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2014/04/26 01:27:52
Subject: Jy2 Goes to Adepticon (WARNING - Lots of Pics! Batrep Links on p.1, Game #4 on p.6)
Tim's army is one of those that can catch you out. Hindsight is always 20-20. That said I would have either ignore the deathstar or throw everything plus the kitchen sink at it.
Every time I see the first image of this report I can't help but think of that seen at the end of those super hero movies where Nick Fury says "I am forming a team.....The avenger initiaive!" I keep playing it over and over except with Corteaz instead of Nick Fury
Then I imagine how this report played out as being the plot for Expendables 3 and I chuckle some more.
Deathstar 40k is annoying and silly but I have to be honest and say that particular one has made me smirk a bit... Perhaps not in the best way, but still pretty funny...
Why would you charge in w/ Legion of the Damned? They had Meltas. Is that just to get the charge bonus and to avoid the next turn shooting? Was he going to get his LotD charged anyway?
Tough break jy2. Well done for getting so far with an older army. Whats next are you sticking with the crons or back to nids or daemons for rournaments?
Great reports as always, thanks for sharing them.
2014/04/26 09:51:27
Subject: Re:Jy2 Goes to Adepticon (WARNING - Lots of Pics! Batrep Links on p.1, Game #4 on p.6)
Wow wasn't expecting such a big loss. It seems as though your opponents army was better than yours in all respects - they outshot you, and were better in CC. If the D-Lords hadn't kept getting back up it could even have been worse.
Thanks for sharing these reports, really enjoyed them.
2014/04/27 03:26:56
Subject: Jy2 Goes to Adepticon (WARNING - Lots of Pics! Batrep Links on p.1, Game #4 on p.6)
I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/27 03:27:08
2014/04/27 06:50:34
Subject: Jy2 Goes to Adepticon (WARNING - Lots of Pics! Batrep Links on p.1, Game #4 on p.6)
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
Why drop Crons for Nids? Crons has the tools to put up a better fight here. Spyders with a gloom prison can give a 4+ save to all psychic and certainly slow the bleed out from misfortune.
Also, Death and Despairtek (via Nemesor Zandrekh Express Delivery Night Scythe) can be brutal against Death stars, bringing couple hundred ultra killy points against in some cases 900 or more points in these Deathstars.
JY2 brought a very solid all-around list and a list he knew how to pilot well and did indeed pilot very well but the meta had shifted so heavily to Psychic and Deathstar that the Double Wraithwing list that JY2 fielded needed some significant tweaks to bring the list up to date and compensate for the meta. That's my take on the match. This is also just echoing what JY2 said on page one of this thread, where he said that the West Coast players were bringing older competitive builds against the newer competitive builds brought by the East Coast players.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/27 07:11:30
2014/04/27 07:47:25
Subject: Jy2 Goes to Adepticon (WARNING - Lots of Pics! Batrep Links on p.1, Game #4 on p.6)
shogun wrote: I'am trying to figure out why the centurion-star got a chapter master with jumppack instead of another bike.
Isn't it also better to replace the hurricane bolters with missle launchers and field them as allies with imperial fist chapter tactics(tank hunter)?
Great report..as always!
Pretty simple acctually.
WIth the bike master, you have a jink save and enemy can focus fire to ignore your tankmaster. You give one the jetpack, put him up front to tank, and can LOS to the second if you get overwhelmed with firepower. Majority toughness in the unit is still 5, and since the jetpack one has the shield eternal you dont have to worry about him being instagibbed.
As for the missles, its widely accepted that hurricane bolters are fine since you need the extra anti-infantry for hordes and your saving 40 points for the 4 cents. Also, you take the Iron hands CT for the fnp, since tank hunters does nothing for grav cannons and would be a waste.
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2014/04/27 10:44:26
Subject: Jy2 Goes to Adepticon (WARNING - Lots of Pics! Batrep Links on p.1, Game #4 on p.6)
shogun wrote: I'am trying to figure out why the centurion-star got a chapter master with jumppack instead of another bike.
Isn't it also better to replace the hurricane bolters with missle launchers and field them as allies with imperial fist chapter tactics(tank hunter)?
Great report..as always!
Pretty simple acctually.
WIth the bike master, you have a jink save and enemy can focus fire to ignore your tankmaster. You give one the jetpack, put him up front to tank, and can LOS to the second if you get overwhelmed with firepower. Majority toughness in the unit is still 5, and since the jetpack one has the shield eternal you dont have to worry about him being instagibbed.
As for the missles, its widely accepted that hurricane bolters are fine since you need the extra anti-infantry for hordes and your saving 40 points for the 4 cents. Also, you take the Iron hands CT for the fnp, since tank hunters does nothing for grav cannons and would be a waste.
But with two bikes you can still put the one with "shield eternal" up front and LOS to the second. The both have the 5+ jinx save so you can still not focus fire the other tankmaster if theirs another with the same coversave up front.
The Iron hands characters are great with "it will not die" and also the feel no pain but I thought its possible to add the "imperial fists" as allies, but then I forgot that you got an ultra marine Tigurius.
2014/04/27 13:20:43
Subject: Jy2 Goes to Adepticon (WARNING - Lots of Pics! Batrep Links on p.1, Game #4 on p.6)
Tough luck on that last game, Jy2. Still, a great showing as always (and great bat reps!)
Sanguine Fist Lion's Claw
Gitsplitta wrote:Yes, please note that the arrival of the cat coincided with my complete failure militarily. Cats not only suck the breath out of little babies, they sucked the life out of my counter attack!
2014/04/27 15:35:26
Subject: Jy2 Goes to Adepticon (WARNING - Lots of Pics! Batrep Links on p.1, Game #4 on p.6)
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
No ones ignoring it, you really might look over his opponents list and realize how easily he can get whatever power he feels he needs from that the divination table.
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
No ones ignoring it, you really might look over his opponents list and realize how easily he can get whatever power he feels he needs from that the divination table.
^^This. It's not all that unlikely for Tiggy to get exactly what he wants. That's why ya bring him.
"Backfield? I have no backfield."
2014/04/28 00:36:37
Subject: Jy2 Goes to Adepticon (WARNING - Lots of Pics! Batrep Links on p.1, Game #4 on p.6)
Hey Jy2, love reading your reports, gives me great insight into playing. (you might have seen a few of my posts in your other reports).
I think that marine list is very interesting and I want you opinion: do you think the list a GOOD list or more of a meta games list? Do you think it was mostly bad luck for you that you lost?
I am thinking of building a list similar to this and want to know it it would be a good call. Also what kinda armies does this army struggle against?
(sorry for all the questions, thanks!)
Check out my little ork story I am working on here!
Ecstasy in Service wrote: Hey Jy2, love reading your reports, gives me great insight into playing. (you might have seen a few of my posts in your other reports).
I think that marine list is very interesting and I want you opinion: do you think the list a GOOD list or more of a meta games list? Do you think it was mostly bad luck for you that you lost?
I am thinking of building a list similar to this and want to know it it would be a good call. Also what kinda armies does this army struggle against?
(sorry for all the questions, thanks!)
I'm not Jim, but I'll give my input!
This list is good regardless I feel. It has the tools to handle just about anything from the meta, and I think the only concerns might be something like Screamerstar? Not sure, but it would be able to shoot the crap outta stuff any pretty much never lose anything. Besides that it'll handle AM, FMC Circus, Nids, Seer Council, BeastStar, O'vesa Star, etc just fine.
Of course, one thing to keep in mind: Tim won with a good list, yes, but he is also an incredibly good player. He won the Torrent of Fire Invitational, where 32 top players in the country competed in a tournament. So don't expect to be able to take his list and then "I KILL EVERYTHING". It takes skill too
But yes, I think the list is very solid
13000
12000
:daemon 14000
:darkeldar 5000
2014/04/28 18:59:26
Subject: Jy2 Goes to Adepticon (WARNING - Lots of Pics! Batrep Links on p.1, Game #4 on p.6)
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
Why drop Crons for Nids? Crons has the tools to put up a better fight here. Spyders with a gloom prison can give a 4+ save to all psychic and certainly slow the bleed out from misfortune.
Also, Death and Despairtek (via Nemesor Zandrekh Express Delivery Night Scythe) can be brutal against Death stars, bringing couple hundred ultra killy points against in some cases 900 or more points in these Deathstars.
JY2 brought a very solid all-around list and a list he knew how to pilot well and did indeed pilot very well but the meta had shifted so heavily to Psychic and Deathstar that the Double Wraithwing list that JY2 fielded needed some significant tweaks to bring the list up to date and compensate for the meta. That's my take on the match. This is also just echoing what JY2 said on page one of this thread, where he said that the West Coast players were bringing older competitive builds against the newer competitive builds brought by the East Coast players.
Sorry, I'm not saying that in THIS particular tournament he should have taken Nids, I would just rather see him play Nids. I play Nids, I think he plays Nids extremely well and I learn a lot from him.
Other than that, I agree with the rest of your post.
Red Corsair wrote:
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
No ones ignoring it, you really might look over his opponents list and realize how easily he can get whatever power he feels he needs from that the divination table.
I think you're probably right, I don't know much of the ridiculously over powered combinations since I strictly play Nids. I probably should familiarize myself more. I have a hesitation with that though because I'm sure someday when GW takes their head out of the @$$ the divination table will either disappear or get extremely nerfed....
2014/04/28 20:11:01
Subject: Jy2 Goes to Adepticon (WARNING - Lots of Pics! Batrep Links on p.1, Game #4 on p.6)
I am actually hopeful that they alter the tables heavily with the reboot. There is no need for every army in the game to have access to blanket re-rolls. It really is making the game stupid. TL weapons cost a lot for a reason, sadly they seem way over priced now only because entire units get everything TL, oh and it works in HtH.... We shall see though.
Ok, after a brief hiatus, I'm happy to say that.....
....I'M BACK!
First off, let me wrap up Game #4 with my Post-game thoughts.
Game #4 Post-game Thoughts:
Spoiler:
So this is a first. First time where my Lords got up, what 3 or 4 times, and I still lost the game. Well, actually, this may have been the 2nd time. The 1st time I believe was actually against Skyblight nids. In any case, where was I off? What went wrong in this game?
1. Tim was rolling well. He was making his saves and what little skyfire he had was getting the job done. I should have been able to take out his Centurionstar, especially when most of my Mindshackles were going through, but his Chapter Masters just wouldn't fail their last saves. He only had 1 string of bad rolling and that was when he lost his thunderfire cannon and techmarine.
2. I did roll well with my Everliving, get-back-up rolls, but for the most part, my dice were somewhat subpar, both in my offense and with my saves. I couldn't finish off his straggling units for those easy VP's due in part to my poor offense and good saves by my opponent.
3. Misfortune's a b*tch. Still can't believe that Tigurius b*tch-slapped my wraiths with Misfortune and force weapons. Surprisingly (at least to me), he was actually the main workhorse in the unit. While his Chapter Masters were busy pounding on themselves, Tigurius was busy killing wraiths and even my D-lords. Go figure.
4. Tim played great. He played like a true champion. Usually when I play in what I felt was a bad matchup for me, I would normally play the denial game with as many units in reserves as possible. That was exactly what Tim did. He knew how devastating my shooting could be and thus, gave me no targets other than his deathstar.
5. I made 2 mistakes. Now these weren't major mistakes, but they could have made a difference. The first was to avoid his deathstar with my barges on Turn 1. That extra turn of shooting could have made a difference. With 3 barges, even snapfiring, if I could have caused even 1W to one of his Chapter Masters, I could have killed one of them. That could have been a difference-maker in the main combat between his Centurionstar and my 2 wraithstars.
6. The 2nd mistake was to assault his deathstar on Turn 5 with my D-lord. I should have just contested the middle objective and force my opponent to focus on him instead. Now, I wouldn't have won with this tactic, but I could have potentially came out with a minor defeat instead of a crushing defeat. With a minor defeat, I still had a sliver of a chance to make it into the Sweet 16 (I believe there were 1 or 2 players with 1 minor defeat who made it).
Oh well, it was a great game. Win or lose, I'm glad I got the opportunity to play against a great player like Tim and one of the new super-powered deathstars like the Centurionstar. Tomorrow will be just relaxation and a lot of no-pressure, fun games.
Still to come....
I get in a pick-up game against Justin Cook's GT-winning O'vesastar.
And....
Team Roommates vs Team Zero Comp.
My roommate Stephen "Chancetragedy" and I, Jim "Jy2" pit our armies - Wraithwing Necrons and White Scars - against Team Zero Comp's "World's Greatest 40K Player" Frankie's GT-winning Venom-spam Dark Eldar/Eldar and "InControl" Geoff's FMC-spam Tyranids.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 15:51:51
I understand that opinions will differ on this. I look at it from the perspective that while it is good against buffed-up characters, it is a waste on models like ork boys, gants, infantry guardsmen, fire warriors, zombies/cultists and even normal marines.
All examples of models that you don't need it to beat. A destroyer lord is not even remotely threatened by any of the models you mention here. Combat effectiveness of predominantly combat-oriented models should be based on their cost. You pay 150 points for a destroyer lord, you should expect to beat a 30 point guard officer. But you should also expect to lose to a 250 point bloodthirster. Instead MSS give you a better than 50% chance of beating it. That's just wrong.
Nonetheless, there is actually more of a chance for the D-lords to encounter the "normal" guys over the rather bloated ones. You may want to compare apples to apples, but the truth of the matter is that in most games, the apples are going to encounter the oranges probably more than 50% of the time.
Also, without Mindshackles, necrons will get destroyed by assault armies. MSS is to give them even a modicum of a chance against those armies.
Red Corsair wrote: Necrons do have anti psycher, it's called the gloom prism
I think it's safe to say MSS will be a VERY expensive relic if it does manage to stick around, though I doubt it does.
Back on topic, Tigurius has the ability to re-roll reserves, so he doesn't even need scriers gaze. Tiggy is one of the best characters in print right now.
I think it's funny that he didn't use his orbital bombardments at all. He easily could have split the unit last turn and nabbed the remaining barges. He obviously didn't need to though.
Oops. Forgot about the gloom prism. Well, I take it back about our lack of psychic defense.
I didn't mention it, but Tim did use his orbitals on T1 to help kill off my wraith unit for First Blood.
No worries. Despite the shellacking, I was still glad to have played against my opponent.
Dozer Blades wrote: Oh well - you lost to one of the top players in the country so no shame.
I like to think of it more like....my opponent managed to beat one of the top players in the country. Haha....
Shandara wrote: So lucky with the res rolls, it's like you get 3 warlords for the price of one!
Yeah, those ResOrbs are a great investment. I always take 1 for my Warlord and I'd take 2 if I could afford to.
Doombiscuit wrote: Disappointed for you here Jy2, that centurion star looked terrifying. Despite the loss, I've loved reading this tournament series. If it's any consolation, I've learnt so much from your reports over the years I've even started winning with my Nids! Look forward to seeing more of your reports and hopefully the next tournament will see you in the finals.
Thanks. I'm not disappointed at all (well, maybe just a little). My goal at this point wasn't really to win it all. It was to:
All examples of models that you don't need it to beat. A destroyer lord is not even remotely threatened by any of the models you mention here. Combat effectiveness of predominantly combat-oriented models should be based on their cost. You pay 150 points for a destroyer lord, you should expect to beat a 30 point guard officer. But you should also expect to lose to a 250 point bloodthirster. Instead MSS give you a better than 50% chance of beating it. That's just wrong.
This is exactly how I feel about MSS. When I played Necrons I never felt good when my destroyer lord completely punked out a 200+ point MC with utter ease. For lack of a better description, it just felt wrong.
Wow tough game Jy2. Centurions are just extremely durable. Plus he had 4 ICs piled in there. I know I'm being captain hindsight but I didn't get why you didn't charge forward and shoot them with your barges, because it probably would have been a plus to you if they shot a barge instead of the wraiths. However you mentioned that too so whatevs. Awesome tournament man and thanks again for the best batreps on here.
Thanks!
I'm sure GW will hit MSS with the nerfbat when the new Necron dex comes out.
It was a mistake not to shoot with my barges but I did it mainly because:
1. Unfamiliarity with the Centurionstar. Thus, I played a little more conservatively.
2. Barges are triply important in this matchup. First off, killing 1 takes out a scoring unit. Second and thirdly, they are worth 2x VP's.
3. Easy First Blood. It is much easier for him to kill a barge than it is to kill my wraiths (which BTW I rolled poorly on their saves even without Misfortune to lose them all).
MikhailLenin wrote: Hey JY, in your game against Tim, did the Jump Pack Chapter Master never take a wound from his own Thunderhammer from the Mindshackle Scarabs? If he did why didn't he die from Instant Death?
What the others said. The Jump CM is that one with the Shield Eternal, which gives him Eternal Warrior.
If the current trend of only two sources sticks on the tourney scene.. lists like this become a lot less of an issue. You can still do tig and a cent star but you have to pick and choose what you want to go with them. Can't get all the candy... just a couple of pieces. I'm sure some other list will evolve to take its place... but that is the nature of the game.
Yeah, that is the purpose of the 2-sources limitations - to make sure some armies/units don't become too crazy.
For my first time at Adepticon as well I think it was an absolute blast. When you make it out to the EC or maybe the ATC we will have to get in our game
Glad to have met you bud.
Hey Rob! Congrats on your 2nd place finish! Awesome job. I must say, you really made me eat my words with regards to East Coast/West Coast players. Don't worry though, I will make it to Day #2 the next time.
Yeah, one of these days, we will get a game in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 16:33:44
Nonetheless, there is actually more of a chance for the D-lords to encounter the "normal" guys over the rather bloated ones. You may want to compare apples to apples, but the truth of the matter is that in most games, the apples are going to encounter the oranges probably more than 50% of the time.
Also, without Mindshackles, necrons will get destroyed by assault armies. MSS is to give them even a modicum of a chance against those armies.
Guard seem to manage. Tau seem to manage. Destroyer Lords + Wraiths are still a strong option, even without MSS. MSS don't give Necrons a modicum of a chance against assault armies, it gives Necrons a coin-flip to beat any assault model in the game, regardless of how many points that model cost. That's poor game design. Again, I don't believe that the 150 point CC model should have a 55% chance of beating the 250 point CC model. With things like Bloodthirsters getting LD 9, that's exactly what MSS do. As an army with plenty of valid shooty options (some of the best mid-range shooting in the game), their modicum of a chance should be based on weakening those assault units ahead of the assault, not in some poorly designed wargear that just wins.
As a side note, everliving rolls mean that destroyer lords pose a serious threat to all the oranges in the game (the oranges are the generic guys, right, not the tooled up bosses? Sorry, not really following the analogy) because unlike any other model in the game, they can't shoot them down and cease to worry about them. Pour enough fire into anything else in the game and it will drop and not assault you. Pour enough fire into a destroyer lord and it still has a 50% chance to get right back up and eat all your oranges. You're right, MSS aren't about the oranges, because MSS aren't needed against the oranges.
y0disisray wrote: Well Jim you had three solid wins in the beginning and then terrible luck on the last game. Your opponent rolled really good psychic powers which contributed to the majority of your defeat. Seems like you keep falling one game shy every tourney of reaching the final 16. I think it is time you switched back to your Nids.
Lol. Yeah, next time it will be bugs, though the reasons for switching isn't because they are a better or worse army. It's mainly for variety in playstyle and to give each of my army a chance in competitive play.
Red Corsair wrote: Back on topic, Tigurius has the ability to re-roll reserves, so he doesn't even need scriers gaze.
Only from his own detachment, though.
Must've been coincidence for both of his henchmen units to come in on T4 then.
col_impact wrote: Considering how significant psychic abilities wound up being in the matchup, do you think running Spyder-Star as opposed to dual Wraith-star could have been a better meta call?
It really depends on what you go up against. Wraithwing will do better against some armies and the spyderstar will do better against others. Neither is superior to the other.
In this matchup, while the spyderstar gives some resistance to Misfortune, it would have been shot up by the Centurionstar. It's high Toughness means nothing to grav-weaponry and the lack of Invuln's means it doesn't have a prayer of a chance against the shooting of the Centurionstar (which also ignored cover due to Perfect Timing).
Fragile wrote: Tactical error in holding the barges back on the first round. Your Wraiths are target priority over the barges for him so there was no need to stick them back at 31". You may have forced an extra wound or two there.
Yeah, should have just risked him shooting at my barges.
Dozer Blades wrote: Tim's army is one of those that can catch you out. Hindsight is always 20-20. That said I would have either ignore the deathstar or throw everything plus the kitchen sink at it.
Well, he did do a great job of denying me everything else and I did throw everything at it.
But now that I am no longer a Centurion-virgin, I will have a better idea next time on how to deal with them.
herpguy wrote: Yeah centstar is always a Catch-22. You can't ignore it because it can do so much, but you will waste so much time trying to put it down.
It shares the same weaknesses as Draigowing - a slow deathstar without much maneuverability and that can target only a limited number of units. However, it was actually his supporting units who were beating my supporting units. I think that is the actual difference-maker there.
In a deathstar army, the one who kills the the most supporting units will have the advantage. ALWAYS go after the supporting units. Tim understood this, which was why he reserved almost all of his support units.
Red Corsair wrote: Every time I see the first image of this report I can't help but think of that seen at the end of those super hero movies where Nick Fury says "I am forming a team.....The avenger initiaive!" I keep playing it over and over except with Corteaz instead of Nick Fury
Then I imagine how this report played out as being the plot for Expendables 3 and I chuckle some more.
Deathstar 40k is annoying and silly but I have to be honest and say that particular one has made me smirk a bit... Perhaps not in the best way, but still pretty funny...
Fething cyber eagles
Haha....nice imagery.
Yeah, I think we can call it Superfriends 40K.
Mythra wrote: Why would you charge in w/ Legion of the Damned? They had Meltas. Is that just to get the charge bonus and to avoid the next turn shooting? Was he going to get his LotD charged anyway?
To hopefully sweep my troops? They're getting 3 attacks on the charge. They could potentially finish off my immortals. Moreover, even if he doesn't finish them off, he was hoping to lock my immortals in place so that they couldn't get to the objectives.
It was also to avoid my shooting next turn. 5-man marine squads go down fairly easily to enough rapid-fire.
No, I wasn't planning on charging his LotD. I was planning to rapid-fire on them some more.
djn wrote: Tough break jy2. Well done for getting so far with an older army. Whats next are you sticking with the crons or back to nids or daemons for rournaments?
Great reports as always, thanks for sharing them.
Thanks.
Crons will be retired from tournament play for a while. I will run bugs in the next big GT and probably daemons after that.
tyrannosaurus wrote: Wow wasn't expecting such a big loss. It seems as though your opponents army was better than yours in all respects - they outshot you, and were better in CC. If the D-Lords hadn't kept getting back up it could even have been worse.
Thanks for sharing these reports, really enjoyed them.
Yeah, my opponent out-rolled me in this game.
I still think, however, that my crons match up better against his army than most.
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
Misfortune was huge. Misfortune + my inability to make saves (I normally don't do that bad, even against Misfortune) = a big whooping!
Actually, statistically, I should be only failing 5/9 of the time. Well, I beat the statistical norm and was actually failing about 3/4 of the time.
shogun wrote: I'am trying to figure out why the centurion-star got a chapter master with jumppack instead of another bike.
Isn't it also better to replace the hurricane bolters with missle launchers and field them as allies with imperial fist chapter tactics(tank hunter)?
Great report..as always!
Thanks!
So he could kill/contest guys/objectives on top of ruins. Bikes can't go up. That's what the jump pack CM is for.
Hurricane bolters are necessary against daemons and other horde armies with poor saves. Otherwise, his grav-guns will be wounding the likes of zombies, orks, termagants and daemons on 6's.
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
Why drop Crons for Nids? Crons has the tools to put up a better fight here. Spyders with a gloom prison can give a 4+ save to all psychic and certainly slow the bleed out from misfortune.
Also, Death and Despairtek (via Nemesor Zandrekh Express Delivery Night Scythe) can be brutal against Death stars, bringing couple hundred ultra killy points against in some cases 900 or more points in these Deathstars.
JY2 brought a very solid all-around list and a list he knew how to pilot well and did indeed pilot very well but the meta had shifted so heavily to Psychic and Deathstar that the Double Wraithwing list that JY2 fielded needed some significant tweaks to bring the list up to date and compensate for the meta. That's my take on the match. This is also just echoing what JY2 said on page one of this thread, where he said that the West Coast players were bringing older competitive builds against the newer competitive builds brought by the East Coast players.
Actually, IMO the spyderstar would have done worse here. While they have defense against Misfortune, they can't do much against grav-weaponry which also ignored cover. He would have blown away the spyderstar in no time.
When I run bugs, it isn't really whether it would have done better or worse here (it would have most likely done worse). It would mainly be because I wanted a change in play-styles. Had my bugs actually been completed, it would have been almost a coin-flip with regards to which army I would have taken here to Adepticon.
shogun wrote: I'am trying to figure out why the centurion-star got a chapter master with jumppack instead of another bike.
Isn't it also better to replace the hurricane bolters with missle launchers and field them as allies with imperial fist chapter tactics(tank hunter)?
Great report..as always!
Pretty simple acctually.
WIth the bike master, you have a jink save and enemy can focus fire to ignore your tankmaster. You give one the jetpack, put him up front to tank, and can LOS to the second if you get overwhelmed with firepower. Majority toughness in the unit is still 5, and since the jetpack one has the shield eternal you dont have to worry about him being instagibbed.
As for the missles, its widely accepted that hurricane bolters are fine since you need the extra anti-infantry for hordes and your saving 40 points for the 4 cents. Also, you take the Iron hands CT for the fnp, since tank hunters does nothing for grav cannons and would be a waste.
And that too!
Ricedaddy wrote: Tough luck on that last game, Jy2. Still, a great showing as always (and great bat reps!)
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
No ones ignoring it, you really might look over his opponents list and realize how easily he can get whatever power he feels he needs from that the divination table.
Even with Tiggy's re-rolls, there's still a chance of not getting what he needs. Without doing the math, my estimate is that he probably has about a 3/4 chance of getting what he wants.
Ecstasy in Service wrote: Hey Jy2, love reading your reports, gives me great insight into playing. (you might have seen a few of my posts in your other reports).
I think that marine list is very interesting and I want you opinion: do you think the list a GOOD list or more of a meta games list? Do you think it was mostly bad luck for you that you lost?
I am thinking of building a list similar to this and want to know it it would be a good call. Also what kinda armies does this army struggle against?
(sorry for all the questions, thanks!)
It's a good list but you have to understand it's limitations. It's very similar in playstyle to Draigowing in that you have 1 huge but slow deathstar that can target limited units. In our game, several factors went my opponent's way which actually made it into a favorable matchup for him. Firstly, it was Big Guns, which gave him 4 extra scoring units, including an ultra-durable deathstar. Secondly, good psychic powers against an army with no psychic defense. Thirdly, being able to go 2nd against an army which really doesn't have great alpha-strike capabilities (my army is more of a beta-strike army, or an army that hits hard starting on Turn 2 instead of on Turn 1).
It isn't an easy army to play, but it is an army that will give many other armies some problems. Basically, it is a finesse list and actually requires a lot of tactical play to make it work well. As a deathstar army, it's got poor mobility and limited resources. You really need to understand your limitations to get the most out of your army, but once you do, it's a proven army that has the potential to win tournaments.
Ecstasy in Service wrote: Hey Jy2, love reading your reports, gives me great insight into playing. (you might have seen a few of my posts in your other reports).
I think that marine list is very interesting and I want you opinion: do you think the list a GOOD list or more of a meta games list? Do you think it was mostly bad luck for you that you lost?
I am thinking of building a list similar to this and want to know it it would be a good call. Also what kinda armies does this army struggle against?
(sorry for all the questions, thanks!)
I'm not Jim, but I'll give my input!
This list is good regardless I feel. It has the tools to handle just about anything from the meta, and I think the only concerns might be something like Screamerstar? Not sure, but it would be able to shoot the crap outta stuff any pretty much never lose anything. Besides that it'll handle AM, FMC Circus, Nids, Seer Council, BeastStar, O'vesa Star, etc just fine.
Of course, one thing to keep in mind: Tim won with a good list, yes, but he is also an incredibly good player. He won the Torrent of Fire Invitational, where 32 top players in the country competed in a tournament. So don't expect to be able to take his list and then "I KILL EVERYTHING". It takes skill too
But yes, I think the list is very solid
Agreed. It takes skill to play this list well. It's not as straight-forwards as the seer council, screamerstar, beaststar or some of the other deathstar armies. It's more of a thinking man's deathstar. You really have to plan your next moves in advance due to your lack of mobility.
Sorry, I'm not saying that in THIS particular tournament he should have taken Nids, I would just rather see him play Nids. I play Nids, I think he plays Nids extremely well and I learn a lot from him.
Don't worry. Nids will be coming soon to a GT near you. Or in batreps for the time being....
Red Corsair wrote: I am actually hopeful that they alter the tables heavily with the reboot. There is no need for every army in the game to have access to blanket re-rolls. It really is making the game stupid. TL weapons cost a lot for a reason, sadly they seem way over priced now only because entire units get everything TL, oh and it works in HtH.... We shall see though.
Re-rolls are the real new "king of the metas", whether it is twin-linked, Prescience, Prefered Enemy, Hatred or re-roll saves. IMO, if you don't have re-rolls in spades, then you aren't top-tier. Unfortunately, they are here to stay and I don't see next edition taking them away. That's because it is still so under the radar. Most people think deathstars are OP, but I wonder if they truly considered why deathstars are truly OP.
Nonetheless, there is actually more of a chance for the D-lords to encounter the "normal" guys over the rather bloated ones. You may want to compare apples to apples, but the truth of the matter is that in most games, the apples are going to encounter the oranges probably more than 50% of the time.
Also, without Mindshackles, necrons will get destroyed by assault armies. MSS is to give them even a modicum of a chance against those armies.
Guard seem to manage. Tau seem to manage. Destroyer Lords + Wraiths are still a strong option, even without MSS. MSS don't give Necrons a modicum of a chance against assault armies, it gives Necrons a coin-flip to beat any assault model in the game, regardless of how many points that model cost. That's poor game design. Again, I don't believe that the 150 point CC model should have a 55% chance of beating the 250 point CC model. With things like Bloodthirsters getting LD 9, that's exactly what MSS do. As an army with plenty of valid shooty options (some of the best mid-range shooting in the game), their modicum of a chance should be based on weakening those assault units ahead of the assault, not in some poorly designed wargear that just wins.
As a side note, everliving rolls mean that destroyer lords pose a serious threat to all the oranges in the game (the oranges are the generic guys, right, not the tooled up bosses? Sorry, not really following the analogy) because unlike any other model in the game, they can't shoot them down and cease to worry about them. Pour enough fire into anything else in the game and it will drop and not assault you. Pour enough fire into a destroyer lord and it still has a 50% chance to get right back up and eat all your oranges. You're right, MSS aren't about the oranges, because MSS aren't needed against the oranges.
Guards manage by have a lot of sacrificial units. Tau manage by shooting and some ridiculous Overwatch. Necrons, unless they opt to go the flyer route, don't have a lot of anti-assault options, especially against the faster armies. In any case, my point isn't that Necrons can potentially beat a 300-pt Daemon Princes in combat. Rather, it is due to the opportunity cost that more than half of the time, Mindshackles are actually rather useless because many of the units that they do face are weaker infantry units in which MSS really doesn't make a difference.
But I understand that our viewpoints differ in this regard. That's fine. I'm pretty sure MSS will get nerfed heavily in the next edition anyways. My viewpoint is actually more conservative, but I'm afraid it's going to get hit even harder than that. Think Runes of Warding....
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/29 17:58:50
Thanks for the reply Jy2, I did think it was a slow army, I might fool around with bikes, drop pods or something to give the army a bit of reach.
I am still interested in trying the army as I do like a little thinking in my 40k, after playing gun line for a while I like some interesting strategy, which is the reason I play the game anyway
Check out my little ork story I am working on here!
roxor08 wrote: I think most people are forgetting how much misfortune swayed the game in his opponents favor. Forget prescience, forget forewarning, forget pretty much every psychic power he got except misfortune.
On a unit with 3++ which should SAVE wounds 2/3 of the time, now you're FAILING almost 3/4 of them.
This is what really screwed JY2. Yeah, maybe he sent the barges in closer right away, but I don't think that it would have outweighed the advantage Tim got with Misfortune.
Anyways, hard fought loss Jim. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the tournament and you dropping Crons for the Nids soon ;-)
Why drop Crons for Nids? Crons has the tools to put up a better fight here. Spyders with a gloom prison can give a 4+ save to all psychic and certainly slow the bleed out from misfortune.
Also, Death and Despairtek (via Nemesor Zandrekh Express Delivery Night Scythe) can be brutal against Death stars, bringing couple hundred ultra killy points against in some cases 900 or more points in these Deathstars.
JY2 brought a very solid all-around list and a list he knew how to pilot well and did indeed pilot very well but the meta had shifted so heavily to Psychic and Deathstar that the Double Wraithwing list that JY2 fielded needed some significant tweaks to bring the list up to date and compensate for the meta. That's my take on the match. This is also just echoing what JY2 said on page one of this thread, where he said that the West Coast players were bringing older competitive builds against the newer competitive builds brought by the East Coast players.
Actually, IMO the spyderstar would have done worse here. While they have defense against Misfortune, they can't do much against grav-weaponry which also ignored cover. He would have blown away the spyderstar in no time.
When I run bugs, it isn't really whether it would have done better or worse here (it would have most likely done worse). It would mainly be because I wanted a change in play-styles. Had my bugs actually been completed, it would have been almost a coin-flip with regards to which army I would have taken here to Adepticon.
I guess you are thinking Spyder Star would try to tackle Centstars or other Deathstars head on. I don't think that's necessarily the approach. The gutshot to pull off is to deploy a Deathmark(x5) and Despairtek(x2) killteam via Nightscythe 1" away from the Centstar, to punish the opponent from putting so many points into a single unit. Running Obyron means you can take a guerilla rather than head-on approach and keep your own Deathstar safe via teleport, even teleporting directly out of combat. Running Nemesor means you can get that Nightscythe anytime enemy reserves come on. What stops a Death and Despairtek team from wiping a good chunk of the Centstar and otherwise being a solid tool in such a Deathstar heavy field?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/29 23:48:04
2014/04/29 22:34:52
Subject: Re:Jy2 Goes to Adepticon (WARNING - Lots of Pics! Batrep Links on p.1, Game #4 on p.6)
jy2 wrote: Ok, after a brief hiatus, I'm happy to say that.....
....I'M BACK!
First off, let me wrap up Game #4 with my Post-game thoughts.
Game #4 Post-game Thoughts:
Spoiler:
Still to come....
I get in a pick-up game against Justin Cook's GT-winning O'vesastar.
And....
Team Roommates vs Team Zero Comp.
My roommate Stephen "Chancetragedy" and I, Jim "Jy2" pit our armies - Wraithwing Necrons and White Scars - against Team Zero Comp's "World's Greatest 40K Player" Frankie's GT-winning Venom-spam Dark Eldar/Eldar and "InControl" Geoff's FMC-spam Tyranids.
Great to have you back! I think I am going to sh*t myself this looks so good!! I really cant even describe how much I have wanted you to take on Justin. Playing the Frontline guys will be great too!
Sanguine Fist 
Lion's Claw
13000
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
I really cant even describe how much I have wanted you to take on Justin. Playing the Frontline guys will be great too!