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There is no "slot" only a role defined by the unit definition. The role is what is defined in the FOC section of the BRB.

In my example of the Tau Firebase, what is the role designation of the Broadside and does it score in the Guns Never Tire mission?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Look at it this way. It's the troops selection of the FOC not the army list that defines being a troop and hence scoring. See page 123.
To be a selection you have to be in the ascribed slot.

Does a formation contain troops selections or slots? If yes, then where and can you show which they are? Does it describe that the tervigon meets the requirements to be a troop choice in a formation? Or is this just another case of it doesn't say I can't?

Without referencing the army list section of a codex for the role, you cannot put a unit into an FOC selection. The FOC cannot be separated from the army list. If you think it can, then show how a tactical squad can be selected for an army without referring to its role on the army list.

Hint: it can't be because without referencing the role in the army list, you have no permission to slot it anywhere on the FOC.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Hint: it can't be because without referencing the role in the army list, you have no permission to slot it anywhere on the FOC.

How does referencing the Formation's Army List tell me to put that unit in the Troops section of the FOC? Because it's part of a Formation detachment which explicitly doesn't follow the normal FOC.

And how do you handle slot-shifting with this assertion? Paladins are listed as Elites in the Army List. So using your assertion they do not score.

rigeld2 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Hint: it can't be because without referencing the role in the army list, you have no permission to slot it anywhere on the FOC.

How does referencing the Formation's Army List tell me to put that unit in the Troops section of the FOC? Because it's part of a Formation detachment which explicitly doesn't follow the normal FOC.

And how do you handle slot-shifting with this assertion? Paladins are listed as Elites in the Army List. So using your assertion they do not score.

My assertion does cover paladins explicitly. Without referencing the army list section, you cannot determine that paladins are normally selected as Elites but CAN be selected as Troops under certain circumstances. Per the BRB, each unit must have a role. Show me how you can select a unit for any slot on the FOC without referencing the Codex entry in the army list section.

PanzerLeader wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Hint: it can't be because without referencing the role in the army list, you have no permission to slot it anywhere on the FOC.

How does referencing the Formation's Army List tell me to put that unit in the Troops section of the FOC? Because it's part of a Formation detachment which explicitly doesn't follow the normal FOC.

And how do you handle slot-shifting with this assertion? Paladins are listed as Elites in the Army List. So using your assertion they do not score.

My assertion does cover paladins explicitly. Without referencing the army list section, you cannot determine that paladins are normally selected as Elites but CAN be selected as Troops under certain circumstances. Per the BRB, each unit must have a role. Show me how you can select a unit for any slot on the FOC without referencing the Codex entry in the army list section.

And where are those circumstances found? In the Army List which you cannot reference.

 Happyjew wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Hint: it can't be because without referencing the role in the army list, you have no permission to slot it anywhere on the FOC.

How does referencing the Formation's Army List tell me to put that unit in the Troops section of the FOC? Because it's part of a Formation detachment which explicitly doesn't follow the normal FOC.

And how do you handle slot-shifting with this assertion? Paladins are listed as Elites in the Army List. So using your assertion they do not score.

My assertion does cover paladins explicitly. Without referencing the army list section, you cannot determine that paladins are normally selected as Elites but CAN be selected as Troops under certain circumstances. Per the BRB, each unit must have a role. Show me how you can select a unit for any slot on the FOC without referencing the Codex entry in the army list section.

And where are those circumstances found? In the Army List which you cannot reference.

Except every data slate tells you to reference the army list and/or reprints the entry in the data slate so it can be referenced per the screenshot earlier.

PanzerLeader wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
Hint: it can't be because without referencing the role in the army list, you have no permission to slot it anywhere on the FOC.

How does referencing the Formation's Army List tell me to put that unit in the Troops section of the FOC? Because it's part of a Formation detachment which explicitly doesn't follow the normal FOC.

And how do you handle slot-shifting with this assertion? Paladins are listed as Elites in the Army List. So using your assertion they do not score.

My assertion does cover paladins explicitly. Without referencing the army list section, you cannot determine that paladins are normally selected as Elites but CAN be selected as Troops under certain circumstances. Per the BRB, each unit must have a role. Show me how you can select a unit for any slot on the FOC without referencing the Codex entry in the army list section.

You can't.
Show slots inside the Formation detachment. You continue to assert they're there but have yet to prove that assertion.

 thejughead wrote:
There is no "slot" only a role defined by the unit definition. The role is what is defined in the FOC section of the BRB.

In my example of the Tau Firebase, what is the role designation of the Broadside and does it score in the Guns Never Tire mission?

The role of the broadside could be to soak fire or for a nicely painted gun platform. It doesn't matter. If you aren't in a HS slot then you don't score in big guns.

Slot is defined by the foc and it's what a unit takes up on the foc. If it's not a troops slot then you don't score. I'd love some substantive answer to why you think these units are in a specific slot other than "because".

BTW is it a roll or battlefield roll now? Is it the handwavy non definition of the brb or the undefined nonsense of the dataslate?

"There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit:
- If it is a vehicle, or is a unit currently embarked on a Transport vehicle, or is occupying a building.
- If it has the Swarms special rule.
- If it has a special rule specifying that it never counts as a
scoring unit.
- If it is currently falling back (if the unit Regroups it immediately reverts to being a scoring unit again)."

These are the only times a Troops choice isn't a scoring unit according to the BRB.

Liturgies,

Please cite where slot is defined in the BRB.

-theJughead


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the broadside is defined as a Heavy and part of the formation which is part of the FOC. I've cited numerous times where this is referenced in the Dataslate ad nauseum.

Troops are scoring.

The dataslates have headers for 'Troops' (and others, elites, hq etc).

Why would they reiterate in each dataslate that troops are troops? Because they're troops.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit:
- If it is a vehicle, or is a unit currently embarked on a Transport vehicle, or is occupying a building.
- If it has the Swarms special rule.
- If it has a special rule specifying that it never counts as a
scoring unit.
- If it is currently falling back (if the unit Regroups it immediately reverts to being a scoring unit again)."

These are the only times a Troops choice isn't a scoring unit according to the BRB.

You still haven't supported the statement that a unit from a dataslate is a Troop selection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thejughead wrote:
Liturgies,

Please cite where slot is defined in the BRB.

Slot == selection. Page 109 defines selections. Perhaps you'd care to read the rulebook.

And the broadside is defined as a Heavy and part of the formation which is part of the FOC. I've cited numerous times where this is referenced in the Dataslate ad nauseum.

Partially true.
The formation is part of the FOC. There are no Heavy selections in the formation, however.

rigeld2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit:
- If it is a vehicle, or is a unit currently embarked on a Transport vehicle, or is occupying a building.
- If it has the Swarms special rule.
- If it has a special rule specifying that it never counts as a
scoring unit.
- If it is currently falling back (if the unit Regroups it immediately reverts to being a scoring unit again)."

These are the only times a Troops choice isn't a scoring unit according to the BRB.

You still haven't supported the statement that a unit from a dataslate is a Troop selection.

From the Tyranid Vanguard dataslate:

 Nilok wrote:

Slot == selection. Page 109 defines selections. Perhaps you'd care to read the rulebook.

At this point it's obvious you prefer to ridicule and talk down to people instead of promoting a healthy exchange of ideas. Class act.

TBH jughead, I've been using common parlance for the little boxes on the FOC that denote where you put the units. If you prefer I use the word selection that's fine I will do so.

Can you please back up the assertion that units from the troops category in the army list are always scoring?

I am well aware there is a non-exhaustive list of reasons why a troops selection on the FOC would not be scoring. What I'm asking is where does the unit get to be in a troops selection and not a formation selection? You are not selecting a unit to fulfil a role you are selecting a list of units to be a formation. It's the difference between a multipack and a single can.

thejughead wrote:

Slot == selection. Page 109 defines selections. Perhaps you'd care to read the rulebook.

At this point it's obvious you prefer to ridicule and talk down to people instead of promoting a healthy exchange of ideas. Class act.

You're reading more into my inflection than is actually there. I said that because you cited pages 108 and 109 multiple times, and then asked for something that's plainly defined on page 109. To me, that implies you haven't actually read the rulebook.

PrinceRaven wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit:
- If it is a vehicle, or is a unit currently embarked on a Transport vehicle, or is occupying a building.
- If it has the Swarms special rule.
- If it has a special rule specifying that it never counts as a
scoring unit.
- If it is currently falling back (if the unit Regroups it immediately reverts to being a scoring unit again)."

These are the only times a Troops choice isn't a scoring unit according to the BRB.

You still haven't supported the statement that a unit from a dataslate is a Troop selection.

From the Tyranid Vanguard dataslate:

 Nilok wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/2014/1/25/cb7ff5022a5ed60aae85133d28973eb6_24153.jpg__thumb]

That doesn't do what you think it does.

One box on the chart allows you to make one selection from that part of your army list in the relevant codex.

Please, as I've asked for before, show the FOC for a dataslate. Show me multiple boxes that allow you to make a Troop selection rather than a Formation selection.

So you're saying that being a Troops choice doesn't make you a Troops choice? Literally having big capital letter saying TROOPS isn't enough?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So you're saying that being a Troops choice doesn't make you a Troops choice? Literally having big capital letter saying TROOPS isn't enough?

That is what it comes down to, despite the qualifier "normally" on p122, which of course doesn't cover formations, and despite the qualifier that Troops need a special rule in order not to score (''a special rule... specifiying it never counts as a scoring unit/") .Really the only argument for disallowing is that you get to choose which troops you take from a main codex, and the choice is normally dictated for a Formation. But that paper-thin argument is denied by the Dataslate intro which mentioned levels of alliance, which echoes the qualification that scoring troops cannot be Desperate Allies.

Funny, though, how the denial that units are scoring involves being incredibly rigorous about the FOC (despite the "normally" qualifier) and yet slack about other key sentences, hence the insistence that Large Type headings like TROOPS, or other worlds like "battlefield role", are merely decorative. What is a battlefield role for Troops, but to do the normal troop things - ie to control objectives?

(But then this argument was made, and has never been refuted, on p1. )

rigeld2 wrote:

An Endless Swarm Termagant brood is a Troops choice, therefore it is scoring.

It's a unit in a dataslate and exists outside the FOC. Hence it cannot be a Troops choice.
.

Worth repeating to show the logic we are faced with. That the medium is the message: cos it's a dataslate, let's ignore it. Which would be fine if you're oganising your own tournament, of course.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So you're saying that being a Troops choice doesn't make you a Troops choice? Literally having big capital letter saying TROOPS isn't enough?

That is what it comes down to, despite the qualifier "normally" on p122, which of course doesn't cover formations, and despite the qualifier that Troops need a special rule in order not to score (''a special rule... specifiying it never counts as a scoring unit/") .Really the only argument for disallowing is that you get to choose which troops you take from a main codex, and the choice is normally dictated for a Formation. But that paper-thin argument is denied by the Dataslate intro which mentioned levels of alliance, which echoes the qualification that scoring troops cannot be Desperate Allies.

No, not at all. I've explained my position multiple times and have apparently been ignored.
Despite the fact that the *ARMY LIST* section of the Dataslate shows Troops, the units are absolutely *NOT* taken as a Troop *selection*, which is what's required to score.

An army's scoring units are normally all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart

(emphasis mine)
Please, show me where units from a Formation are Troop, etc. *selections*. I've asked multiple times and been ignored.
I've shown that a single unit fills a selection on the FOC. I've asked for, and never received, anything showing a Formation FOC that has Troops selections.

Funny, though, how the denial that units are scoring involves being incredibly rigorous about the FOC (despite the "normally" qualifier) and yet slack about other key sentences, hence the insistence that Large Type headings like TROOPS, or other worlds like "battlefield role", are merely decorative. What is a battlefield role for Troops, but to do the normal troop things - ie to control objectives?

(But then this argument was made, and has never been refuted, on p1. )

I'd accuse you of failing to read the thread, but I know you have. I refuted that argument multiple times. I've never - ever - said that those words are "merely decorative". I'd like you to not put words in my mouth.

rigeld2 wrote:

An Endless Swarm Termagant brood is a Troops choice, therefore it is scoring.

It's a unit in a dataslate and exists outside the FOC. Hence it cannot be a Troops choice.
.

Worth repeating to show the logic we are faced with. That the medium is the message: cos it's a dataslate, let's ignore it. Which would be fine if you're oganising your own tournament, of course.

I misworded that and have fixed my wording since then. Perhaps you'd like to stay current with the thread and attempt to refute arguments instead of accusing me of arguing dishonestly?
That'd be great. Thanks.

It's a unit in a dataslate and exists outside the FOC. Hence it cannot be a Troops choice.

This is a false statement. The dataslate clearly says its a special detachment. Detachments can only exist within the FOC per the big rule book page 108-109. You continue to promote the idea that the FOC is only Primary, Allied and Fortification detachments.

 thejughead wrote:

It's a unit in a dataslate and exists outside the FOC. Hence it cannot be a Troops choice.

This is a false statement. The dataslate clearly says its a special detachment. Detachments can only exist within the FOC per the big rule book page 108-109. You continue to promote the idea that the FOC is only Primary, Allied and Fortification detachments.

That's a lie. It was a quote taken from page 1 that I've corrected myself.
I don't "continue" to promote that at all. I said it once.

Heck - I even corrected the person who put that quote in 6 minutes before you posted.

Please, show me where units from a Formation are Troop, etc. *selections*. I've asked multiple times and been ignored.
I've shown that a single unit fills a selection on the FOC. I've asked for, and never received, anything showing a Formation FOC that has Troops selections.

You keep referring to the FOC as the actual selection. This is incorrect. The detachment has the selection. The FOC is a collection of all the detachments.

It looks like this:

FOC
-----Primary
------------HQ
------------ELITES, etc.
-----Allied
------------HQ
------------ELITES, etc.
-----Fortifications
------------Fortification
-----Special Allies
------------HQ
------------ELITES, etc.
-----Formations
------------HQ
------------ELITES, etc.

Edit: I apologize the editor hacked my outline above.

 thejughead wrote:

Please, show me where units from a Formation are Troop, etc. *selections*. I've asked multiple times and been ignored.
I've shown that a single unit fills a selection on the FOC. I've asked for, and never received, anything showing a Formation FOC that has Troops selections.

You keep referring to the FOC as the actual selection. This is incorrect. The detachment has the selection. The FOC is a collection of all the detachments.

No, if you're looking at the chart on page 108, the boxes are selections. That's what I'm saying.
Please, show me a FOC (that's the chart) that includes more than a single box for Formations. Show me the FOC for Formations. The actual chart. I've asked for it - repeatedly.
I've never been shown one.

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

Please, show me where units from a Formation are Troop, etc. *selections*. I've asked multiple times and been ignored.
I've shown that a single unit fills a selection on the FOC. I've asked for, and never received, anything showing a Formation FOC that has Troops selections.

You keep referring to the FOC as the actual selection. This is incorrect. The detachment has the selection. The FOC is a collection of all the detachments.

No, if you're looking at the chart on page 108, the boxes are selections. That's what I'm saying.
Please, show me a FOC (that's the chart) that includes more than a single box for Formations. Show me the FOC for Formations. The actual chart. I've asked for it - repeatedly.
I've never been shown one.

We've reached an impasse. Rigeld will never be convinced until someone at GW makes a little line and block chart for every formation. The argument essentially comes down to those who think the specified composition in list format for each formation is the equivalent of an FOC because it outlines the compulsory and optional selections for each formation (Jughead, myself, hivefleet, etc.) and those who don't (liturgies, rigeld). No one is going to budge so lets just call it.

PanzerLeader wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

Please, show me where units from a Formation are Troop, etc. *selections*. I've asked multiple times and been ignored.
I've shown that a single unit fills a selection on the FOC. I've asked for, and never received, anything showing a Formation FOC that has Troops selections.

You keep referring to the FOC as the actual selection. This is incorrect. The detachment has the selection. The FOC is a collection of all the detachments.

No, if you're looking at the chart on page 108, the boxes are selections. That's what I'm saying.
Please, show me a FOC (that's the chart) that includes more than a single box for Formations. Show me the FOC for Formations. The actual chart. I've asked for it - repeatedly.
I've never been shown one.

We've reached an impasse. Rigeld will never be convinced until someone at GW makes a little line and block chart for every formation. The argument essentially comes down to those who think the specified composition in list format for each formation is the equivalent of an FOC because it outlines the compulsory and optional selections for each formation (Jughead, myself, hivefleet, etc.) and those who don't (liturgies, rigeld). No one is going to budge so lets just call it.

Yes, one side has quoted rules showing that selections matter and the other side is making assumptions and guessing at RAI.
Since the latter keeps claiming it's RAW despite being unable to show a rule allowing it...

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

Please, show me where units from a Formation are Troop, etc. *selections*. I've asked multiple times and been ignored.
I've shown that a single unit fills a selection on the FOC. I've asked for, and never received, anything showing a Formation FOC that has Troops selections.

You keep referring to the FOC as the actual selection. This is incorrect. The detachment has the selection. The FOC is a collection of all the detachments.

No, if you're looking at the chart on page 108, the boxes are selections. That's what I'm saying.
Please, show me a FOC (that's the chart) that includes more than a single box for Formations. Show me the FOC for Formations. The actual chart. I've asked for it - repeatedly.
I've never been shown one.

There is no Chart. The formation is preset. It tells you what you must bring to comply. If you have the Imperial Knight codex then you will notice that it to has a chart, but it is disregarded when making a IK Primary Detachment. There is no way for you to fill the HQ or TROOPS selection. The Knight has no Role and cannot be part of the selection.

PanzerLeader, you are correct. We should close it.

 thejughead wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

Please, show me where units from a Formation are Troop, etc. *selections*. I've asked multiple times and been ignored.
I've shown that a single unit fills a selection on the FOC. I've asked for, and never received, anything showing a Formation FOC that has Troops selections.

You keep referring to the FOC as the actual selection. This is incorrect. The detachment has the selection. The FOC is a collection of all the detachments.

No, if you're looking at the chart on page 108, the boxes are selections. That's what I'm saying.
Please, show me a FOC (that's the chart) that includes more than a single box for Formations. Show me the FOC for Formations. The actual chart. I've asked for it - repeatedly.
I've never been shown one.

There is no Chart. The formation is preset. It tells you what you must bring to comply. If you have the Imperial Knight codex then you will notice that it to has a chart, but it is disregarded when making a IK Primary Detachment. There is no way for you to fill the HQ or TROOPS selection. The Knight has no Role and cannot be part of the selection.

It's almost like Knights have an exception... that's specified in the rules... or something like that.
Bringing them up is a red herring.

The formation is preset and therefore there are no selections. No selections, no scoring. You know, exactly what I've been saying.

"The army list entries for each unit in the Formation (the units’ profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special rules, battlefield role etc.) can either be found in the codex corresponding to the Faction on the datasheet, or elsewhere in the dataslate itself."

Genestealers, Warriors, Termagants, Hormagaunts and Tervigons taken as Troops selections via The Scuttling Swarm are all definitely Troops selections in Faction Codex, therefore they are Troops selections in their Formations.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"The army list entries for each unit in the Formation (the units’ profiles, points values, unit types, unit composition, special rules, battlefield role etc.) can either be found in the codex corresponding to the Faction on the datasheet, or elsewhere in the dataslate itself."

Genestealers, Warriors, Termagants, Hormagaunts and Tervigons taken as Troops choices via The Scuttling Swarm are all definitely Troops choices in Faction Codex, therefore they are Troops choices in their Formations.

False. On the FOC they do not take up a Troop selection, which (as I've quoted multiple times) is what's required to score.
It literally uses those words - "troop selection of the Force Organization chart". If you cannot prove that a Formation uses the troop selection of the FOC, you cannot prove that Formation units score.
Since you've failed to prove that a Formation uses the troop selection of the FOC, you've failed to prove that Formation units score.

The formation is preset and therefore there are no selections. No selections, no scoring. You know, exactly what I've been saying.

By what judgment do you draw that conclusion? That is completely false in my view.

It's almost like Knights have an exception... that's specified in the rules... or something like that.
Bringing them up is a red herring.

It is relevant. We are talking about Army composition.


It doesn't matter. Our group will continue with our interpretation and I know the major tournaments will have the POV that they are scoring and that Troop does equate to Troop. In the end thats all that matters.