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I find it really interesting that there are so many negative posts about GW [particularly in terms of pricing] but so few about Forge World, even though they're essentially the same company [profits go to the same place, Kirby has overall direction]. Lots of negativity about the cost of the Imperial Knight at £85, but then £60 for one model in terminator armour on a nice base [Horus] is seen as perfectly acceptable. In our heads do we see them as separate companies?

Because Forgeworld are a lot more creative with their output, and their sculpts are far better.

FW has always been 'premium 40k', so people are used to the exorbitant prices, and it's understood that FW things are all optional and extra goodies, not mandatory for play, like GW units. FW is icing on the cake, not the cake itself. The primarchs for example, are very much a collectors item, and they are presented as such.
Obviously they also do very quality work in their models and writing, which people are willing to pay more for. A lot of moves GW are making recently are very transparently money grabs. FW seems a lot more invested in it's craft as a model and rules/fluff studio.

And in a non-GW-esque kind of way, they listen to "us" and make the things we like.

It's also a sign of prestige to have FW items. Chicks dig Nurgle Greater Daemons of the FW variety.

Because FW makes better models, have relatively better writing and don't act like they have their heads up their butts.
FW is made of sculptors and writers, GW is made of lawyers and accountants

WarOne wrote:And in a non-GW-esque kind of way, they listen to "us" and make the things we like.

It's also a sign of prestige to have FW items. Chicks dig Nurgle Greater Daemons of the FW variety.

If you like Space Marines and Mechanicum... Plus, wasn't the Forge World Facebook page also pulled down?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Because FW makes better models, have relatively better writing and don't act like they have their heads up their butts.
FW is made of sculptors and writers, GW is made of lawyers and accountants

Again, they're the same company. Some of the sculptors [Trish something?] work for both.

Just find it interesting that some of the most fervent anti-GW people will defend FW up to the hilt. Wasn't it Forge World who made pretty much every superheavy usable in standard games of 40k?

They are indeed part of the same company. However their attitudes are very different.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

WarOne wrote:And in a non-GW-esque kind of way, they listen to "us" and make the things we like.

It's also a sign of prestige to have FW items. Chicks dig Nurgle Greater Daemons of the FW variety.

If you like Space Marines and Mechanicum... Plus, wasn't the Forge World Facebook page also pulled down?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Because FW makes better models, have relatively better writing and don't act like they have their heads up their butts.
FW is made of sculptors and writers, GW is made of lawyers and accountants

Again, they're the same company. Some of the sculptors [Trish something?] work for both.

Just find it interesting that some of the most fervent anti-GW people will defend FW up to the hilt. Wasn't it Forge World who made pretty much every superheavy usable in standard games of 40k?

to the bolded: Whats even wrong with that?
and no it was GW who wrote escalation, and even then..... adding the FW stuff ballances it out ALOT....

 -Loki- wrote:
Because Forgeworld are a lot more creative with their output, and their sculpts are far better.

More creative? Really? Maybe in the past but not now. All they can do is SM and not much else. Perfect example is the Tyranids twin linked devourers. It's a knock off on a conversion. Nothing original there.

After 10 years (that I know of, they could be longer) is when I think of FW, it's SM, SM SM, some IG, and more SM. Maybe that is why they can do SM good, it's what they do 80% of the time.

I'm personally a fan of Escalation, but there are a huge amount of posts from people that aren't, with all of the vitriol directed at GW. GW introduced Escalation, FW made it even bigger. Also, FW were the first to allow use of superheavies in 'standard' games of 40k with their Lord of War slots, but seemingly avoided any criticism.

Excellent marketing in my opinion - GW have convinced us that they are two separate entities and justify prices with a premium product USP. IMO that's why they did not merge the FW and GW sites.

Except FW restricted the use of SHV in 40k to games larger than 2000 points. Escalation did not make such a restriction.
The IA books even said that it's not a good idea to use them "wily-nily", indicating that FW team were at least aware of the impact that SHV would have on the game.

This was also at a time when you could take invul saves against Titan Killers.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Except FW restricted the use of SHV in 40k to games larger than 2000 points. Escalation did not make such a restriction.
The IA books even said that it's not a good idea to use them "wily-nily", indicating that FW team were at least aware of the impact that SHV would have on the game.

This was also at a time when you could take invul saves against Titan Killers.

Isn't Escalation also 0-1 for superheavies, showing that GW also realises they should be restricted? Also, it's unlikely that you will see superheavies in smaller games anyway.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Except FW restricted the use of SHV in 40k to games larger than 2000 points. Escalation did not make such a restriction.
The IA books even said that it's not a good idea to use them "wily-nily", indicating that FW team were at least aware of the impact that SHV would have on the game.

This was also at a time when you could take invul saves against Titan Killers.

Isn't Escalation also 0-1 for superheavies, showing that GW also realises they should be restricted? Also, it's unlikely that you will see superheavies in smaller games anyway.

No points restriction. You can use a revenant titan or baneblade under 2000. Having a 0-1 restriction is pointless when all it takes is 1 SHV with D weapons.
It is quite likely to see SHVs in smaller games. Just look at knights. Just under 400 points.

And as I said before, the SHV allowances were written at a time when D weapons could be defended against, and when SHV could be crippled, as opposed to today, where they just keep going until they blow up.

Forgeworld is the spirit stone that holds what remains of Games Workshop's soul

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Forgeworld is the spirit stone that contains what remains of Games Workshop's soul

Heh, I suppose that's one way of putting it.

Well, three things.

1.) We expect forgeworld to be an expensive luxury that only some people can afford while we expect citadel miniatures to be a basic human right. GW can't put out expensive minis for everyone else without it being class warfare that we need to take up arms against (literally if some people's levels of bile are to be believed).

2.) Only certain people buy forgeworld. That is, you're going to get fewer complaints because there are just fewer people. Also, those people who do are more likely to have made it a conscious choice because they're not "forced" to buy forgeworld unlike some plastics from citadel.

3.) Only certain people buy forgeworld. The kinds of people who buy forgeworld tend to either be people who want to win games, and are looking for any advantage (buying sabre platforms, etc. etc. etc.), and so want the game to be imbalanced so that they can exploit this fact to win, or they are people who just want really pretty models, and whether or not they're balanced doesn't matter, as it doesn't effect the prettiness of the models.

As such, one of the main things that people complain about regular GW stuff is something that the people who buy forgeworld are just less likely to care about, so there will be less complaining.

simply put, it is less fashionable to complain about Forge World.

Forge World lets you know what's coming down the pipe. They seem to still have a love for the hobby. They provide FAQs and rule updates to keep things working.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
I'm personally a fan of Escalation, but there are a huge amount of posts from people that aren't, with all of the vitriol directed at GW. GW introduced Escalation, FW made it even bigger. Also, FW were the first to allow use of superheavies in 'standard' games of 40k with their Lord of War slots, but seemingly avoided any criticism.

Excellent marketing in my opinion - GW have convinced us that they are two separate entities and justify prices with a premium product USP. IMO that's why they did not merge the FW and GW sites.

FW made nearly all of it's superheavies long before Escalation was a word on anyone's lips.

FW made it's units expecting them to be balanced in the context of apocalypse (for a given definition of balance), not in the context of normal 40k. So it's really GW's fault for taking units meant to be played in much bigger, FoCless games where counters for superheavies are in ample supply and putting them in regular 40k.

 viewfinder wrote:
simply put, it is less fashionable to complain about Forge World.

Way way off with a ridiculous oversimplification. But thanks for playing.

 viewfinder wrote:
simply put, it is less fashionable to complain about Forge World.

Tilting at windmills to defend a peasant girl's honor I see?

(If anyone gets this reference I will be pleased mightily)

 Kain wrote:

 viewfinder wrote:
simply put, it is less fashionable to complain about Forge World.

Tilting at windmills to defend a peasant girl's honor I see?

(If anyone gets this reference I will be pleased mightily)

Oh, come on. This forum is full of adults as well as kids. Of course some of us have read Don Quixote.

I buy regularly from Forgeworld. The quality is really high.

"Whay are there so few complains about FW?" Because, while being expensive, they do a great job.
Good quality, high price -> OK.
Low quality, high price -> Not OK.

For a fluffy player like me, reading, say, "Horus Heresy II: Massacre" is like going through a tsunami or orgasmic pleassure. So I don´t complain
On the other side, when I read the fluff they put nowadays in the Supplements or in the Dataslates, I feel sad, I feel cheated, I feel annoyed at people without any talent defiling something I love. So I complain.

Easy

 Ailaros wrote:
(...)
3.) Only certain people buy forgeworld. The kinds of people who buy forgeworld tend to either be people who want to win games, and are looking for any advantage (buying sabre platforms, etc. etc. etc.), and so want the game to be imbalanced so that they can exploit this fact to win, or they are people who just want really pretty models, and whether or not they're balanced doesn't matter, as it doesn't effect the prettiness of the models.

You forgot the background.
I am mostly a background / fluffy player, and lack of balance kill the fun for me. My genestealer-heavy nids or my no-heldrake csms are no match for competitive lists.

Most of the stuff I buy from FW are books. And not for the rules. And if I buy a model, it is because it looks really good.

Forgeworld is just on another level concerning fluff and models. They are awful at rules, though, with glaring mistakes showing a total lack of interest on balance and even basic play-testing.

Well, its the much better (sub-) company. More creative, better models and rules.

 Kain wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
I'm personally a fan of Escalation, but there are a huge amount of posts from people that aren't, with all of the vitriol directed at GW. GW introduced Escalation, FW made it even bigger. Also, FW were the first to allow use of superheavies in 'standard' games of 40k with their Lord of War slots, but seemingly avoided any criticism.

Excellent marketing in my opinion - GW have convinced us that they are two separate entities and justify prices with a premium product USP. IMO that's why they did not merge the FW and GW sites.

FW made nearly all of it's superheavies long before Escalation was a word on anyone's lips.

FW made it's units expecting them to be balanced in the context of apocalypse (for a given definition of balance), not in the context of normal 40k. So it's really GW's fault for taking units meant to be played in much bigger, FoCless games where counters for superheavies are in ample supply and putting them in regular 40k.

Actually, in the Index of the old (as in, pres-escalation) IA books, they do indeed allow you to field SHV in normal games. But only if the game is more 2000pts, and this was at a time when SHVs could be crippled and when D weapons could be saved against.

Hell. I haven't read Don Quixote and I get the reference!

Then again, the other half used to quite Kys at me frequently. ><

Others have made good points, another I feel needs mentioning is that FW also covers niches that GW does not, and that scratches some fan itches in the right way.

FW also will take over many former GW unitsto enable their continued use (such as the Griffon which was a GW unit in 2E and 3E, went to FW at the end of 3E, came back to GW rules in 5E and back to FW in 6E).

Clearly there's a lot of love for Forge World products [myself included] so surely GW should get the credit for this? Forge World is essentially a brand of GW's [their premium brand]. If you love the models and books, then the credit belongs to the parent company, which is GW.

Because FW provides a customer service that, despite GW not because of them, is on par with what is to be believed as a premium product.

We get books worth their value (many IA/HH game books could crush small woodlen animals at a fair price), we get FREE rules, rules are openly tested under the "experimental" program, and the model quality, while not as flexible as GW plastic kits, is much higher in level of detail.

Yes, they cater less to the non-Imperium forces, but when they do, it's still gorgeous usually.

GW is the core; they write the main rules, provide the main product, and are the main contributors to heart burn in the community. Metal to resin with price increase, no FAQs, no free/experimental rules, less communication, and a lower quality of product. FW isn't actually that much more expensive these days depending on conversion rate and location these days to boot.

Since they are managed separate, non of the credit goes to GW. It's the same in many other larger companies... Sony Motion Picture Studios has nothing to do with their Games Division, Television Products, or Record Label. The best thing we can say about GW's involvement in FW is that they let them be their own entity.

GW is a terrible business when compared to their competitors. They are also a terrible business when compared to their internal sister organization. The "hate" is well leveled at the appropriate target.

Because most of the reasonable complains about GW are about things that Forgeworld hasn't done (yet):

1. Supplements - Which in quality have varied widely (with the consensus mostly being, okay-ish but overcosted)
2. Dataslates - The micro transactions of the Tabletop world
3. Lack of support for their game systems - FW puts up FAQ's, Updates and experimental rules comparitively often


The things that allready have been said about FW consumerbase make sense too.