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 -DE- wrote:
Indeed, that's a singular quality of Warhams I noticed. Nowhere else have I seen such deep divisions within the player base. These are the only systems where players are classified into fluff gamers, tournament gamers, collectors, painters... For all the other games, you merely state that you're an X player and that's enough. Not so with Warhams. They're such complex games you need to further categorize gamers, because mixed matches will only result in grief and hurt feelings. Curious.

And the real irony is that most of that would go away if GW gave a gak about balance. All it would take is a core set of rules that are balanced, with everything else (also balanced) being optional extras. So yes, you might need to ask if you're using an option, but for pick-up games or tournaments you can just use the standard rules that are universal. The problem is that GW thinks of 40k one way and the players think of others but GW says that 40k can be used how you want, but it really can't without a lot of meta discussion. No other game does that, and to boot all supplements are balanced. Warmachine has a new book (Vengeance?) that updates some characters but you can use the new one against the old one, and they are both equal but provide different tactics, while GW instead puts out something like the IK and has the gall to claim in a White Dwarf article that it provides an "interesting tactical puzzle" and shakes up the meta, when it really doesn't.

Imagine if you had Warmachine's balance with GW's fluff/background/models.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Or maybe PP fans just love their game.
I think GW fans just don't know what it's like to play a game they actually like.

(I'm playing devil's advocate, I just think it's ignorant to label a whole fan base like that. I know plenty of PP fans that are great people.)

Maybe, but they definitely turned me away from starting Warmachine when I was looking for another game besides 40k (it was not the only reason, but it was an important one). In general, Warmachine players seem to be a different kind than most 40k or FoW players.
In any case, I ended up starting FoW instead and do not regret that decision at all.

 Grimtuff wrote:
How exactly is this different from the endless Space Marine vs. Space Marine games that 40k provides?

Well, you could at least rationalize it better, as long as there are no named characters or subfactions (i.e. here chapters) facing each other.

 -DE- wrote:
It's just the nature of wargames.

It is the nature of special characters. Without special characters, depending on the factions' fluff, everything can be explained logically. Especially orks vs orks .

 -DE- wrote:
Regarding the death of the Warcaster ending the game - a Warcaster is the army's commander and an inspiring figure. His loss is as much a deathblow to his men's morale as the loss of a general in real life, causing them to retreat.

What if the enemy warlock is himself/herself surrounded by your troops, with only 1hp left, and with no warbeast around ? Anyway, I was speaking of scenario wins, where it is all about one model being completely inside some perfect circle, or have some part of his base out of it, that can make a difference between direct, total victory and, say, your caster exploding in a burst of gore.

 -DE- wrote:
Besides, for all the talk of 40K proponents how the rules of the game are merely a suggestion, what prevents you from ignoring that part of Warmachine's rules?

Because I actually like the fact the game is balanced and everything. But it makes it different from 40k, with a different flavor that some might prefer and other find less attractive.

 -DE- wrote:
As for the fluff =/= game comment - have you ever read a Warmachine story? Because the fluff is very close to how the game is played.

To the point where the description of battles sometime become quite ridiculous, yes. But it is clearly the fluff description of battles being tailored after game mechanics than the other way around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
In general, Warmachine players seem to be a different kind than most 40k or FoW players.

Most Warmachine players I know also plays 40k, actually.

WayneTheGame wrote:

While I really like what I see from Warmachine beyond the fluff feels a bit weak; like the game mechanics feels like a game and not a story, which is good from a balance perspective but not from a "Why are we fighting" perspective... it feels very MMO/MOBA-ish where you play a "match" just because there's a match, and while there's a story about who your guys are, you aren't really there for any reason; in fact if I had to describe Warmachine it'd pretty much be a tabletop MOBA (I guess just MBA then?). Compare that to Warhammer where it's a lot easier to give a battle a story, even a simple one, even if not for the game itself then for your own records. Warmachine doesn't have that feeling it's almost like randomly Stryker encountered Sorcha out in the field somewhere ("A Wild Kommander Sorcha appeared!"), rather than like Stryker doing a raid on a Khador military facility to capture some plans, with an actual narrative reason behind it. As much as I despise GW's pushing the narrative as an excuse to ignore game balance, I like at least in my own mind thinking that a battle has some meaning in a larger conflict, not basically a random encounter.

Utter rubbish.

On so many levels.

Why can’t stryker raid a military facility to capture some plans? Why can’t Strakhov raid a Warjack repair facility? What’s stopping you? Your argument falls down the second you decide to create a story behind a game, and there is nothing stopping you doing that. And clearly, you’ve just not bothered. Not bothering to create a story behind your battles is not the same thing as saying “this game has no narrative”. PP have a huge amount of campaign ideas, mini-campaign ideas, historical scenarios, challenges, and other scenarios just waiting, all through their books and NQ magazine. Or screw them – do your own- the game can handle them. Even with the basic steamroller scenarios – think less “control that circle” and think more “stop the summoning ceremony”, or “hold the line long enough to let the sniper slip through unobserved”.

Warhammer is not more intrinsically more “narrative”. Its not somehow “easier” to create a story behind it. Otherwise, why is every second combat out there a “training exercise” between marine chapters? Or why is Creed, who commands the armies of an entire planet, bothering with a skirmish at the head of a platoon of grunts and a couple of tanks? Stryker randomly meets a wild Sorscha? Please . this can be just as easily turned on its head and made to apply to 40k as well. And I’ve played enough games of 40k where it was a case of “slap down your army and have at it”, without any story, without any narrative, without anything to feel engrossed, or that I was a part of something grander – 40k can just as easily be nothing more than “just a game”.

WayneTheGame wrote:
[
Honestly it isn't, but when it's a logical battle in 40k you can at least justify it yourself. I find the same thing very hard in Warmachine, but then again that's not what Warmachine tries to do, so I can't fault them for it. As a game, I think Warmachine is fairly amazing because it has actual balance and how you use a unit is more than what unit you use, but even with the fluff behind it I can't get past it being simply background material, similar to how each hero in say League of Legends has a backstory but it doesn't really matter, or how in MtG you're actually meant to be rival wizards dueling, but I don't know of anybody who actually cares about that.

I guess the best way I can explain it is that in 40k/WHFB, the background is supposed to be something you consider before, during and after the course of the game. In Warmachine, the background material is just that - it's in the background and has little or no bearing on the game you're playing.

We must be playing different games then! The reasonings behind the unending skirmishes between space marines, or tau get thin after a while. I don't see warmachines battles as any less logical. Circle, convergence and retribution all fight over the same leyline resources, for example. Then there are skirmishes over terrain features or important structures - bridges, railway junctions etc. and major battles to seize towns, villages etc. there are any number of ways the games battles are logical.

But if the background is something I'm supposed to think about during a game of 40k, why does it resemble it so little? A grot holding up a dreadnought? Sniping basilisks? My best trained marksmen only ever shooting the closest model, and not officers or heavy weapon carriers, and then the fluff. Riptides are rare? So why does every tau army have virtually more riptides than fire warriors?
P
Thing is, the background material of 40k is engaging. (Or was!) I find pp's background just as engaging. It might not be the galaxy spanning conflicts we are used to, but I can just as easily get behind a grudge match between Haley, and Denny. Or butcher and sorscha. I have any number of reasons fluff wise to have a go at reznik or kreoss (damned traitors to the motherland) . I genuinely enjoy the game, and find the fluff just as engaging. I don't see them as necessarily being separate.

I used to play Magic back when it was new, and some of the cards were VERY unclear. I stopped playing it and then started playing it again for a short stint around 2005. I was amazed at how much more clear and concise the rules were and how much better the game played.

I figured 40k, being a ruleset that has to deal with physical things, was necessarily more difficult and complex to create rules for, and figured that was a reasonable excuse for the lack of clarity and why we constantly had rules questions when playing.

However, the other day I was in my FLGS and picked up the Warmachine rules just for the hell of it, since it was only $30. I started reading the rules and was blown away by how much more crisp they seemed.

Now whenever I read the 40k rulebook, all I see is ambiguity and poor wording for twice the cost. I can't wait to try Warmachine, if I can find some people locally who play it.

Take that for what it's worth, I consider myself fairly objective.

Of business practices and vocality.

Being vocal and active in any endeavor is rare. Be that filling out a customer care card in a retail establishment, answering a mailed survey, contacting a company, or taking it to the internet. (even voting for an elected representative isn't as common as it should be)

However, when a person is moved to become vocal it is a best business practice to address the the issue at hand. Now, the information may be good and the company expands on the prior practices, it may be bad and the company makes changes to their practices to improve, or it may be bad and the company addresses the people, explaining the issue and why it must remain the way it is. Games Workshop doesn't seem to be doing any of that.

Then there is this information. Before you question my info, just Google "customer dissatisfaction".

The Average business doesn't hear from 96% of unhappy customers.
For every one complaint received, there are 24 people with unvoiced problems, six of which are serious.
>= 90% who are dissatisfied with the service they receive will not buy again or come back.
Of those who complain, 50% - 70% will do business again if complaint is resolved. 95% will return if resolved quickly.
Average customer with a complaint tells 9 to 10 people, 13% tell more than 20 people.
Those who have complained and had resolution tell five people.

Invest in your customers
Retaining your existing customers is a lot cheaper than acquiring new ones. Recognizing that the demands and expectations of customers have progressed in recent times and remaining committed to long term strategies geared at ensuring customer satisfaction is the only course of action for a successful organisation.

Depending upon the business, new customer sales may cost 4 to 100 times that of a sale to an existing customer.

These are common numbers and statistics known to the business world. I've been dealing with these numbers almost my entire adult life and I've never come across any anecdotal evidence to refute them much less any opposing view point.

The quality of the 40K has suffered of late and it is showing up in GW's ledger. According to GW's cash flow report for the last four quarters reported, it has operated at a loss. To the tune of 6 million GBp. Here's the link to their quarterly cash flow reports: https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q/cf?s=GAW.L

GW seems to be failing in a spectacular way. After looking over their stock history as a publicly traded company, they seem to have failed spectacularly twice before. Once in 2000 and once again around 2008.

Now, how does this pertain to 40K specifically? It all goes back to the customer base. You cannot take 40k as a separate business apart from GW as a whole.
They fail at customer contact.
They have begun to exploit the loyalty of their current customers.
That's where all the "hate" is coming from, no one likes to feel like a chump. This is also where the terms like "gouging" come into play. (Please don't argue the semantics of gouging, we all know that this isn't an essential good. Exploitative is a better term but in this case they can be considered synonymous.) It comes down to "Hey, why sell all the rules to play a game in one book?!?! We can break this book into 6 different books and sell them all at the same price as the original! These rubes will have to buy them all just to be able to have an enjoyable game. Brilliant!"

They have stated that their goal is to attract new customers.
Which evidences apathy, if not outright disdain, of existing customers. Combined with the fact that they don't advertise or seem to do anything to increase the customer base, which just leaves us with the apathy for existing customers.

They fail at quality control.
The rules are so Byzantine and convoluted that no two people can truly tell you what they are. That's what happens when you pass around the "rules writing stick" with no over arching editor.
Fail cast!

These loyal customers of GW and 40K in particular don't just have a right to complain, it is their duty to complain if they want to continue to transact business with the company in question. It is the duty of GW to respond if they wish to continue to transact business with these customers, and essentially stay in business to do so. After all, only 1 in 25 care enough to complain, the rest just stop doing business or decrease business with a company.

We like the concept of the game and wish for it to continue.
People like to remain loyal to a brand and feel betrayed when that brand exploits their loyalty. What you are seeing in these complaints are peoples attempts to remain loyal before giving up.
Edit: Grammar, nothing else.

Idolator, have a rare Exalt from me.

It sounds very much like we're singing from the same hymn sheet on this issue, my philosophy as an employed manager and later as a company director was that if your customers are happy, and your staff are happy, nearly everything else takes care of itself. Happy customers are inclined to spend more, happy staff are more inclined to feel like going the extra mile for the customer, which creates a positive feedback loop. Happy customers spending more money allows you to invest even more in your staff, making them more inclined to stick around and reward that investment, and,that's right, happier.

There's always the odd example where that system breaks down for some reason, but the fundamentals of getting things right are so straightforward, it always surprises me when a company gets it so wrong, especially a successful one with a well loved product.

 happygolucky wrote:
So I come back and the threads now changed from whats good about 40k to now somehow involing PP and WM/H..

Wow...

Alert the moderators that it has gone off topic.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
So I come back and the threads now changed from whats good about 40k to now somehow involing PP and WM/H..

Wow...

Alert the moderators that it has gone off topic.

It drifted, but it's back in line.

It started going off-topic about halfway down the first page when the usual GW hating, often former 40k players now playing Warmachine moved in to swamp the thread with their negativity, and gang up on anyone who disagrees with their view that GW is the Fourth Reich and anyone who still plays 40k is only pretending to have fun. It's pretty telling that all of these Warmachine players, despite having left 40k behind in favour of a much superior system, still find it necessary to post on 40k threads about what a terrible game it is.

Back OT - it's not all bad at all. I like;

Allies, flyers, Escalation, Imperial Knights, random tables, narrative games, 90% of the model releases by GW, pretty much everything by Forge World, titans, Black Library [especially audiobooks], all of the fluff, painting, looking at other people's painting, artwork [especially by Blanche] and all of the races except Tau.

No, it's not perfect, but it never has been. I'll leave my suggestions for how 40k could be improved [and I do have them] for more constructive threads.

This is why I dislike GW:

New codex comes out -> Everyone realises in 24 hours that this new codex has 1-3 spammable flyers/monstrous creatures and makes meta army lists -> 2 weeks later, a new model comes out that is in finecast -> GW sees this as a great opportunity to raise ALL prices by £3 -> Rinse and repeat

Although I agree, people should just stop playing if it is that bad

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
It started going off-topic about halfway down the first page when the usual GW hating, often former 40k players now playing Warmachine moved in to swamp the thread with their negativity, and gang up on anyone who disagrees with their view that GW is the Fourth Reich and anyone who still plays 40k is only pretending to have fun. It's pretty telling that all of these Warmachine players, despite having left 40k behind in favour of a much superior system, still find it necessary to post on 40k threads about what a terrible game it is. .

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
It started going off-topic about halfway down the first page when the usual GW hating, often former 40k players now playing Warmachine moved in to swamp the thread with their negativity, and gang up on anyone who disagrees with their view that GW is the Fourth Reich and anyone who still plays 40k is only pretending to have fun. It's pretty telling that all of these Warmachine players, despite having left 40k behind in favour of a much superior system, still find it necessary to post on 40k threads about what a terrible game it is.
.

Actually, us warmachine players are a minority here. 40k players are generally quite rational, and perfectly capable of describing a list of legitimate grievances all on their own, without any input from us. In fact, the only reason I'm posting is I found the notion that there is no story to warmachine games to be quite offensive and wrong in principle.

Bro, folks listing grievances is not necessarily 'hating'.

Gw aren't the fourth reich, and whilst I'm generally a little bit sympathetic to them in terms of them making it 'the game they want it to be', their implementation has disenfranchised, frustrated and angered a lot of people.

Are folks 'ganging up', or is it just more people have issues than not. It's not us versus them, and you don't need the siege mentality

Similarly, i dont think I read anyone saying those who play 40k are 'only pretending to have fun' - you're making stuff up, buddy. You can have fun, you can enjoy the time you spend with friends , but objectively can still discuss issues and problems alingsude this. You enjoy mostly everything? Well, great. Good fir you. But don't be surprised when others disagree and don't see everything as being sunshine and rainbows. You can't just white knight it all away.

I've got a strong suspicion that the insulation of the company from the public has lead to two kinds of 40k: the game played at Nottingham (where plasma is still king apparently), and the one played by everyone else.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
I'll leave my suggestions for how 40k could be improved [and I do have them] for more constructive threads.

You mean threads where you don't show up to make incorrect generalizations about people with different opinions and incredibly wrong statements repeatedly?

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
It started going off-topic about halfway down the first page when the usual GW hating, often former 40k players now playing Warmachine moved in to swamp the thread with their negativity, and gang up on anyone who disagrees with their view that GW is the Fourth Reich and anyone who still plays 40k is only pretending to have fun.

-There are actually very few negative comments on the first page and the only one that starts going off topic is AtoMaki while he responds to comments about how if GW went under then 40K could still be around, in which AtoMaki was actively responding to the OP.
-Just about all the "negative" or "hater comments" have revolved around the OP's intent. We have been discussing that our opinions aren't excessively negative. At least not as negative as some people who will say that if you aren't playing the game your way then they should leave or that it doesn't matter how many players are having issues with the game, because they are happy with it and changing it to try and make everyone happy somehow takes away their fun. Not going to point fingers or anything.

For me, insisting on rigid balance would limit the opportunity for 'fluffy' or narrative games, would narrow the scope of which models could be produced, and would turn it into another game entirely.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I've got a strong suspicion that the insulation of the company from the public has lead to two kinds of 40k: the game played at Nottingham (where plasma is still king apparently), and the one played by everyone else.

That's a nice way of saying "they got their head so far up their arse".

Davor wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I've got a strong suspicion that the insulation of the company from the public has lead to two kinds of 40k: the game played at Nottingham (where plasma is still king apparently), and the one played by everyone else.

That's a nice way of saying "they got their head so far up their arse".

The only part of GW I'm certain is playing ostrich using their own bums is the board of directors, I really think the dev team just don't know how different the game the community plays varies from theirs and why that's causing problems. And part of that is because of how insulated they are from the public for the most part.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The only part of GW I'm certain is playing ostrich using their own bums is the board of directors, I really think the dev team just don't know how different the game the community plays varies from theirs and why that's causing problems. And part of that is because of how insulated they are from the public for the most part.

I absolutely agree with this. I think the designers genuinely play the game in a very different way than most of us do; particularly those of us who are even remotely competitive, and meanwhile the upper management puts their fingers over their ears and goes "BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHRAISEPRICESTHATWILLFIXOURPROFITMARGINSBLAHBLAHBLAH."

To me it's like a bad relationship, and I just want the company to fold so we can all move on, be it to the next owner of the 40k IP or whatever becomes the most popular game. Breaking up will be hard to do, but it will be what's best in the end.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Davor wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I've got a strong suspicion that the insulation of the company from the public has lead to two kinds of 40k: the game played at Nottingham (where plasma is still king apparently), and the one played by everyone else.

That's a nice way of saying "they got their head so far up their arse".

The only part of GW I'm certain is playing ostrich using their own bums is the board of directors, I really think the dev team just don't know how different the game the community plays varies from theirs and why that's causing problems. And part of that is because of how insulated they are from the public for the most part.

Unless they lack an Internet connection, there is no excuse for being insulated from the community at large

 slowthar wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The only part of GW I'm certain is playing ostrich using their own bums is the board of directors, I really think the dev team just don't know how different the game the community plays varies from theirs and why that's causing problems. And part of that is because of how insulated they are from the public for the most part.

I absolutely agree with this. I think the designers genuinely play the game in a very different way than most of us do; particularly those of us who are even remotely competitive, and meanwhile the upper management puts their fingers over their ears and goes "BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHRAISEPRICESTHATWILLFIXOURPROFITMARGINSBLAHBLAHBLAH."

To me it's like a bad relationship, and I just want the company to fold so we can all move on, be it to the next owner of the 40k IP or whatever becomes the most popular game. Breaking up will be hard to do, but it will be what's best in the end.

I don't want GW to fold, I want it to stop snorting cocaine off the of the backs of women with track marks in their arms in dark alleys, living in it's mother's basement and dressing like a goth while complaining that we don't just don't understand because we're not deep enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Avinash_Tyagi wrote:
Unless they lack an Internet connection, there is no excuse for being insulated from the community at large

Just because someone has an internet connection doesn't mean they spend time on Dakka reading our grievances either. You work on 40k and WFB all day at work, go home and continue working on it and decide to take a break are you going to go watch cat videos on the internet (or generally amuse yourselves with something mindless and not related to your work), or go read a bunch of angry posts online about how everything you're doing sucks?

I'm willing to bet most people would go watch cat videos instead.

Well most companies would have the guts to run their own forums and take the good with the bad.

hobojebus wrote:
Well most companies would have the guts to run their own forums and take the good with the bad.

GW did that, and then later killed it. It was also a horrible, poorly moderated mess. But the powers that be decided axing it was the best method.

Maybe, and this is just wishful thinking, just MAYBE their new website will have a return of the forums. But that's likely a fantasy.

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Avinash_Tyagi wrote:
Unless they lack an Internet connection, there is no excuse for being insulated from the community at large

Just because someone has an internet connection doesn't mean they spend time on Dakka reading our grievances either. You work on 40k and WFB all day at work, go home and continue working on it and decide to take a break are you going to go watch cat videos on the internet (or generally amuse yourselves with something mindless and not related to your work), or go read a bunch of angry posts online about how everything you're doing sucks?

I'm willing to bet most people would go watch cat videos instead.

You know, most Multi-National companies with operating budgets in the millions actually have an entire department dedicated to this. Heck, a lot of local companies with operating budgets in the thousands have someone working on this. My FLGS has someone doing this! The local brewery down the road has someone doing this! The lady that sells honey from her bee hives at the farmers market has someone doing this! It's a smart business practice and an essential one in today's market place.

 Idolator wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Avinash_Tyagi wrote:
Unless they lack an Internet connection, there is no excuse for being insulated from the community at large

Just because someone has an internet connection doesn't mean they spend time on Dakka reading our grievances either. You work on 40k and WFB all day at work, go home and continue working on it and decide to take a break are you going to go watch cat videos on the internet (or generally amuse yourselves with something mindless and not related to your work), or go read a bunch of angry posts online about how everything you're doing sucks?

I'm willing to bet most people would go watch cat videos instead.

You know, most Multi-National companies with operating budgets in the millions actually have an entire department dedicated to this. Heck, a lot of local companies with operating budgets in the thousands have someone working on this. My FLGS has someone doing this! The local brewery down the road has someone doing this! The lady that sells honey from her bee hives at the farmers market has someone doing this! It's a smart business practice and an essential one in today's market place.

Oh I know they do, but tell that to GW's Board of Directors, or as I'd like to refer to them "The Idiots in Charge". They're the ones I don't trust to grow the company further and seem hellbent on keeping it in the past in a lot of things they do.

 Idolator wrote:
You know, most Multi-National companies with operating budgets in the millions actually have an entire department dedicated to this. Heck, a lot of local companies with operating budgets in the thousands have someone working on this. My FLGS has someone doing this! The local brewery down the road has someone doing this! The lady that sells honey from her bee hives at the farmers market has someone doing this! It's a smart business practice and an essential one in today's market place.

This, pretty much. Most companies have embraced the internet and social media and the like to promote business and get feedback to act on it. GW seems to have decided the internet is all a fad and all we need is print magazines and the GW Store for everything.

It's almost mind-boggling.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Well most companies would have the guts to run their own forums and take the good with the bad.

GW did that, and then later killed it. It was also a horrible, poorly moderated mess. But the powers that be decided axing it was the best method.

Maybe, and this is just wishful thinking, just MAYBE their new website will have a return of the forums. But that's likely a fantasy.

Oh good, because having everyone go there to complain and fill it full of hate is going to do well.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Well most companies would have the guts to run their own forums and take the good with the bad.

GW did that, and then later killed it. It was also a horrible, poorly moderated mess. But the powers that be decided axing it was the best method.

Maybe, and this is just wishful thinking, just MAYBE their new website will have a return of the forums. But that's likely a fantasy.

Oh good, because having everyone go there to complain and fill it full of hate is going to do well.

There are plenty of companies that do have such things and it does well. Even within the gaming community it works well.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Well most companies would have the guts to run their own forums and take the good with the bad.

GW did that, and then later killed it. It was also a horrible, poorly moderated mess. But the powers that be decided axing it was the best method.

Maybe, and this is just wishful thinking, just MAYBE their new website will have a return of the forums. But that's likely a fantasy.

Oh good, because having everyone go there to complain and fill it full of hate is going to do well.

I assume that there would likely be a lot of mass bannings for "trolling" and "spamming" aimed at the loud dissenting voices early on if we do get a forum again. Then things eventually settle down (more or less) and things get better from there.

And then the Idiots in Charge realize they're not making money off having a forum (at least not -directly-) and pull the plug ruining everything.

The company that is routinely rated one of the worst or THE WORST company in all of America (a bit biased because of the internet) is Electronic Arts.

http://consumerist.com/2013/04/09/ea-makes-worst-company-in-america-history-wins-title-for-second-year-in-a-row/

Even these foul devils have one of these:

http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/categories/list.page

If you are at all cross pollinated into the world of video games, you know how much a crap show the Battlefield 4 launch was for EA. Did they delete their forums to shut up their customers who paid just a mere $60 for a tens of millions of dollars, multi-year endeavor of a product:

https://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/forum/

They even made forums for each platforms specific issues. Now, I know every dude and their dog can host a forum, it's not that expensive. And I imagine operating at the GW level, even some team members to manage a Facebook account cannot be that taxing. But if a multi-million dollar video game that people may invest $60 - $120 over the lifetime of that product can get some damn day one tech support, why can't we get a FAQ for a $50 rulebook that's barely playtested and, if we're lucky, proofread?

Maybe Apples to Oranges style comparison, but I believe I'm about one more "premium product" post away from my eyeballs rolling out of my head from rolling so much.

Idolator, you got an exalt for that post. It's as I have been saying, the value of the product has been falling and coupled with your customer dissatisfaction post, there's a strong basis for why this is getting bad.

And some folks are like "It's always been a case of complainers and people leaving, it'll be fine!"

GW traditionally hasn't had strong competition, they do now. They have competition that offers a product with better gameplay value at a lower cost with direct customer support, even in the field representatives (Press Gangers and the variants for other skirmish games). I just don't get how pointing out this stuff makes "us" the bad guys? It's always the WAAC player's fault or TFG or someone who "just doesn't get it, the game is about fun!" I don't see how I am treated as a loyal customer that has invested thousands of my own dollars as good deal or "fun". Just me. And for the record, the models are supremely boss. I bit pricey, but I'm willing to pay it. The rules? Nope.

Alot of the models are great but when your paying £21 for five guardsmen that's taking the piss, that's £4 per model compared to £2 for space marines.

It's getting worse and worse not just for 40k, the latest dwarf release saw 10 models costing £30, to get an average sized unit costs you £60!

The kits that let you make multiple units are a pure price gouge, letting them charge more for less models.