Ailaros wrote:
You can't charge a unit you can't hurt, and you can't stay in close combat against one you can't hurt either.

And you can't just keep that one meltagun guy at the very back of the squad either. Not without tripping the above rule.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You can't charge a unit you can't hurt, and you can't stay in close combat against one you can't hurt either.

And you can't just keep that one meltagun guy at the very back of the squad either. Not without tripping the above rule.

Incorrect on two accounts... Pg 4 of the BRB FAQ, you can charge units you cannot hurt.

I don't have the page, but the "Our Weapons Are Useless!" is not mandatory. It's an optional elect.

Mavnas wrote:You can't order tanks to ignore cover, you can only give them the tank specific orders.

Ailaros wrote:A pask punisher is only 240 points. If you're going to talk about all those extra points, you have to also talk about all the extra stuff you get for them.

What we're talking about is taking pask for a tank. We're only talking about what pask does, which means we should be talking about 70 points here.

70 points to take a punisher and make it rending and give it precise shot along with BS4 and preferred enemy. That's a hell of an upgrade.

zoat wrote:
I don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but the wording is that "The Tank Commander's tank is a character...."

So the precision shot thingy is not limited to Pask or the main gun for that matter.

Also this would imply that the Tank Commander's tank gets a 4+ "Look out sir" making Tank Commander's tank rather hard to kill.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
So, the pask punisher has a 50% chance to stick a lascannon or a multimelta shot on the model of his choice (which will probably wound, and ignores armor). Then, on top of that, he puts down slightly over 3 more precise shots with the gatling gun, which means another 50% chance for an Ap2 shot that this time DOES auto-wound.

That means, on average, you should expect to put one Ap2 wound on the model of your choice, with a roughly even chance of doing it twice as not at all. Plus, you also will usually get another two S5 Ap- hits on the model of your choice as well, including that huge pile of hits and wound which will allow you to pick out "hidden" stuff with just wound allocation.

On a tank that's already good against everything.

And the only cost is being forced to take another leman russ to put him with. Boo hoo.

Big whoop. You spent 400+ points and you seriously are nit picking over precision shots? When I buy a dedicated shooter for over 400 points,

We're talking about two tanks here, not one. And precision shots are a bonus, if the unit is massive, or has exceptional defensive bonuses, the precision shots are a winner.

it had better wipe its target out, if its not then its a failure from the word go.

The combined fire of two Leman Russes, if with reasonable luck, will definitely give a target a grilling that will on a fair number of occasions give a wipe, or near wipe. And your idea here is for the most part false. Model for model, you are getting a very reasonable amount of firepower for cost.

You should not treat 40k as a game where 400 points = Guaranteed unit wipe insurance. You should consider the benefits and pro's of each choice, not whether they can tick one box.

If it's last turn and you can't wipe scoring bodies off that objective you have done something horribly wrong.

State-the-obvious theoryhammer like this is completely pointless. This is a flaw of your own strategy before your army list predominantly unless your list is garbage, which it certainly is not because Pask is included.

I honestly think your way better off just taking a bog standard squadron and giving it prescience and orders to suit.

A Primaris for 50 gives you re-rolls to hit. Pask for 70 gives a tank BS4, twinlinks and gives specific USR's to himself and gives preferred enemy to his entire squadron (re-roll to hit's and wounds, extremely helpful for squad wiping with re-roll's on 2+'s) if the Warlord. In addition, if you don't need orders particularly, you're getting more efficiency out of your points.

A loaded vanquisher is 165, with TL and orders for tank hunting or cover striping or heck why not both, you can easily cripple if not destroy that paskisher turn 1.

Those orders are infantry exclusive. The minimum you need to twinlink a Vanquisher is 185, and that's just one TL BS3 S8 AP2 2d6 pen shot - in short, garbage. Pask gets tank hunter, twinlinked and BS4 on his Vanquisher for 205.

If he has a blocker then he is that much further back and you'll get another go at him anyway since he is further back

Are we trying to think while typing? This makes very limited sense. At most he's 6'' back, which only makes a difference if he has a punisher - and you can instead just be 1-2'' back, or get an extra squadron member.

and his range isn't awesome.

His range varies greatly.

Hes cool, but he is not broken at his cost. In fact the only tank he really buffs is the punisher. because your going to want to prescience your russes either way, ie. his squadron mates which makes his tank buff for all the others redundant.

This is complete toss. Presciencing Russes is nice but far from mandatory are not always practical, especially if your build uses the PP's somewhere else, and there is a point where investing in support characters becomes detrimental.

He buffs the Vanquisher considerably, making it far more reliable with the penetrate re-roll, and he also buffs the sponsons/hull Lascannon too. The Executioner is quite interesting, because he gives built in anti-gets hot insurance for his entire squadron, and a blind pie plate that can nerf low init infantry like Firewarriors, Guardsmen, Cultists and even on a 1/3 chance Marines into the ground with BS1.

He gives all members of the squadron, if your warlord, re-rolls to wound (period on most variants with 2+ to wound sort of guns) of a 1, which no psychic power can grant. Besides, giving double, or up to a third more movement for a turn, split-fire for more autonomous tanks, or a 5+/4+ cover for a turn even out in the open after firing at a critical moment is also exclusive to tank commanders.

Since you want to run him in a punisher 99% of the time, he needs to constantly use his fire+flat out order

[colour=red]This is a complete theoryhammer fallacy. You probably won't even need to use it once if you didn't put Pask in a poor position, at most you'll need to use it once.[/color]

This also means he won't have bubble wrap that can keep up with him,

Chimeras, Hellhound variants, Move-Move-Move'ing infantry, you're not exactly without options. Plus, you don't need to move the full distance.

meaning DS melta will chew through him, or you stay somewhere safe and don't earn your keep.

You say this like DS Melta is common outside of drop pods, in which case laugh as you roll onto the board turn 2 and wipe his pitifully overpriced Marines off the board - and drop pod armies like this aren't even commonly competitive or seen either. You're just taking the worst case doomsday scenario and pretending that the person using the unit is completely incompetent. There are simple ways to mitigate DS AT for sure that you can pull.

I am not saying he is bad,

No no no. You don't get to write scathing criticism without praise and claim this. You effectively called the build a failure.

but he is situational, and very expensive, to the point where you will need to model a list around him.

Not really. Its more a case of whether he fits the list better than a CCS or Lord Commissar. Besides, modelling your list around your strategy should always be done anyway.

Because of these reasons he is in no way close to broken.

He is close to broken in a Punisher with his ability to massacre infantry and destroy all but the heaviest tanks, but not quite.

 Red Corsair wrote:
You really need to figure out how to quote better because I refuse to even read your posts anymore. I am sure you made some decent points in there, I just refuse to fish for them.

edit, maybe just cut and paste your rebuttal under the quote box.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
So, the pask punisher has a 50% chance to stick a lascannon or a multimelta shot on the model of his choice (which will probably wound, and ignores armor). Then, on top of that, he puts down slightly over 3 more precise shots with the gatling gun, which means another 50% chance for an Ap2 shot that this time DOES auto-wound.

That means, on average, you should expect to put one Ap2 wound on the model of your choice, with a roughly even chance of doing it twice as not at all. Plus, you also will usually get another two S5 Ap- hits on the model of your choice as well, including that huge pile of hits and wound which will allow you to pick out "hidden" stuff with just wound allocation.

On a tank that's already good against everything.

And the only cost is being forced to take another leman russ to put him with. Boo hoo.

Big whoop. You spent 400+ points and you seriously are nit picking over precision shots? When I buy a dedicated shooter for over 400 points,

We're talking about two tanks here, not one. And precision shots are a bonus, if the unit is massive, or has exceptional defensive bonuses, the precision shots are a winner.

it had better wipe its target out, if its not then its a failure from the word go.

The combined fire of two Leman Russes, if with reasonable luck, will definitely give a target a grilling that will on a fair number of occasions give a wipe, or near wipe. And your idea here is for the most part false. Model for model, you are getting a very reasonable amount of firepower for cost.

You should not treat 40k as a game where 400 points = Guaranteed unit wipe insurance. You should consider the benefits and pro's of each choice, not whether they can tick one box.

If it's last turn and you can't wipe scoring bodies off that objective you have done something horribly wrong.

State-the-obvious theoryhammer like this is completely pointless. This is a flaw of your own strategy before your army list predominantly unless your list is garbage, which it certainly is not because Pask is included.

I honestly think your way better off just taking a bog standard squadron and giving it prescience and orders to suit.

A Primaris for 50 gives you re-rolls to hit. Pask for 70 gives a tank BS4, twinlinks and gives specific USR's to himself and gives preferred enemy to his entire squadron (re-roll to hit's and wounds, extremely helpful for squad wiping with re-roll's on 2+'s) if the Warlord. In addition, if you don't need orders particularly, you're getting more efficiency out of your points.

A loaded vanquisher is 165, with TL and orders for tank hunting or cover striping or heck why not both, you can easily cripple if not destroy that paskisher turn 1.

Those orders are infantry exclusive. The minimum you need to twinlink a Vanquisher is 185, and that's just one TL BS3 S8 AP2 2d6 pen shot - in short, garbage. Pask gets tank hunter, twinlinked and BS4 on his Vanquisher for 205.

If he has a blocker then he is that much further back and you'll get another go at him anyway since he is further back

Are we trying to think while typing? This makes very limited sense. At most he's 6'' back, which only makes a difference if he has a punisher - and you can instead just be 1-2'' back, or get an extra squadron member.

and his range isn't awesome.

His range varies greatly.

Hes cool, but he is not broken at his cost. In fact the only tank he really buffs is the punisher. because your going to want to prescience your russes either way, ie. his squadron mates which makes his tank buff for all the others redundant.

This is complete toss. Presciencing Russes is nice but far from mandatory are not always practical, especially if your build uses the PP's somewhere else, and there is a point where investing in support characters becomes detrimental.

He buffs the Vanquisher considerably, making it far more reliable with the penetrate re-roll, and he also buffs the sponsons/hull Lascannon too. The Executioner is quite interesting, because he gives built in anti-gets hot insurance for his entire squadron, and a blind pie plate that can nerf low init infantry like Firewarriors, Guardsmen, Cultists and even on a 1/3 chance Marines into the ground with BS1.

He gives all members of the squadron, if your warlord, re-rolls to wound (period on most variants with 2+ to wound sort of guns) of a 1, which no psychic power can grant. Besides, giving double, or up to a third more movement for a turn, split-fire for more autonomous tanks, or a 5+/4+ cover for a turn even out in the open after firing at a critical moment is also exclusive to tank commanders.

Since you want to run him in a punisher 99% of the time, he needs to constantly use his fire+flat out order

This is a complete theoryhammer fallacy. You probably won't even need to use it once if you didn't put Pask in a poor position, at most you'll need to use it once.[/color]

This also means he won't have bubble wrap that can keep up with him,

Chimeras, Hellhound variants, Move-Move-Move'ing infantry, you're not exactly without options. Plus, you don't need to move the full distance.

meaning DS melta will chew through him, or you stay somewhere safe and don't earn your keep.

You say this like DS Melta is common outside of drop pods, in which case laugh as you roll onto the board turn 2 and wipe his pitifully overpriced Marines off the board - and drop pod armies like this aren't even commonly competitive or seen either. You're just taking the worst case doomsday scenario and pretending that the person using the unit is completely incompetent. There are simple ways to mitigate DS AT for sure that you can pull.

I am not saying he is bad,

No no no. You don't get to write scathing criticism without praise and claim this. You effectively called the build a failure.

but he is situational, and very expensive, to the point where you will need to model a list around him.

Not really. Its more a case of whether he fits the list better than a CCS or Lord Commissar. Besides, modelling your list around your strategy should always be done anyway.

Because of these reasons he is in no way close to broken.

He is close to broken in a Punisher with his ability to massacre infantry and destroy all but the heaviest tanks, but not quite.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
You really need to figure out how to quote better because I refuse to even read your posts anymore. I am sure you made some decent points in there, I just refuse to fish for them.

edit, maybe just cut and paste your rebuttal under the quote box.

Even different colours would be a huge step.

It'd be better if he just figured out how to block off each line he was responding to.

As it is, its just awful to read, I agree.

Chimeras, Hellhound variants, Move-Move-Move'ing infantry, you're not exactly without options. Plus, you don't need to move the full distance.

No no no. You don't get to write scathing criticism without praise and claim this. You effectively called the build a failure.

Mavnas wrote:

Chimeras, Hellhound variants, Move-Move-Move'ing infantry, you're not exactly without options. Plus, you don't need to move the full distance.

Move, move, move doesn't give you 12+d6.

6'' move, plus a high chance of rolling at least one 6, and you don't need to move the full distance with the tanks.

At that point he's either outrunning his bubble wrap

Well, uh, don't go the extra inch?

or it's thinning out to the point where it can be shot through reasonably effectively.

At which point you immediately trigger Strike and Shroud. Unless you just drove your tank formation to a place where they're in excessive DS AT risk on turn 1/2 or in risk of being charged, in which case, you should probably rethink your strategy. A teeny bit.

Besides, any turn where you have to give that order is a turn you've lost his whole squad's shooting. If you do this more than once in what turns into a 5 turn game...

You won't do it more than once unless your positioning at the beginning of the game was exceptionally, laughably poor, you have zero patience and aren't using your sponsons.

No no no. You don't get to write scathing criticism without praise and claim this. You effectively called the build a failure.

Have you been reading the part of the thread where I was talking about how awesome he is at being able to pick any target that's within range, and probably murder it (well not so much with a CM with Shield Eternal)? All, I'm saying is he isn't an instant I-Win choice.

I was quoting Red Corsair's post, not yours.

 Ailaros wrote:
In any case, talking about carrier cost when just looking at an upgrade is pointless.

It would be like saying that it's a bad idea to give a las/plas executioner squad a heavy stubber, because you're spending 590 points for a S4 Ap6 heavy 3 weapon.

zoat wrote:
I don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but the wording is that "The Tank Commander's tank is a character...."

So the precision shot thingy is not limited to Pask or the main gun for that matter.

Also this would imply that the Tank Commander's tank gets a 4+ "Look out sir" making Tank Commander's tank rather hard to kill.

No no no. You don't get to write scathing criticism without praise and claim this. You effectively called the build a failure.

 tomjoad wrote:


Not to get into the semantics of whether or not pg 4 applies to walkers, I'll point out that, at the least, many tournaments are reading this the same way as Ailaros is, and tourney FAQs are the best source we have to go on for a lot of these issues.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
You really need to figure out how to quote better because I refuse to even read your posts anymore. I am sure you made some decent points in there, I just refuse to fish for them.

edit, maybe just cut and paste your rebuttal under the quote box.

Even different colours would be a huge step.

It'd be better if he just figured out how to block off each line he was responding to.

As it is, its just awful to read, I agree.

Please don't refer to me in the third person when I'm literally 2 posts above. It's awfully rude.

Whinge whinge whinge. If I take the time to answer each and every point precisely someone should spare the extra few seconds to find it, or better yet, discover the magical properties of that which is known as the drag and drop highlight one can use with the mouse.




See. Magic.

But nonetheless, I have now coloured my responses.

 Leth wrote:
Then take something else lol.

Are we complaining that someone elses dex doesnt let me conveniently take what I want as allies?

 daedalus wrote:

- Priests have waaay too gakky of leadership to be something you can depend on in melee.
- We were given cool new characters that dole out fearless and prescience and cool stuff like that, but we didn't get the point reduction that SM and other armies got to actually be able to USE those things without cutting anything else.
- Pask is probably too expensive for 1500 points.
- Hybrid lists probably can't work sub-2000 points, and probably aren't viable period. If you are running any chimeras, I just feel like you need to overwhelm target priority with so much AV12 that it can't all be stopped.

 Red Corsair wrote:
You still get to use the highest LD in the unit. Only psychic checks specify that the psycher must use his base LD. So if you have a commissar or PP in the unit he tests on a 9 RAW.

I don't like priests for blobs in general however. I would rather be able to go to ground when I need to and get ordered back into the fight. Just because I have 30 or more guys doesn't mean I want to throw them away.

Conscripts are another animal though and I feel you always want a priest in there plus another character to hike the LD for hymn tests.

Hollismason wrote:
So what are peoples thoughts on Command Squad in Chimera w/ Aquila backed up by two Manticores and a gunline of 30 Imperial Guard w/ 3 Autocannons in front.

Everything with in 6 gets Preferred Enemy and you can put a priest and one or two psykers in there somewhere to get prescience on the Manticores

Worth it?

Command Squad w/ Chimera and Aquila is 185 minimum but you also get orders.

 ansacs wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
You still get to use the highest LD in the unit. Only psychic checks specify that the psycher must use his base LD. So if you have a commissar or PP in the unit he tests on a 9 RAW.

I don't like priests for blobs in general however. I would rather be able to go to ground when I need to and get ordered back into the fight. Just because I have 30 or more guys doesn't mean I want to throw them away.

Conscripts are another animal though and I feel you always want a priest in there plus another character to hike the LD for hymn tests.

I would agree. I really like the priest + primaris combo. The primaris gives the Ld, priest keeps the ablative wounds on the board, and the primaris can chuck around prescience.