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My main army is the Tau. I love the look of their units which is why I got them. But their fluff I just find so... offensive. Nothing bad ever happens to them. They are seemingly perfect in every way imaginable. Beat both a massed Tyranid hive fleet and then an Imperial Fleet are no problems at all. Yet in other sources an Imperial fleet like that is a credible threat to a Craftworld and other empires. For the Tau it is a light exercise. While I will continue to play them, I hope in later editions they are either greatly reduced in numbers and victories or out right gone by the Tyranids. That would please me immensely.

Well,the problem is,the Tau can't afford losing.
If the Tau get a major loss in the fluff,they're gone,that's how small their empire is.
As such,it's nearly impossible for them to lose,especially against the nids,that'd be worst case scenario for them,they'd be utterly wiped out.
They've kinda got the ultimate plot armor,they can only lose badly while attacking

We can get a major loss and lose a sphere of expansion, as soon as GW finally remembers the worldwide campaign results and lets Chaos completely overrun Cadia and start storming across the galaxy towards Terra.

On a galactic scale, the Tau Empire is like the city of Des Moines, Iowa compared to the entire North American continent.

The Tau losing even a small part of their ridiculously-tiny empire is a very crushing blow.

The difference in the fluff is the Imperium loses hundreds of worlds almost daily to different foes. They burn entire worlds to keep the Tyranids in check and yet a small Tau fleet can eliminate an entire hive fleet with no loses? The Imperium has one of the largest military forces and the Tau can fight them to a complete standstill.

In the Space Marine codex and Imperial guard they suffer horrendous defeats all the time. Entire fleets get eliminated and billions die. The Tau should have been dealt defeats by now. I would pay for GW to write in catastrophic loses for the Tau. And this is an army that I started with.

Well, yes, that's true. The Tau are presented as somehow having miraculous levels of warfare ability against enemies many hundreds of times their size. Mostly why the Tau still exist is due to deus ex machinas... or, rather, Xenos ex machinas. If it were not for the Tyranid invading, the Damocles Gulf Crusade would have continued and, eventually, they would have been destroyed.

Guerrilla-style warfare is all well and good, but it's slow as feth in defeating an enemy that is determined to destroy you.

There are defeats for the Tau. Damocles Gulf saw the Tau suffer great losses and pushed out of several worlds. Farsight suffers terrible losses against Orks and Chaos in his codex. The Warzone Damocles book apparently includes Shadowsun walking into a trap of the Imperium's making and barely escaping alive.

The thing is that the Tau have been able to avoid final anhilation from these defeats. They then absorb the lessons of what happened, learn from them, and come back for more victories.

 Psienesis wrote:
If it were not for the Tyranid invading, the Damocles Gulf Crusade would have continued and, eventually, they would have been destroyed.

This, I think, reflects a shift I've noticed in the tone of the setting. This is not the pre-Heresy Imperium, storming across the universe wiping out hostile aliens left and right, and yet at some point between 3e and 6e the Imperium has gone from being constantly under attack from a multitude of enemies and barely holding on to what they already had, to a force that was described in the write up of the Damocles book as 'the dominant power of the galaxy.'

(I say at some point between 3e and 6e as I'm less familiar with the tone of the fluff during 4e and 5e. As far as I can tell though this seems to be a shift since 6e.)

The Imperium should not be in a position to wipe out any interstellar power. Not now. Not the crumbling remnants of humanity teetering on the edge of oblivion in the fading light of their dying God-Emperor.

Dominate power of the galaxy doesn't mean it's not crumbling, rotten from the inside out. They have the largest fleets and trillions of troops. Hundreds of thousands of Space Marines. Could still hunt down an alien species near their territory.

What HoskuneAstetic said.

The Imperium *is* the 500-pound gorilla in the room. Against any one, single faction of the array of Xenos and Chaos, the Imperium would bury them. They either out-number or out-dakka any single other faction (including the Necrons, who are less-unified than even the Imperium) and, afforded the opportunity to bring the totality of their military might to bear, the Imperium could simply End any other single faction.

However, the setting being what it is, the Imperium will never, ever have this chance.

Sometimes I wish the setting wasn't so grim dark and actually give humanity a chance there would be no contest.

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
Sometimes I wish the setting wasn't so grim dark and actually give humanity a chance there would be no contest.

Yeah... but what what'd be the fun of Peacehammer 40k? You could paint Space Marines playing cards and visiting the zoo, since all of the threats to the galaxy have been wiped out.

If you're wanting to do something fun and grimdark with the Tau, maybe the next story advance for them (after the 3rd Expansion) would be, maybe, the theory about them being engineered by the Eldar true- instantly, all Tau become psykers and their society goes completely haywire because of it.

It's rather silly to hate on the Tau for their good track-record considering that this is a Universe that has Necrons in it.

Tau fluff is fine.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's rather silly to hate on the Tau for their good track-record considering that this is a Universe that has Necrons in it.

Tau fluff is fine.

Yep. The Fall of Orpheus is the one FW book who's fluff I dislike. Turns the Necrons into an uber-super-duper-awesome we can't lose mega army.

Damocles Gulf Crusade was in many ways the perfect example of how I think 40k fluff should be.

The Imperium could easily crush the Tau empire like a bug, if they could actually secure a moment's peace from the thousands of other threats facing them/annoying alien species nipping at their heels and get their gak together long enough to actually muster a reasonable force. The Tau on the other hand haven't gotten big enough/been around long enough for the rot to set in. They are still growing. Eventually they will stall out too and bad stuff will happen to them. It's not exactly like they're all about peace love and tolerance either... They're basically space North Korea with a bigger defense budget.

 Jinx Magiga wrote:
Well,the problem is,the Tau can't afford losing.
If the Tau get a major loss in the fluff,they're gone,that's how small their empire is.
As such,it's nearly impossible for them to lose,especially against the nids,that'd be worst case scenario for them,they'd be utterly wiped out.
They've kinda got the ultimate plot armor,they can only lose badly while attacking

I disagree. I think that the Tau empire is small compared to others, but they just don't have strength in numbers, but rely on the exceptional skill of the Earth Caste to make the best technologically possible weaponry. The Tau would not be wiped out by just loosing a major battle, I don't think that the space pope would go all in and throw the whole army in (this never happens in the fluff).

Why would Nids be the worst case scenario? Personally, I think that they would be easier. You send some Crisis suits that have Melta/Plas to go and do as much damage as possible to the big guys that aren't flying, and then take Bursttides for the bid flying baddies, and Iontides for the hordes. It wouldn't be easy, but IMO it wouldn't be hard by any means.

Take this post with a grain of salt. I am no Nids expert, just IMO

It's the fact those Tau will win when if that same amount of Tyranids invaded the Imperium they would suffer terrible losses. Lose ancient ships and irreplaceable technology. Probably burn a world or two. Yet the Tau do it with absolutely no loss of ships. I find their lack of defeats to be counter to the grim dark setting of 40k.

The Necrons should pose a credible threat as they are millions upon millions of years older than every other species. Even predating the Chaos Gods before the Empyrean was the realm of Chaos they fought the Old Ones. They are that darkness between suns.

I would also settle for the Tau homeworld to contain a Necron crypt that wakes up and harvests most of the species. That would please me too. I just find their invincible plot armor terrible.

I wouldn't mind if the Tau disappeared for good. >---->

I also have no problem with the Necrons being incredibly tough. I view them as a Borg type. Very hard but can be put down with enough concentrated firepower.

Also, they are MILLIONS of years older than everyone else. That is a crazy long time to be space faring before others have even evolved!

This isn't without historical precedence. Look at Switzerland or the Hussites. Small but fierce little nations that took on odds far greater than they had any right to. Their slow expansion also helps them in that they consolidate stronger in the systems they do take instead of setting up a pre-fab colony and forgetting about the place for a thousand years like the Imperium does.
Don't hate the Tau for being awesome. It's not unrealistic.
Now, the Grey Knights on the other hand, their fluff is just 12 year old...no, 9 year old fan fic level of quality.


Hussites.
http://minimumwagehistorian.com/2011/11/01/hussites-religeous-rebels-with-guns/

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
Sometimes I wish the setting wasn't so grim dark and actually give humanity a chance there would be no contest.

Humanity is dead.
The Emperor failed to build his empire and now it crumbles from without and within. The world of 40k is populated by the twitching corpses of the greatest civilisations in the galaxy come to ruin. Frankly it is wonderful that way, I wish it was darker. If it makes you feel better regarding Tau, they are trying to build an empire in a galaxy about to end.

That said looking at some of the timelines of the Imperium it is easily possible they will lose a lot of territory and hold only their key strongpoints before rebounding and retaking all their lost territory. You just have to think in centuries and millennia.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's rather silly to hate on the Tau for their good track-record considering that this is a Universe that has Necrons in it.

Tau fluff is fine.

Yep. The Fall of Orpheus is the one FW book who's fluff I dislike. Turns the Necrons into an uber-super-duper-awesome we can't lose mega army.

Kind of like their fluff from the 3rd edition codex.

I think that the Imperium can best be compared to the Byzantine Empire. For the early medieval period, it was still a super power, vast armies and areas of land were under it's control, but it stagnated, there was little change in tactics or innovation like with the Catholic Kingdoms of the West and the Muslims in the East. They thought that they were the rightful inheritors of the Roman Empire, that the Empire would always endure, these new Kingdoms mere upstarts and the Seljuk hordes a bunch of savages. But bit by bit, loss after loss, the Empire was chipped away, until eventually it had it's heart tore out by the Turks and collapsed.

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
It's the fact those Tau will win when if that same amount of Tyranids invaded the Imperium they would suffer terrible losses. Lose ancient ships and irreplaceable technology. Probably burn a world or two. Yet the Tau do it with absolutely no loss of ships. I find their lack of defeats to be counter to the grim dark setting of 40k.

The Necrons should pose a credible threat as they are millions upon millions of years older than every other species. Even predating the Chaos Gods before the Empyrean was the realm of Chaos they fought the Old Ones. They are that darkness between suns.

I would also settle for the Tau homeworld to contain a Necron crypt that wakes up and harvests most of the species. That would please me too. I just find their invincible plot armor terrible.

Something like the Maynarkh Awakening near the Tau would probably be their worst case scenario.

Fluffwise, I can't recall a single engagement between the Tau and the Necrons, that the Tau won. Granted, there is not a lot of battles between these two.

Necrons are pretty much their worst nightmare. They outclass them in every way. The Sautekh dynasty alone has conquered more worlds than the entire Tau Empire, in 200 years. (I'm pretty sure of this, The Sautekh has 80 tomb worlds and 5 times as many alien worlds, to amount nearly 500 planets under it's command).

If impirium was not fighting 1000+ conflicts at anyone time, vs a miriad of foes. Yes they could flatten the tau with sheer colossal mass of men, ships and machines as well as entire titan legions.

But there spread thin across massive areas, not a concentrated force.

Not to mention the structure of the Imperium works against the collaboration of it's various branches. Worst of all, this is intentional.

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
My main army is the Tau. I love the look of their units which is why I got them. But their fluff I just find so... offensive. Nothing bad ever happens to them. They are seemingly perfect in every way imaginable. Beat both a massed Tyranid hive fleet and then an Imperial Fleet are no problems at all. Yet in other sources an Imperial fleet like that is a credible threat to a Craftworld and other empires. For the Tau it is a light exercise. While I will continue to play them, I hope in later editions they are either greatly reduced in numbers and victories or out right gone by the Tyranids. That would please me immensely.

The Dark Eldar found the Tau very vey amusing provding suitable genetic material for experminatation and well fun.............the Tau came off very badly in that encounter (unless its been chnaged in the new Codex)

Jefffar wrote:
Not to mention the structure of the Imperium works against the collaboration of it's various branches. Worst of all, this is intentional.

It's less intentional and more incidental.
You can't have it united under one leader otherwise he'll go bonkers/corrupted and wreak havoc (Bucharis and that other chappie who went mental)
You need it decentralised and you also need everyone to watch each other.
Make no mistake. Chaos is the enemy.
The fact that is makes collaboration difficult is more of an unfortunate side-effect. Something which, ironically enough, is rectified somewhat by the fact the Imperium shares a common faith in the Emperor.

Is their plot armor ever explained why they beat every enemy without practically trying that would give other races pause?

A hive fleet invaded Iyanden, the Eldar are millions of years old with technology far out performing anything of the younger races and the hive fleet all but gutted that craftworld.

HoskuneAstetic wrote:
Is their plot armor ever explained why they beat every enemy without practically trying that would give other races pause?

A hive fleet invaded Iyanden, the Eldar are millions of years old with technology far out performing anything of the younger races and the hive fleet all but gutted that craftworld.

Actully, the tau had quite a bit of trouble with the tyranids, but managed to beat them because they (they tau) kept swtiching tactics and tech to confuse the tyranids. A few imperial ships also suddenly poped out of the wrap (they should have been there a while ago while the Imperium was fighting tau, but hey) and that helps the tau because it was harder for the 'nids to adapt to two different armies.