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Iron_Captain wrote: And why do these kinds of things only seem tohappen in USA?
Remember that time that Russia gassed that theater and killed half the hostages they were "rescuing"? Or maybe I was thinking of that school.
Tell me more about how uniquely heavy handed the US is, please.
Please do not begin about Beslan here. This is not the place or time.
I don't think the Russian government ever pretends not to be 'heavy-handed'. The difference is that the Russian case involved actual, known terrorists that had strapped bombs to everything. The US case just involves some angry peasants with guns.
So we can talk about things, but not things which make your point look silly?
Well okay there, buddy.
The "US case" involves groups which are two or three steps removed from becoming "terrorist organizations" in some instances.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/11 20:51:39
The feth it's not. You pointed out how uniquely jackbooted my country is. Don't open the can if you don't like what crawls out.
Beslan is a very sensitive matter. It is also comparing apples and oranges. In any case, I did not want to say that the US is the only country with a repressive police, they are not. (Russia and Germany are also very high on that list). But more that scenarios as the one here only seem to happen in the US. I did not mean to insult the US in any way or something like that.
d-usa wrote: The US vs Russia argument can only be solved one way: a sexy dance off!
But that is another thread, so we better behave...
I approve
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/11 21:01:22
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By now you’re familiar with the standoff between the federal government, i.e. the Bureau of Land Management, and 67 year-old rancher Cliven Bundy. (If not, check the backstory and my radio interview with him here.) The BLM asserts their power through the expressed desire to protect the endangered desert tortoise, a tortoise so “endangered” that their population can no longer be contained by the refuge constructed for them so the government is closing it and euthanizing over a thousand tortoises. The tortoises, the excuse that BLM has given for violating claims to easements and running all but one lone rancher out of southern Nevada, is doing fine. In fact, the tortoise has lived in harmony with cattle in the Gold Butte, Clark County Nevada for over a hundred years, or as long as Cliven Bundy’s family has lived on the land as ranchers. In fact, the real threat to it is urbanization, not cattle.
A tortoise isn’t the reason why BLM is harassing a 67 year-old rancher. They want his land. The tortoise wasn’t of concern when Harry Reid worked BLM to literally change the boundaries of the tortoise’s habitat to accommodate the development of his top donor, Harvey Whittemore. Whittemore was convicted of illegal campaign contributions to Senator Reid. Reid’s former senior adviser is now the head of BLM. Reid is accused of using the new BLM chief as a puppet to control Nevada land (already over 84% of which is owned by the federal government) and pay back special interests. BLM has proven that they’ve a situational concern for the desert tortoise as they’ve had no problem waiving their rules concerning wind or solar power development. Clearly these developments have vastly affected a tortoise habitat more than a century-old, quasi-homesteading grazing area. If only Clive Bundy were a big Reid donor.
BLM has also tried to argue that the rules have changed, long after Bundy claims he secured rights and paid his dues to Clark County, Nevada. BLM says they supersede whatever agreement Bundy had prior; they demanded that he reduce his living, his thousand-some-odd head of cattle down to a tiny herd of 150. It’s easy for the government to grant itself powers of overreach, but it doesn’t make it right. Many bad things are done in the name of unjust laws. Just look at Obamacare. This heavy-handed tactic has run the other ranchers from the area and now Bundy is the last one. He’s the last one because he stood up to the federal government.
So why does BLM want to run Bundy off this land and is Reid connected?
I discussed this on “Kelly File” tonight:
*UPDATE: Those who say Bundy is a “deadbeat” are making inaccurate claims. Bundy has in fact paid fees to Clark County, Nevada in an arrangement pre-dating the BLM. The BLM arrived much later, changed the details of the setup without consulting with Bundy — or any other rancher — and then began systematically driving out cattle and ranchers. Bundy refused to pay BLM, especially after they demanded he reduce his heard’s head count down to a level that would not sustain his ranch. Bundy OWNS the water and forage rights to this land. He paid for these rights. He built fences, established water ways, and constructed roads with his own money, with the approval of Nevada and BLM. When BLM started using his fees to run him off the land and harassing him, he ceased paying. So should BLM reimburse him for managing the land and for the confiscation of his water and forage rights?
Cliven Bundy’s problem isn’t that he didn’t pay — he did — or that his cattle bother tortoises — they don’t — it’s that he’s not a Reid donor.
**One last thought: For those conservatives saying that since BLM arrived in the late 90s, it’s the law now, well, so is Obamacare.
Besides what the author posted... it's a damn shame she's only on radio... she's a looker.
That video is dumb.
If cattle were people we would kill them, eat them and use their skin to make clothes. We also would brand them and keep them in herds...
That said if cattle were mayflies this would have been over already.
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d-usa wrote: So is the Lone Ranger Bundy, or the other guy that explained how his cattle is legally grazing there and how be paid his money and got his permit?
The "he's the only guy left" bit makes it clear that the journalist is just serving up BS.
d-usa wrote: So is the Lone Ranger Bundy, or the other guy that explained how his cattle is legally grazing there and how be paid his money and got his permit?
The "he's the only guy left" bit makes it clear that the journalist is just serving up BS.
Nah... It's a seems like a fethed up situation all over. It seems that both sides could've have handled this differently.
I just find it dubious that the BLM is headed by Reid's former advisor and with all the federal properties being shifted to private developers. Now, that may be "normal" when dealing with Federal Lands... I don't know if that sort of thing can happen. It's just a red flag for me at the moment.
Also... what really doesn't make sense is that government plans to euthanize hundreds of desert tortoises after budget cuts to refuge... why euthanize them in the first place? o.O
d-usa wrote: So is the Lone Ranger Bundy, or the other guy that explained how his cattle is legally grazing there and how be paid his money and got his permit?
The "he's the only guy left" bit makes it clear that the journalist is just serving up BS.
What else did you expect from a Whembly post?
Uh... my understanding that it isn't the same region.
It is not his land. It never was. That is the core of his argument. He claims because his family has used it, it is his. And he has been found to be extremely wrong.
Fees and taxes change every year.
Use for land has changing needs and they have a right to repurpose or change the use of the land.
He needs to pay for his usage of the land, it is not his. He refuses to pay any federal government.
He refuses to abide by the federal government regulations.
He is trespassing and a deadbeat. He is advocating violence and lost all his appeals in court.
Other people are paying their fees, following the regulations and still using the land, so it can be done. He could do it to if he followed the rules.
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nkelsch wrote: It is not his land. It never was. That is the core of his argument. He claims because his family has used it, it is his. And he has been found to be extremely wrong.
Fees and taxes change every year.
Use for land has changing needs and they have a right to repurpose or change the use of the land.
He needs to pay for his usage of the land, it is not his. He refuses to pay any federal government.
He refuses to abide by the federal government regulations.
He is trespassing and a deadbeat. He is advocating violence and lost all his appeals in court.
Other people are paying their fees, following the regulations and still using the land, so it can be done. He could do it to if he followed the rules.
There's so much information (or misinformation)... is it clear that BLM just want their fees? Or, are they asking them to "get off their land"?
d-usa wrote: So is the Lone Ranger Bundy, or the other guy that explained how his cattle is legally grazing there and how be paid his money and got his permit?
The "he's the only guy left" bit makes it clear that the journalist is just serving up BS.
What else did you expect from a Whembly post?
Uh... my understanding that it isn't the same region.
All I'm saying is that there's more here than meets the eye...
No there isn't. It's simply another idiot wrapping themselves up in the rhetoric of the "militias" to justify their actions.
Also: Do you even read articles before you post them? Because that article that you posted states that there is "New evidence of voter fraud in North Carolina alleged".
You understand that "alleged" does not mean "confirmed", right?
To top it off though, the allegations of purposeful voter fraud were raised by Civitas...which in and of itself makes those allegations suspect.
Good rule of thumb: whenever any "news" story claims that all of this is just because a bunch of turtles, that's your sign that you can ignore that source.
I believe I posted earlier that I think that rancher is SOL... didn't I?
Jesus.
No one is looking like angels here...
Again... what were the justification that BLM gave to kick off ranchers off?
To kick him off, he owes them 300k$ in grazing fees and he doesn't follow federal regulations for documenting his cattle which leads to risk for animals in food supplies.
Everyone else, they wished to change some of the land to preservations so they offered to buy out people's remaining grazing contracts. Those who did not want to, could continue to pay their fees and follow regulations and stay put within their allotted space.
They want to expand more of the land for nature reservation, which is perfectly acceptable and had plenty of time for discussion and appeals. It has long since been decided. Government land gets repurposed all the time.
Bundy wants nothing short of full, unregulated, undocumented, free use of the land with zero federal involvement. That is an indefensible position. Since he is not getting his way, he is intentionally putting his cattle in harms way in order to get them hurt and killed to make a scene and calling for people to resort to armed violence to protect his personal interests. Both of those actions are also unacceptable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/11 23:11:39
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d-usa wrote: Good rule of thumb: whenever any "news" story claims that all of this is just because a bunch of turtles, that's your sign that you can ignore that source.
Well obviously, everyone knows that it's lizards that are behind everything turtles would just be too silly.
DutchWinsAll wrote: Ahh he's Mormon. That explains the rabid support of Relapse.
Actually I didn't know that, but if you are the kind of person that thinks all people of a religious group hang together, nothing I can do for you.
As for me being a rabid supporter, you clearly haven't read any of my earlier posts. It's the government's methods I have issue with and the way they are disrupting an area's lives, rights and financial livlihoods for one man.
When I say he's becoming a hero to these people, It's not out of admiration, but just stating a point of fact to what I am seeing in the news and being told first hand by people on the scene.
All religious groups? Of course not. But Mormon's have a long history of fighting the Federal government from almost it's inception. From trying to charge the Feds for harboring orphans they created after the Mountain Meadows Massacre to taking Federal aid for their multiple children from multiple wives. "Bleeding the Beast" isn't it called? I mean, the rest of us, we're all just Gentiles right?
Every single poster here has realized Bundy is in the wrong and a criminal. The fact you still support him and keep referencing your family and anecdotal stories shows that you have "a dog in the fight" so to speak. And as you're not an illegal cattle rancher, and the Mormon's history of block-voting and anti-Federalism, it's the only thing I can think that is motivating you. Also, you used InfoWars as a reputable source. It's on the same level as the Weekly World News claiming Bat Boy has been sighted again.
"Hey Dad, where are we going this year for family vacation?"
"Well son, we're heading out to some undeveloped land sixty miles outside of Las Vegas. And its not the Valley of Fire."
"Sounds great Dad!"
DutchWinsAll wrote: Ahh he's Mormon. That explains the rabid support of Relapse.
Actually I didn't know that, but if you are the kind of person that thinks all people of a religious group hang together, nothing I can do for you.
As for me being a rabid supporter, you clearly haven't read any of my earlier posts. It's the government's methods I have issue with and the way they are disrupting an area's lives, rights and financial livlihoods for one man.
When I say he's becoming a hero to these people, It's not out of admiration, but just stating a point of fact to what I am seeing in the news and being told first hand by people on the scene.
Every single poster here has realized Bundy is in the wrong and a criminal.
Really. Where in my post did I say that?. Don't speak for everybody, just yourself.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
DutchWinsAll wrote: Ahh he's Mormon. That explains the rabid support of Relapse.
Actually I didn't know that, but if you are the kind of person that thinks all people of a religious group hang together, nothing I can do for you.
As for me being a rabid supporter, you clearly haven't read any of my earlier posts. It's the government's methods I have issue with and the way they are disrupting an area's lives, rights and financial livlihoods for one man.
When I say he's becoming a hero to these people, It's not out of admiration, but just stating a point of fact to what I am seeing in the news and being told first hand by people on the scene.
Every single poster here has realized Bundy is in the wrong and a criminal.
Really. Where in my post did I say that?. Don't speak for everybody, just yourself.
Sorry, I missed one.
Just everyone else. Even the more conservative posters here can see this guy is a criminal and have said so.
I believe I posted earlier that I think that rancher is SOL... didn't I?
Jesus.
No one is looking like angels here...
Again... what were the justification that BLM gave to kick off ranchers off?
To kick him off, he owes them 300k$ in grazing fees and he doesn't follow federal regulations for documenting his cattle which leads to risk for animals in food supplies.
Everyone else, they wished to change some of the land to preservations so they offered to buy out people's remaining grazing contracts. Those who did not want to, could continue to pay their fees and follow regulations and stay put within their allotted space.
Ah then... he's SOL.
They want to expand more of the land for nature reservation, which is perfectly acceptable and had plenty of time for discussion and appeals. It has long since been decided. Government land gets repurposed all the time.
Yeah, that's what I was reading...
Bundy wants nothing short of full, unregulated, undocumented, free use of the land with zero federal involvement. That is an indefensible position. Since he is not getting his way, he is intentionally putting his cattle in harms way in order to get them hurt and killed to make a scene and calling for people to resort to armed violence to protect his personal interests. Both of those actions are also unacceptable.
Right... I'm still trying to get all the details.
Anyone seen the court cases on this? Those would be public documents...eh?
DutchWinsAll wrote: Ahh he's Mormon. That explains the rabid support of Relapse.
Actually I didn't know that, but if you are the kind of person that thinks all people of a religious group hang together, nothing I can do for you.
As for me being a rabid supporter, you clearly haven't read any of my earlier posts. It's the government's methods I have issue with and the way they are disrupting an area's lives, rights and financial livlihoods for one man.
When I say he's becoming a hero to these people, It's not out of admiration, but just stating a point of fact to what I am seeing in the news and being told first hand by people on the scene.
Every single poster here has realized Bundy is in the wrong and a criminal.
Really. Where in my post did I say that?. Don't speak for everybody, just yourself.
Sorry, I missed one.
Just everyone else. Even the more conservative posters here can see this guy is a criminal and have said so.
I see trial by internet. Me I'll just watch and see what turns up.
Maybe he's guilty, maybe not. Time will tell.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
What I find amusing is Bundy argued "My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley ever since 1877. All these rights I claim have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water. I have been here longer. My rights are before the BLM even existed,"
I'm sure we can find some Native Americans who can put forth an older claim than his...
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
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Iron_Captain wrote: Why can't those people calm down and act maturely? If you disagree with the authorities, there are probably ways to take it up in a civil manner.
Why can't the US government act more like the democratic government it is supposed to be instead of some fascist republic-style ''justice''? Why does it send in snipers etc.? No need for that. They should engage in dialogue with the people instead.
Both sides need to calm and have sittings down for talks. Without weapons.
And why do these kinds of things only seem tohappen in USA?
They happen in Europe, also I think. It's just that the USA encompases an area the size of most multiple countries over there. Also, I submit for your approval the whole situation that went on immediatly after the Soviet Union broke up and the fact that Crimea just broke away from the Ukraine over thej issue of rights for Russians.
DutchWinsAll wrote: Ahh he's Mormon. That explains the rabid support of Relapse.
Actually I didn't know that, but if you are the kind of person that thinks all people of a religious group hang together, nothing I can do for you.
As for me being a rabid supporter, you clearly haven't read any of my earlier posts. It's the government's methods I have issue with and the way they are disrupting an area's lives, rights and financial livlihoods for one man.
When I say he's becoming a hero to these people, It's not out of admiration, but just stating a point of fact to what I am seeing in the news and being told first hand by people on the scene.
All religious groups? Of course not. But Mormon's have a long history of fighting the Federal government from almost it's inception. From trying to charge the Feds for harboring orphans they created after the Mountain Meadows Massacre to taking Federal aid for their multiple children from multiple wives. "Bleeding the Beast" isn't it called? I mean, the rest of us, we're all just Gentiles right?
Every single poster here has realized Bundy is in the wrong and a criminal. The fact you still support him and keep referencing your family and anecdotal stories shows that you have "a dog in the fight" so to speak. And as you're not an illegal cattle rancher, and the Mormon's history of block-voting and anti-Federalism, it's the only thing I can think that is motivating you. Also, you used InfoWars as a reputable source. It's on the same level as the Weekly World News claiming Bat Boy has been sighted again.
"Hey Dad, where are we going this year for family vacation?"
"Well son, we're heading out to some undeveloped land sixty miles outside of Las Vegas. And its not the Valley of Fire."
"Sounds great Dad!"
Said no family vacation ever.
You just plumed a whole new depth of ignorance with your post. Yup, it's the Mormons behind this, all right, and you're the only one with the cleverness to see the plot.
Where do I say I support him? Count the number of posts where I say he should have been out of there. I don't know what your issue is here, but when you start off your posts with lies about what I have said about Bundy, it shows you have no valid point to make.
As far as the area goes, the Valley af Fire, Lake Mead, and some amazing hiking and camping trails are within a half hour or less from Overton. You continually prove you know less than nothing about me, the Moapa Valley and the people in it, or how I care for my family and enjoy seeing them.
You have proven you have a hot nut for the Mormons by continually , in a passive aggresive fashion, attacking me for my religion, and dropping insinuations and one sided stories about my religion.
That's cool, I have had far better people than you gang up on me because I am Mormon, so your little quips are pretty weak. Stay classy, Dutch.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/04/12 13:26:17
Tannhauser42 wrote: What I find amusing is Bundy argued "My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley ever since 1877. All these rights I claim have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water. I have been here longer. My rights are before the BLM even existed,"
I'm sure we can find some Native Americans who can put forth an older claim than his...
If almost no tribe has been able to make the US stick to any treaty they actually signed, a white guy who says his great gramps got some land from a dude once doesn't stand a chance...
d-usa wrote: Good rule of thumb: whenever any "news" story claims that all of this is just because a bunch of turtles, that's your sign that you can ignore that source.
Definitely not the turtles, they're just the excuse.
As an aside, Logandale, where the writer of the editorial about leasing land from the BLM is from, is also in Clark County. I might have to make a call or two down there tomorrow to find out why Bundy is being called the last rancher if there are other people grazing cattle in Clark County.
Good thing it was not Red Cockaded Woodpeckers. Quite a legal battle to keep troops housed in the barracks when the birds nested in the tree's by them. Also at National Training Center in Cali at Fort Irwin. The desert turtle/tortuise/whatever all traffic must halt on road till turtle crosses the road or go wide of it by 100 meter. Do not pick up the turtle for the turtle will pee itself and then die of dehydration. Track vehicles are the exception being limited visibility when in combat mode. Wonder if its the same dang turtle.....
Fort Polk, LA. Do not mess with the wild horses on the reservation.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
" -KingCracker
