Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

And its not like every CSM is from the heresy, either, shouldn't be that many running around.

Veteran of The Long War wrote:
You do realize that most Chaos Space Marines have lived in the Eye of Terror where every day is a battle for survival right? And how they consistently fight against there battle-brothers day after day? And even if the Great Crusade training was inferior, that was long ago and they have had 10000 years of combat experience.

Except time flows differently in the Warp, so it isn't really 10,000 years, and most of the traitors from the Heresy are dead.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Veteran of The Long War wrote:
You do realize that most Chaos Space Marines have lived in the Eye of Terror where every day is a battle for survival right? And how they consistently fight against there battle-brothers day after day? And even if the Great Crusade training was inferior, that was long ago and they have had 10000 years of combat experience.

Except time flows differently in the Warp, so it isn't really 10,000 years, and most of the traitors from the Heresy are dead.

As said, the warp makes no sense. Most would be more along the age of 100s of years as a standard marine would. Time flows oddly and for some it would seem like only 50 years whilst others would feel as though 1111 years had passed by. In short, the warp makes no sense.

 Bobthehero wrote:
And its not like every CSM is from the heresy, either, shouldn't be that many running around.

Well yea, most are chaos lords and champions and thats about it but most are indeed veterans of the long war who can be anywhere between 200 to 9,999 years old

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Veteran of The Long War wrote:
You do realize that most Chaos Space Marines have lived in the Eye of Terror where every day is a battle for survival right? And how they consistently fight against there battle-brothers day after day? And even if the Great Crusade training was inferior, that was long ago and they have had 10000 years of combat experience.

Except time flows differently in the Warp, so it isn't really 10,000 years, and most of the traitors from the Heresy are dead.

Your right, time does flow differently in the warp but that works both ways. For example; you could have 1 Chaos Marine for whom the flight from Terra was seconds ago but you could also have some who have lived millions of years in there minds. And while many of the original traitors did die they are still a majority. For example; In Storm of Iron one of the youngest marines there in the warband, Honsou is considered a youngster at only 6000 years old.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Except time flows differently in the Warp, so it isn't really 10,000 years, and most of the traitors from the Heresy are dead.

Source. Like, please? This argument gets bandied about and there is literally nothing to support it.

Where did you find casualty figures for the heresy and since? Where have you sourced this unique OOB? Why, if it's not 10K years, is it <10K years, why not >10K???

Please, reveal your secrets.

A 100 year old Heresy veteran is as likely as a 100000 year old one.

I can't believe I read somebody saying a hotshot lasgun can punch through SM armor. The tabletop game =\= canon.

No, but it has been stated and shown in canon. That's what hellguns (and hot shot charge packs) do, pierce armour.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
No, but it has been stated and shown in canon. That's what hellguns (and hot shot charge packs) do, pierce armour.

Hot shot charge packs make it easier to pierce armour, keyword being easier. Its not just "pow pow pow" and it kills a SM. Its just easier but it still requires concentrated volleys of fire added with some skill (which is why ST's and high ranking IG are allowed to possess these weapons) to fell SM's. PA has built its sturdy reputation for a reason.

Read the Night Lords novels Soul Hunter through Void Stalker if you want to see CSMs teased out more feasibly.

This explains the passage of time living both in the Eye, as well as in the warp itself where they spend a lot of time.

The Night Lords in that series (which is pretty canonical and predates the HH books) are all veterans who typically best their loyalist counterparts in most engagements. They refer to current generation loyalist as "weakbloods" who are too far removed from their Primarchs and first foundings to truly stand toe-to-toe with a real legionary.

They only get beaten back because they are usually outnumbered, being all Heresy Era renegades, they haven't recruited since the destruction of Nostromo and don't relish the idea of increasing their ranks with non-Nostromans.

A real CSM Codex would actually have more individual veteran stat characters who break off into other units (think Wolf Guard style), but you'd actually have groups of them together, all with better stats, special rules and abilities, equipment etc.

The current CSM book just doesn't stack up to the fluff at all IMO short of some special characters.

The new Scion codex mentions the Hellgun being able to punch through Ceramite, therefore it can punch through PA.

As Bob said. Though, a Space Marine's remarkable toughness means he can weather a hot shot lasguns bite. Until he gets hit by several at least. The Hotshots are very well suited for killing power armored humans/PA equivalent xenos though.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
No, but it has been stated and shown in canon. That's what hellguns (and hot shot charge packs) do, pierce armour.

Hot shot charge packs make it easier to pierce armour, keyword being easier. Its not just "pow pow pow" and it kills a SM. Its just easier but it still requires concentrated volleys of fire added with some skill (which is why ST's and high ranking IG are allowed to possess these weapons) to fell SM's. PA has built its sturdy reputation for a reason.

I never said it would kill a SM, just that it would penetrate PA.

 mattyrm wrote:
I have a more pragmatic explanation that I have always thought to be true.

Evil men are weaker, because ultimately all of their desires boil down to selfishness. They look out for number one, and they are constantly in-fighting.

Both of those things would weaken them. All of the loyalists, especially the very noble ones like the Salamanders or the Ultramarines would fight and die for their brothers, they will put themselves in harms way for them. This breeds trust and strength, like the interlocking shields of a Roman column, trust builds strength of the kind that weak devious men can never know.

A Salamander would gladly sacrifice himself to save his brothers, perhaps buying them time to escape with a desperate rearguard action. Not so the treacherous warriors of chaos. They would always inevitably look for a way to save their own skin when it really came to the crunch.

Plus they seem to spend all day plotting and killing each other in the books... is it any wonder they have less time for training and such as their loyalists counterparts?!

I wouldn't even be able to sleep sharing a billet with my mates in the Iron Warriors, let alone go for a jog and a few hours sparring with one!

This exactly.
But I'll add a bit more. Soldiers vs warriors. Warriors (such as Chaos Marines) fight as individuals. On the field they fight for themselves, unit cohesion is not very strong and group tactics are vague at best. They tend to fight on their own and go for glory or to save themselves. A great example of a warrior is the Samurai. On the battlefield they would call out personal challenges and fight for their clan or personal honor.
A good example of a soldier is the Roman legionnaire. One on one the samurai would slaughter the legionnaire. However, on the battlefield the romans fought as a single unit. Each soldier had his place and duty and they worked together as one. For centuries they were able to defeat massively larger forces due to their training, discipline and unit tactics. It wasn't until barbarian ways of fighting entered the legion that they began to deteriorate.
Chaos marines should be tougher and more deadly than any individual loyalist. However, the loyalists fighting together in highly trained units should be able to defeat larger forces of traitors.
For further reading I'd suggest "Carnage and Culture" by Victor David Hanson. He goes into great detail with many examples of how and why this happens.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
I have a more pragmatic explanation that I have always thought to be true.

Evil men are weaker, because ultimately all of their desires boil down to selfishness. They look out for number one, and they are constantly in-fighting.

Both of those things would weaken them. All of the loyalists, especially the very noble ones like the Salamanders or the Ultramarines would fight and die for their brothers, they will put themselves in harms way for them. This breeds trust and strength, like the interlocking shields of a Roman column, trust builds strength of the kind that weak devious men can never know.

A Salamander would gladly sacrifice himself to save his brothers, perhaps buying them time to escape with a desperate rearguard action. Not so the treacherous warriors of chaos. They would always inevitably look for a way to save their own skin when it really came to the crunch.

Plus they seem to spend all day plotting and killing each other in the books... is it any wonder they have less time for training and such as their loyalists counterparts?!

I wouldn't even be able to sleep sharing a billet with my mates in the Iron Warriors, let alone go for a jog and a few hours sparring with one!

This exactly.
But I'll add a bit more. Soldiers vs warriors. Warriors (such as Chaos Marines) fight as individuals. On the field they fight for themselves, unit cohesion is not very strong and group tactics are vague at best. They tend to fight on their own and go for glory or to save themselves. A great example of a warrior is the Samurai. On the battlefield they would call out personal challenges and fight for their clan or personal honor.
A good example of a soldier is the Roman legionnaire. One on one the samurai would slaughter the legionnaire. However, on the battlefield the romans fought as a single unit. Each soldier had his place and duty and they worked together as one. For centuries they were able to defeat massively larger forces due to their training, discipline and unit tactics. It wasn't until barbarian ways of fighting entered the legion that they began to deteriorate.
Chaos marines should be tougher and more deadly than any individual loyalist. However, the loyalists fighting together in highly trained units should be able to defeat larger forces of traitors.
For further reading I'd suggest "Carnage and Culture" by Victor David Hanson. He goes into great detail with many examples of how and why this happens.

I have never done this before but...

/thread

Have an exalt too.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
I have a more pragmatic explanation that I have always thought to be true.

Evil men are weaker, because ultimately all of their desires boil down to selfishness. They look out for number one, and they are constantly in-fighting.

Both of those things would weaken them. All of the loyalists, especially the very noble ones like the Salamanders or the Ultramarines would fight and die for their brothers, they will put themselves in harms way for them. This breeds trust and strength, like the interlocking shields of a Roman column, trust builds strength of the kind that weak devious men can never know.

A Salamander would gladly sacrifice himself to save his brothers, perhaps buying them time to escape with a desperate rearguard action. Not so the treacherous warriors of chaos. They would always inevitably look for a way to save their own skin when it really came to the crunch.

Plus they seem to spend all day plotting and killing each other in the books... is it any wonder they have less time for training and such as their loyalists counterparts?!

I wouldn't even be able to sleep sharing a billet with my mates in the Iron Warriors, let alone go for a jog and a few hours sparring with one!

This exactly.
But I'll add a bit more. Soldiers vs warriors. Warriors (such as Chaos Marines) fight as individuals. On the field they fight for themselves, unit cohesion is not very strong and group tactics are vague at best. They tend to fight on their own and go for glory or to save themselves. A great example of a warrior is the Samurai. On the battlefield they would call out personal challenges and fight for their clan or personal honor.
A good example of a soldier is the Roman legionnaire. One on one the samurai would slaughter the legionnaire. However, on the battlefield the romans fought as a single unit. Each soldier had his place and duty and they worked together as one. For centuries they were able to defeat massively larger forces due to their training, discipline and unit tactics. It wasn't until barbarian ways of fighting entered the legion that they began to deteriorate.
Chaos marines should be tougher and more deadly than any individual loyalist. However, the loyalists fighting together in highly trained units should be able to defeat larger forces of traitors.
For further reading I'd suggest "Carnage and Culture" by Victor David Hanson. He goes into great detail with many examples of how and why this happens.

I have never done this before but...

/thread

Have an exalt too.

I'd agree with this except the fact that it never ends up working this way. It really comes down to one thing. Who is the main character? That dramatically influences who wins. Thing is, SM are the poster boys and are part of the Imperium (which more often than not is regarded as the protagonist of the story). And then you have bolter guns popping CSM into nothing in seconds in many a book and then books where CSM suddenly, mystically, get powers. It's fiction with the might of plot armor. This is the world where a recruit can slay a DP with a knife, some random GK dunks a daemon primarch and does stupid silly things.

I mean, I'd normally agree with you but at the same time it usually seems like they try to equal the two factions a bit in concept at least. The game itself basically makes it almost this way since 10 CSM costs the same as 10 SM but can also grow more disorganized with additional units to be even 20 boots strong. That and there are many a faction that wouldn't be so up or glory in challenge (Thousand Sons are a prime example of a faction that wouldn't want to challenge too much and, at least within their units, would be heavily unified. Other factions will come and go)

As for one last detail, I can't help but feel this same argument goes out to SW which are arguably more warriorlike than anything else. That said, fun read.

Space Wolves actually have a very good sense of camaraderie and espirit de corps. This makes them a very cohesive fighting force for these reasons alone. They just like boasting is all.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Space Wolves actually have a very good sense of camaraderie and espirit de corps. This makes them a very cohesive fighting force for these reasons alone. They just like boasting is all.

To be honest SW are basically everything under the fun. Drunkards, expert combatants, Vikings, warriors, mobilized fighting force, passionate, willing to kill things in a short cited manner, given high leadership for their skills and planning. I still can't tell how I should react to them sometimes.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Space Wolves actually have a very good sense of camaraderie and espirit de corps. This makes them a very cohesive fighting force for these reasons alone. They just like boasting is all.

To be honest SW are basically everything under the fun. Drunkards, expert combatants, Vikings, warriors, mobilized fighting force, passionate, willing to kill things in a short cited manner, given high leadership for their skills and planning. I still can't tell how I should react to them sometimes.

Scream a: Heresy!
b: Mary Sue!
c: Imperial scum..







Secret option d: All of the above

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Space Wolves actually have a very good sense of camaraderie and espirit de corps. This makes them a very cohesive fighting force for these reasons alone. They just like boasting is all.

To be honest SW are basically everything under the fun. Drunkards, expert combatants, Vikings, warriors, mobilized fighting force, passionate, willing to kill things in a short cited manner, given high leadership for their skills and planning. I still can't tell how I should react to them sometimes.

Scream a: Heresy!
b: Mary Sue!
c: Imperial scum..







Secret option d: All of the above

Hmmmmm.... tough one. I pick e. Drink to Russ!

I posted this in a diff. thread about a month ago...

Quoted from the 3.5 Chaos Space Marine codex
"Why collect a Chaos Space Marine Army?
There is something darkly fascinating about villains. Not the run-of-the-mill petty villains, but the big villains, the ones that plot universal domination and have the ability to see it through. These villains are just as resourceful, just as determined and just as capable as any hero but they also have faults and weaknesses that make them far more interesting. This is, I believe, the attraction of the Chaos Space Marines."

So there. We are the bad guys. They are the good guys. Its supposed to be a bad day when Chaos wins.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Except time flows differently in the Warp, so it isn't really 10,000 years, and most of the traitors from the Heresy are dead.

Source. Like, please? This argument gets bandied about and there is literally nothing to support it.

Where did you find casualty figures for the heresy and since? Where have you sourced this unique OOB? Why, if it's not 10K years, is it <10K years, why not >10K???

Please, reveal your secrets.

He actively hates on CSM and is a major SM fanboy, he does this often.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The new Scion codex mentions the Hellgun being able to punch through Ceramite, therefore it can punch through PA.

Oh, really? That's odd. I guess CSM's do got a larger problem then I thought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
No, but it has been stated and shown in canon. That's what hellguns (and hot shot charge packs) do, pierce armour.

Hot shot charge packs make it easier to pierce armour, keyword being easier. Its not just "pow pow pow" and it kills a SM. Its just easier but it still requires concentrated volleys of fire added with some skill (which is why ST's and high ranking IG are allowed to possess these weapons) to fell SM's. PA has built its sturdy reputation for a reason.

I never said it would kill a SM, just that it would penetrate PA.

Apparently you're correct then, as I checked with my IG buddy at the gaming store. It appears helllguns are a bigger problem then I thought. No matter, I got my bolter you mangy mortals

The Hotshot Volley Gun is also said to be the perfect tool to kill renegade Marines.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The Hotshot Volley Gun is also said to be the perfect tool to kill renegade Marines.

I would assume for loyalists the lasers would bounce harmlessly off their plot armor.

*nods*

Also good at killing armored xenos, totally useless agaisnt Chaos Cultists, lightly armored xenos and Guardsmen of any sort.

Plot armour confers a 2+ invul. Check it out in the war gear section.

It also has to do with paying for the sins of 3.5, those were the glory days of chaos where you actually saw the other legions on the table.

Plot armour confers a re-rollabe 2+ invulnerable save with re-rollable 2+ feel no pain....