check them out for free and then scan them into their computer.


What, you mean it's not being done now? I agree until this point. It's being done now, and people are still buying the books.

There is ways of checking it out before buying. HELL, you can even go into a GW store or FLGS and read the book before buying. I know I did that with the 4th edition BRB, and didn't buy it for the extra stuff in there didn't justify the extra price for me. So yes you can read the BRB before buying it. Even if it's shrinked wrapped, there should be an open copy for people to look at behind the counter.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in us
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think people could play a lot of what's in Stronghold and just avoid the Strength D AV15 options without major issues, but that's just me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, game balance is not harmful to casual play.

No but it is harmful to GW's bottom line and release schedule as they need to bring in more people, allow for more play testing, ect.

That's why I feel they should basically do what FW does and open beta rules through the WD for new stuff and take the input we give them and adjust the final product when it comes out in the codex proper.


I don't think that they are bringing in more people at this point. I believe that they have reached maximum market penetration as well as market saturation. There will be no further discernible, growth in the table top gaming market. They have now moved on to now attempting to squeeze as much capital as they can out of their existing market share.

Meks is da best! Dey makes go fasta and mo dakka!  
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 Idolator wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think people could play a lot of what's in Stronghold and just avoid the Strength D AV15 options without major issues, but that's just me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, game balance is not harmful to casual play.

No but it is harmful to GW's bottom line and release schedule as they need to bring in more people, allow for more play testing, ect.

That's why I feel they should basically do what FW does and open beta rules through the WD for new stuff and take the input we give them and adjust the final product when it comes out in the codex proper.


I don't think that they are bringing in more people at this point. I believe that they have reached maximum market penetration as well as market saturation. There will be no further discernible, growth in the table top gaming market. They have now moved on to now attempting to squeeze as much capital as they can out of their existing market share.

When I said "bring more people in" I meant employees, not customers.
   
Made in us
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





Davor wrote:
 Idolator wrote:


Now, if public libraries were to start lending these books, you would have a valid point. But that would also put GW out of the rule printing business as no one would ever have to actually buy the rules. Just check them out for free and then scan them into their computer.


What, you mean it's not being done now? I agree until this point. It's being done now, and people are still buying the books.

There is ways of checking it out before buying. HELL, you can even go into a GW store or FLGS and read the book before buying. I know I did that with the 4th edition BRB, and didn't buy it for the extra stuff in there didn't justify the extra price for me. So yes you can read the BRB before buying it. Even if it's shrinked wrapped, there should be an open copy for people to look at behind the counter.


You could do that, if you have the time and a gaming store is near at hand and the store does have copies to peruse and if the book isn't digital only. So yes, it is possible to peruse a copy of the rules. Do these gaming stores allow you to copy down the info for you to use in list building at home? You know that it does take more than a few tries to figure out what works and what doesn't, more than a bit of play testing to find out what rules conflict with existing rules.

Meks is da best! Dey makes go fasta and mo dakka!  
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Why do you need a few tries? I thought Mathhammer does it all. You should be able to see all on the first read. I kid, I kid.

I am shocked GW doesn't have "Quick Rules" to download and try like other systems do. I guess it's GW policy now of "don't give ANYTHING for Free" anymore.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






 tyrannosaurus wrote:

How is that hard work? You - "I don't want to play with superheavies or stronghold assault". Opponent - "Ok", or "No thanks". Surely at your FLGS there's the opportunity to get people's phone numbers, make friends on Facebook to discuss, etc? If none of you have phones or are on Facebook, I would suggest asking the FLGS owner to set up a forum to arrange games, or maybe a sign-up sheet?
It's hard because of the reasons already mentioned. It's supposed to be a beer and pretzel game, right? Why do I need to set up in advance or even discuss prior to a game about all the options we aren't going to take because it further destabilizes the balance? It's not "Want to play 40K? 1750?" it's "Want to play 40K? 1750? Escalation? Which army? Orks, that's fine the stompa isn't so bad. Stronghold Assault? no thanks, no need for extra shields. Allies or no? Supplements or no? Data slates or no? Formations?" Get the idea?
Yep, Escalation changes the game, doesn't mean it's not fun. I recently played a great game with my Warhound Titan against my friend's Stompa allied with Guard. Game was over in a couple of hours, made for a nice casual game which looked great and let us use our big, overpriced toys. We agreed beforehand we would play Escalation, where's the problem?
I'm not saying, nor ever said that you couldn't have a casual game and that a side affect would be fun. However there is still problems with a unit like the Revenant, which are totally fluffy, needing an incredible amount of anti-armor against it at long range. You had a balance game, good. But you can't argue that there is no imbalance in the same scenario with different armies. One unit, one model, should not ever swing the balance of the game so much.


You just complained about how having superheavies in normal games,
I didn't really. I said that we agreed not to use them because we didn't want to start collecting outside the standard units and books and that a few models just don't work in the current balance. I'm all for Kornemowers, stompas, baneblades, and so on being in normal games, if the rules were balanced for it.

and then suggest that a strictly balanced ruleset wouldn't limit the models GW produces?
Asking that super heavies be balanced in with the rest of the game means that super heavy sales would go down? Or that more casual players wouldn't be interested in expanding into a balanced high point army? What?

The hate the Knight Titans have gotten shows that, if they could,
How would asking for a balanced unit in a balanced codex within a balance game reduce the sale of an IK? Can you honestly answer this? In what possible way would "not driving out your fan base" cause sales to plummet?

but I'm sure that If the rules were a lot more balanced, people would be a lot less open to introducing more random/fun elements.
Okay, how are random elements fluffy? More importantly why can't you have random elements? It's a dice game. A Firewarrior will kill a swarmlord at some time due to the nature of the game. How does stopping 2++ with re-rolls also stop the ability to have a warp storm table or something?

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in gb
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 SHUPPET wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:



So everyone who throws criticism at GW near daily, remember you guys are the ones who were dumb enough to buy into something that doesnt satisfy you fully. [Blah blah blah]

Oh! Don't you dare critique the product you have payed for ! You have absolutely no right !


So if you already have a 40k army, you have no right to complain, because they already have your money, but if you don't have any 40k armies, you still have no right to complain because you're not a paying customer?

Makes perfect sense.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

 Grimtuff wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:



So everyone who throws criticism at GW near daily, remember you guys are the ones who were dumb enough to buy into something that doesnt satisfy you fully. [Blah blah blah]

Oh! Don't you dare critique the product you have payed for ! You have absolutely no right !


So if you already have a 40k army, you have no right to complain, because they already have your money, but if you don't have any 40k armies, you still have no right to complain because you're not a paying customer?

Makes perfect sense.


Pretty much. Everyone will be happier this way. You wont pollute everything with doom and gloom if you dont complain. You wont have anything to be annoyed about if you leave the game. Simple really.

And its not hard to test a book first. Play games with people who have the book. After all its the best way to test the game. Why would you buy the game if you had no one to play with in the first place?

Also its not nearly as bad as you make out. Most people use allies at most. Just because people can use all the mentioned bits doesnt mean every game is a huge process of elimination. You are just complaining. On the really slim chance your FLGS is like that then thats not GW fault at all. they provided options and obviously the people liked those options and decided to use them. So unless GW wants to not sell lots of product to those people (which is stupid) then you are gonna have to live with the players deciding to make use of options they like.

The problem is for the most part its not critique for you people. Its repeating the same short written sentences you wrote a thread or 2 earlier. Thats complaining. So maybe write a review or put effort into your criticism and make it really long and informative like a decent critic would. People wouldnt mind so much im sure. But instead you guys just smear it all over the place in small repetitive amounts.

Go look at the massed complaining from 2000 onward. Guess what? Its practically the same. Its quite funny really. Like someone said earlier, no mater what they do the same few people will complain.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Thought I would check out the stronghold assault book before I decided to buy it. Unfortunately it comes shrink wrapped =/ Kinda glad I couldn't open it and check it out I might have bought it but since I didn't a month or so goes by and I can see that nobody wants to play with it so it would have been a waste of money.
   
Made in gb
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Swastakowey wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:



So everyone who throws criticism at GW near daily, remember you guys are the ones who were dumb enough to buy into something that doesnt satisfy you fully. [Blah blah blah]

Oh! Don't you dare critique the product you have payed for ! You have absolutely no right !


So if you already have a 40k army, you have no right to complain, because they already have your money, but if you don't have any 40k armies, you still have no right to complain because you're not a paying customer?

Makes perfect sense.


Pretty much. Everyone will be happier this way. You wont pollute everything with doom and gloom if you dont complain. You wont have anything to be annoyed about if you leave the game. Simple really.

And its not hard to test a book first. Play games with people who have the book. After all its the best way to test the game. Why would you buy the game if you had no one to play with in the first place?

Also its not nearly as bad as you make out. Most people use allies at most. Just because people can use all the mentioned bits doesnt mean every game is a huge process of elimination. You are just complaining. On the really slim chance your FLGS is like that then thats not GW fault at all. they provided options and obviously the people liked those options and decided to use them. So unless GW wants to not sell lots of product to those people (which is stupid) then you are gonna have to live with the players deciding to make use of options they like.

The problem is for the most part its not critique for you people. Its repeating the same short written sentences you wrote a thread or 2 earlier. Thats complaining. So maybe write a review or put effort into your criticism and make it really long and informative like a decent critic would. People wouldnt mind so much im sure. But instead you guys just smear it all over the place in small repetitive amounts.

Go look at the massed complaining from 2000 onward. Guess what? Its practically the same. Its quite funny really. Like someone said earlier, no mater what they do the same few people will complain.




http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/facetious

There really is nothing to say to you kiddo. I'm done.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

 Grimtuff wrote:
 Swastakowey wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:



So everyone who throws criticism at GW near daily, remember you guys are the ones who were dumb enough to buy into something that doesnt satisfy you fully. [Blah blah blah]

Oh! Don't you dare critique the product you have payed for ! You have absolutely no right !


So if you already have a 40k army, you have no right to complain, because they already have your money, but if you don't have any 40k armies, you still have no right to complain because you're not a paying customer?

Makes perfect sense.


Pretty much. Everyone will be happier this way. You wont pollute everything with doom and gloom if you dont complain. You wont have anything to be annoyed about if you leave the game. Simple really.

And its not hard to test a book first. Play games with people who have the book. After all its the best way to test the game. Why would you buy the game if you had no one to play with in the first place?

Also its not nearly as bad as you make out. Most people use allies at most. Just because people can use all the mentioned bits doesnt mean every game is a huge process of elimination. You are just complaining. On the really slim chance your FLGS is like that then thats not GW fault at all. they provided options and obviously the people liked those options and decided to use them. So unless GW wants to not sell lots of product to those people (which is stupid) then you are gonna have to live with the players deciding to make use of options they like.

The problem is for the most part its not critique for you people. Its repeating the same short written sentences you wrote a thread or 2 earlier. Thats complaining. So maybe write a review or put effort into your criticism and make it really long and informative like a decent critic would. People wouldnt mind so much im sure. But instead you guys just smear it all over the place in small repetitive amounts.

Go look at the massed complaining from 2000 onward. Guess what? Its practically the same. Its quite funny really. Like someone said earlier, no mater what they do the same few people will complain.




http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/facetious

There really is nothing to say to you kiddo. I'm done.


Excellent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pepe5454 wrote:
Thought I would check out the stronghold assault book before I decided to buy it. Unfortunately it comes shrink wrapped =/ Kinda glad I couldn't open it and check it out I might have bought it but since I didn't a month or so goes by and I can see that nobody wants to play with it so it would have been a waste of money.


Yea thats why you wait. I would call that smart shopping. Dont buy it unless you are super sure you want it. You wont be disappointed if you buy all GW products that way.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/30 21:06:44


 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






 Swastakowey wrote:
Everyone will be happier this way.
This is completely and utterly false and you should know better than to assume such a thing. Not even going along with the idea that you can't please everyone, this has to be one of the most insane statements I've ever read. You can't do anything about anything besides giving a positive review and you some how think that everyone will be happier in a market with no actual reviews or critiques of the product? That we can't speak on our behalf as people who have endured the game and it's cycles of ups and downs to try and present an accurate tone for the overall welfare of the game? You put down everything that does not conform to your opinion as baseless complaining. There is no rational discussion with you, there is no reasoning, and there is no compromise. Please, do give some examples of what I should be allowed to say
You wont pollute everything with doom and gloom if you dont complain.
I don't get this at all. It's absurd for us to make a reasoned statement about the quality of a product based on it's marketed title as premium while competitors seem to be doing so much more with so little. But you get to make these sweeping generalities about anyone that doesn't have an opinion that matches yours. You are honestly the most negative person in this entire thread based on your inability to even attempt to understand the opposite side.
You wont have anything to be annoyed about if you leave the game. Simple really.
Except the large investment I put into models and books for a game that I'm not going to play anymore.
thats not GW fault at all.
I mentioned this earlier. Can you name a situation in which GW would be at fault? I don't think you understand the responsibilities of producer or consumer. You seem to have the most Libertarian tone I've ever heard in that the company can never do any wrong.

The problem is for the most part its not critique for you people. Its repeating the same short written sentences you wrote a thread or 2 earlier.
Like just be positive no matter what or quit the game entirely. There is no middle ground with you and no real sympathy in your position. As long as you can have your game you don't care about anyone else's opinion or the actual effects of the game.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





 Savageconvoy wrote:
 tyrannosaurus wrote:

How is that hard work? You - "I don't want to play with superheavies or stronghold assault". Opponent - "Ok", or "No thanks". Surely at your FLGS there's the opportunity to get people's phone numbers, make friends on Facebook to discuss, etc? If none of you have phones or are on Facebook, I would suggest asking the FLGS owner to set up a forum to arrange games, or maybe a sign-up sheet?
It's hard because of the reasons already mentioned. It's supposed to be a beer and pretzel game, right? Why do I need to set up in advance or even discuss prior to a game about all the options we aren't going to take because it further destabilizes the balance? It's not "Want to play 40K? 1750?" it's "Want to play 40K? 1750? Escalation? Which army? Orks, that's fine the stompa isn't so bad. Stronghold Assault? no thanks, no need for extra shields. Allies or no? Supplements or no? Data slates or no? Formations?" Get the idea?


Yeah, I get it. I get it that it's not that hard at all to open one's mouth. It's better to spend a few minutes to figure out what kind of game you're playing than spending a few hours in a game that you won't enjoy.
It would take less time to figure that out than it took to write all that out. So no, its not too much to ask.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/30 21:18:49




Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




@ grimstuff. Love your emoicons. Daniel Brian Yes chant. LOL

Back on topic. You know what I think is funny. If we take the complaints from 20 years ago, they would almost be exactly the same today.

Just like how GW doesn't change the time line, the complaining is the same. Nothing changes, it's always the same. Just different people, but same none the less. I wonder if that is part of the Games Workshop Hobby tm. Buy, assemble, paint, play and complain.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/30 21:19:31


Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in gb
Drakhun





I love my 40k. Everyone who visits this forum must have something good to say about it, else why would they be here. But there are things about it that we don't like, especially the older players who have seen it change over the years. It's a bit like watching your baby daughter turning into a rampaging sexual predator. Some parents are fine with it, others are not.

DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

Davor wrote:
@ grimstuff. Love your emoicons. Daniel Brian Yes chant. LOL

Back on topic. You know what I think is funny. If we take the complaints from 20 years ago, they would almost be exactly the same today.

Just like how GW doesn't change the time line, the complaining is the same. Nothing changes, it's always the same. Just different people, but same none the less. I wonder if that is part of the Games Workshop Hobby tm. Buy, assemble, paint, play and complain.


Exactly what im starting to think. I mean seriously, these people should go have a read. Just change your search filter from 1995-2005 and search "Games Work Shop prices". Skip all the links that are to the GW site and see for yourself. From there you will find people saying exactly what you guys are saying as early as the year 2000. 14 Years of unchanged complaints from an ever changing company.

Get over it people. You have complained for long enough. Nothings gonna happen. Dont buy something you dont like. It is oh so simple.
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






 MWHistorian wrote:

Yeah, I get it. I get it that it's not that hard at all to open one's mouth. It's better to spend a few minutes to figure out what kind of game you're playing than spending a few hours in a game that you won't enjoy.
It would take less time to figure that out than it took to write all that out. So no, its not too much to ask.
So you think it's perfectly reasonable to declare something a "beer and pretzel" game when it requires extensive houseruling (Don't spam unit x, don't take formations, don't take data slates, etc) to people who may well have fluffy and justified reasons for taking those, that the company produces and promotes, to have a "casual" game? Do you think it's fair that people have these completely GW approved legal army lists that they just can't use because of the simple opinion that "Even though GW produces a perfectly fine game as it is, my opinion on what is and is not allowed is far superior to their own. But not so superior that it would make the game seem like anything less than fine the way it is, despite my opinion based house ruling."

I will admit that it does take less time to set this up than playing a bad game, but that doesn't mean asking for a balanced system is wrong. Afterall, it looks like the casual side more than anything else will produce more arbitrary house ruling and be far more restrictive on what their opponent is allowed to bring. For example there is a battle where it mentions bringing multiple Riptides against the Imperium, so I have a fluffy Riptide spam list. When I propose this to casual players they always respond with "It won't be fun" or that it's a "douchey" list, but never give any real reasoning behind it.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 Swastakowey wrote:
Davor wrote:
@ grimstuff. Love your emoicons. Daniel Brian Yes chant. LOL

Back on topic. You know what I think is funny. If we take the complaints from 20 years ago, they would almost be exactly the same today.

Just like how GW doesn't change the time line, the complaining is the same. Nothing changes, it's always the same. Just different people, but same none the less. I wonder if that is part of the Games Workshop Hobby tm. Buy, assemble, paint, play and complain.


Exactly what im starting to think. I mean seriously, these people should go have a read. Just change your search filter from 1995-2005 and search "Games Work Shop prices". Skip all the links that are to the GW site and see for yourself. From there you will find people saying exactly what you guys are saying as early as the year 2000. 14 Years of unchanged complaints from an ever changing company.

Get over it people. You have complained for long enough. Nothings gonna happen. Dont buy something you dont like. It is oh so simple.


it's not that simple. As customers a business should listen to valid complaints, and at least take in mind all reasonable complaints even if they don't actually do it. What you're advocating is basically "Love it or leave it" which is insanity. The fact so many people have complained and GW has decided instead to stick its head in the sand and outright just pull anything that gives the customer a voice (see the prior and new pulling of social media) indicates a problem with the company, and people are allowed to complain about it.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in gb
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Swastakowey wrote:

Exactly what im starting to think. I mean seriously, these people should go have a read. Just change your search filter from 1995-2005 and search "Games Work Shop prices". Skip all the links that are to the GW site and see for yourself. From there you will find people saying exactly what you guys are saying as early as the year 2000. 14 Years of unchanged complaints from an ever changing company.

Get over it people. You have complained for long enough. Nothings gonna happen. Dont buy something you dont like. It is oh so simple.


Nice red herring you've got there. It's funny, as no-one in this thread is complaining about pricing.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

GW know the fans are unhappy, yet they dont to jack except to keep raising prices and producing more and more unbalanced books designed to sell big kits.

Other companies would address the concerns of their customers, GW puts fingers in their collective ears and keeps right on doing whats killing their profits.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Davor wrote:
Wow. GW can't make everyone happy. First a lot of people were asking for quicker releases, and GW has done it.


We wanted quicker releases without sacrificing quality. We aren't getting all that much more legitimate content now, we're just getting it spread across multiple $50 books. And any improvements in the release schedule seem to have been obtained by spending even less time and effort on new releases, and just rushing out half-finished books as fast as possible.

A lot and I mean a lot of people were asking for a "Living rule book" like "other games systems" and GW does it.


No, GW doesn't do it at all. A "living rule book" means that problems are fixed. GW hasn't even bothered to FAQ obvious problems.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
 
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