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Thats my usual game plan but doesnt prescience work better on them? Bs3 re-roll will get more hits than Bs2 re-roll? The psyocculum is turning a pretty weak shooting unit into an absolute nightmare. Saving your blob to shoot at other units. And putting it into a kitted out blob is asking for every weapon to be shot at the blob. If they are only shooting at you conscripts its a win win :-)


I see your point about the movement. I will still give it a go and see how it does :-)

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Useless Sidekick wrote:
Your saying 50 Bs10 shots hasnt got punch? Lol you could add the scout book but I was trying to keep the unit nice and cheap. You dont really want to be in combat just get into firing range give them an order and laugh manically :-)

He's saying strength 3 ap6 guns with an 18'' range don't have punch.

Sorry, but you're wrong on two accounts here. Lasguns are AP- and 24'' range, rapid fire.

Maybe if you don't even understand the fundamental basic weapon on an army you shouldn't make smart ass comments concerning it? Perhaps?

A 30 man blob under the effects of FRFSRF, or even at double tap alone will put out relatively quite a considerable amount of firepower. I've certainly had far better kill tallies with them than with full strength Tactical Squads.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Useless Sidekick wrote:
Your saying 50 Bs10 shots hasnt got punch? Lol you could add the scout book but I was trying to keep the unit nice and cheap. You dont really want to be in combat just get into firing range give them an order and laugh manically :-)

He's saying strength 3 ap6 guns with an 18'' range don't have punch.

Sorry, but you're wrong on two accounts here. Lasguns are AP- and 24'' range, rapid fire.

Maybe if you don't even understand the fundamental basic weapon on an army you shouldn't make smart ass comments concerning it? Perhaps?

U mad bro? I've been looking at Stormtroopers with 18'' range HSLG's all day- mistakes happen. Regardless, I'll be making as many smartass comments as I like; keep crying about it though.

A 30 man blob under the effects of FRFSRF, or even at double tap alone will put out relatively quite a considerable amount of firepower. I've certainly had far better kill tallies with them than with full strength Tactical Squads.

Good luck getting a 6'' move squad within 12'' of a lynch-pin enemy psyker, which is what this fellow wants to do. 100 lasgun shots is indeed "relatively" scary, whatever that means, but there's better options for what he wants to do.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Useless Sidekick wrote:
Your saying 50 Bs10 shots hasnt got punch? Lol you could add the scout book but I was trying to keep the unit nice and cheap. You dont really want to be in combat just get into firing range give them an order and laugh manically :-)

He's saying strength 3 ap6 guns with an 18'' range don't have punch.

Sorry, but you're wrong on two accounts here. Lasguns are AP- and 24'' range, rapid fire.

Maybe if you don't even understand the fundamental basic weapon on an army you shouldn't make smart ass comments concerning it? Perhaps?

U mad bro? Regardless, I'll be making as many smartass comments as I like; keep crying about it though.

A 30 man blob under the effects of FRFSRF, or even at double tap alone will put out relatively quite a considerable amount of firepower. I've certainly had far better kill tallies with them than with full strength Tactical Squads.

Good luck getting a 6'' move squad within 12'' of a lynch-pin enemy psyker, which is what this fellow wants to do. 100 lasgun shots is indeed "relatively" scary, whatever that means, but there's better options for what he wants to do.

U mad bro? Regardless, I'll be making as many smartass comments as I like; keep crying about it though.

Lololo umad? Umad-umad-umad?

Lolololo are you 12?

The fact that here you're literally using it as a trigger response without me even being obviously agitated only goes to show that you're a pot calling a white tea cup black with the latter part. Does this in itself make me mad? Nah. In fact I'm satisfied with reading this statement since you've denigrated your appearance to that of a pubescent child having just discovered internet memes.

I could have just replaced this with the Navy Seal copy pasta. Think of how much effort that would have taken, and how smart and matured that would have me seem. Gee.

Good luck getting a 6'' move squad within 12'' of a lynch-pin enemy psyker, which is what this fellow wants to do. 100 lasgun shots is indeed "relatively" scary, whatever that means, but there's better options for what he wants to do.

Getting effectively 46~+ automatic S3 hits on a Psyker's unit from 24'' away, combined with a 6'' scout, 6'' move, in the preceding turn MMM and in that turn possibly FFTE so they can't evade as easily means distance is not such an issue with that strategy, so long as your deployment is competent. Maybe it'll take 1-2 turns to get there, but still, Psykers are probably the most long lasting models you can get and don't often get massacred by turn 3 or even 2 - alternatively the mere threat or deterrent can restrict their movement, particularly with Psychic MC's.

With FRFSRF you're getting 90~+ automatic S3 hits max in the higher end of the spectrum at 24'' and maybe around 50-60-70 if not all are in range and FRFSRF is in effect.

Seems like a lot invested in a relatively situational strategy. I would still rather get some nice lascannons in the unit so I can take advantage of the ignore cover order and get some guaranteed wounds on.

Also I tried a 3 infantry squads blob with lascannons and yarrick on a icarus with the ignore cover power.....With an attached Inqusitor for LD 10 stubborn

nice.....wiped out two units of jetbikes and a unit of broadsides.

Also twinlinked my conscript squad, gave them the ignore cover order, and dropped my ordanance barrage taking out his buff commander and skyray.


Nice....

Yeah, the Yarrick blob is murder on almost anything. It is not even something most units want to charge.

I agree it is very situational but with a big step in the new 7th ed rules towards psychics it might be worth it and its only around 200pts.
On the out manoeuvring thing thats ok too if they are trying to keep away from it. Its restricting what the psykers can buff/debuff. Cleaver deployment can really screwed up their game plan.

I think if you are already taking the conscripts its not bad but I would rather give a blob of infantry squads with some heavy weapons for a few points more the same abilities.

I mean would you rather fire lasguns at a farseer squad with a 2+ re-rollable at 24 inchs, or would you rather fire lascannons putting them at a 4+ re-rollable and causing instant death at 48 inchs

The lascannon blob is the better choice. But it also makes it the biggest target in the game and every weapon the eldar player has will be fired at you big expensive blob to neutralise it.
Now if you prescience the lc blob and have the bs10 conscripts he has to choose between the two. And if the conscripts take a pounding just move the inquisitor into the big blob :-).

I have been running the lc/plasma blob with the inquisitor and it does take a beating after ave used it to shoot a psychic unit :-) good job they are on a landing platform :-)

Thing is that the blob is relatively cheap its 210 points for a 3 man unit and then 30 for platoon cmd. Easily fit 2 in a list with conscript blobs as well

I'm really second guessing LC in 7th ed because of the new vehicle damage chart where they only explode on a 7+.

I'm thinking mechanized melta and foot AC might be the way to go now.

AC gain more from tank hunters than LC.

I'm also thinking mech is back the new black.

2 vets can hit on a 5+ while the vehicle goes 12" per turn.

That increases to 5/9 chance of hitting if a lvl1 primaris joins the squad.

The Chimera has objective secured so scoring for mech will be even easier than in 5th.

Chimera can only explode from AP2 and AP1 weapons.

Ye I suppose ave been running a 50 man squad combining as and when needed :-) ave not played that many games so still learning the new dex :-/

I think the conscript squad works for me because I face nids and having the bs10 plus 'bring it down' really puts wounds on my mates m/c's.

On another note am guessing the precision shot will have a usr now as well to stop the order from being used wrong.

Am thinking mech vets, valks/dettas and scicons are going to be the way to go! With the new rules 'every unit is scoring am glad I havent downloaded the MT book :-/

Autocannons are meh at best against anything Av12 and above. If you do the tank hunters you are not getting ignore cover.

Dear god I am now arguing the opposite side of the coin now...

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Good luck getting a 6'' move squad within 12'' of a lynch-pin enemy psyker, which is what this fellow wants to do. 100 lasgun shots is indeed "relatively" scary, whatever that means, but there's better options for what he wants to do.

Getting effectively 46~+ automatic S3 hits on a Psyker's unit from 24'' away, combined with a 6'' scout, 6'' move, in the preceding turn MMM and in that turn possibly FFTE so they can't evade as easily means distance is not such an issue with that strategy, so long as your deployment is competent. Maybe it'll take 1-2 turns to get there, but still, Psykers are probably the most long lasting models you can get and don't often get massacred by turn 3 or even 2 - alternatively the mere threat or deterrent can restrict their movement, particularly with Psychic MC's.

With FRFSRF you're getting 90~+ automatic S3 hits max in the higher end of the spectrum at 24'' and maybe around 50-60-70 if not all are in range and FRFSRF is in effect.

50 conscripts would go up to BS10 versus a psyker's unit which pretty much means auto hits. Threat range from deployment with the book is 24" range +6" move +6" scout=36" threat range for single shot rapid fire range which goes up to double tap with FRFSRF scoring about 100 hits. That's 50 wounds against a t3 target, 33 versus a t4 target, and 16 wounds versus a t5 or t6 target. With 7th ed rules they would also be BS8 versus a psychic FMC and would land a reliable 16 wounds or so on fateweaver, flyrants, or a deamon prince.

It's a good combo but only witch hunter inquisitors can take the BS10 v psykers item and only xeno can take rad grenades so it's a tough call.

 Leth wrote:
Autocannons are meh at best against anything Av12 and above. If you do the tank hunters you are not getting ignore cover.

Dear god I am now arguing the opposite side of the coin now...

Lol, welcome to the darkside

If you look at the math the LC is almost even on the HP (2.5 LC vs 2.7 AC) against AV12 when the cover save is 5+ (as the LC can afford to use ignore cover orders instead of tank hunters). Even though the explodes goes to 7+ this evens out as the autocannon looses all ability to explode the vehicle while the lascannon just gets a bit worse at it. The biggest consideration though is that the lascannon stays better against AV13+ and MC's other than crones.

There are a lot of factors we don't know yet though. If ignore cover changes, jink, and snap fire all change then it could go either way depending.

 Leth wrote:
Autocannons are meh at best against anything Av12 and above. If you do the tank hunters you are not getting ignore cover.

Dear god I am now arguing the opposite side of the coin now...

Ignore cover is only a -2 to cover saves.

Against AV12

Tank hunters brings the chance of a HP strip up from 1/3 to 5/9.

LC has a natural 2/3 chance to strip HP so 6/9 to make math easy. Explodes will be as rare as current AC explodes, and 50% of the time LC will strip 3 hp before they explode anything.

Without cover the base is 10 tank hunting AC HP lost to every 6 LC ignore cover HP lost.

4+ cover from jink brings that ratio down to 5 AC and 5 LC HP stripped.

3+ cover brings the ratio down to 3.33 and 3.333

So dead even against AV12. The AC is cheaper and strips a lot of HP from anything that doesn't decide to jink while the LC has a 25% chance to explode before wrecking.

Ratio of tank hunting LC to AC against AV12 8 LC HP to every 10 AC HP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rhinos may be back in the meta.

Tac marines in a rhino can move 12" and fire a special + heavy weapon at BS2.

Strikes and Purifiers in a Rhino can move 12" and fire 8 psycannon shots in heavy 4 mode at BS2 for a 36" threat range. They also can hit flyers and FMC at BS2.

Rhinos are objective denied scoring units.

AC v LC against rhinos is a lot different than AV12.

AC will strip 1.5 HP to every .97 HP a LC strips. A pair of AC will strip 3HP wrecking a rhinio in the same time a pair of LC will strip 1.96HP. A pair of LC pens will explode a rhino 25.3% of the time while the 3HP stripped by AC will wreck a rhino 100% of the time.

 schadenfreude wrote:
50 conscripts would go up to BS10 versus a psyker's unit which pretty much means auto hits. Threat range from deployment with the book is 24" range +6" move +6" scout=36" threat range for single shot rapid fire range which goes up to double tap with FRFSRF scoring about 100 hits. That's 50 wounds against a t3 target, 33 versus a t4 target, and 16 wounds versus a t5 or t6 target. With 7th ed rules they would also be BS8 versus a psychic FMC and would land a reliable 16 wounds or so on fateweaver, flyrants, or a deamon prince.

It's a good combo but only witch hunter inquisitors can take the BS10 v psykers item and only xeno can take rad grenades so it's a tough call.

Saying such a unit has even a 24" range is completely misleading. Saying it has a 36" threat range means you have never put the models out and measured.

With 2" spacing the 50 conscripts (10x5 formation for ease of calculation, usually worse due to terrain) has a ~450" surface area or rather if the target is right in the center of the front rank (ie in melee) then the models on the edges of the front rank will be almost 15" from the target, the model in the back rank is ~15", and the models in the back corners are 21". So a model 24" from the front rank will allow 1-5 models to shoot. Even if we are generous as assume a 24" threat range (6" move, 6" scout) then at least a third of your models will be out of range. If you bunch up then you will loose most of the unit turn 1 from TFC, wyverns, etc. so 50 models will never happen unless your opponent does it for you (BTW with 6" scout and 6" movement you will only be at the edge of your deployment zone). Also 33 wounds sounds like a lot until you consider what you said you are shooting at; ie seer councils, screamer stars, FMC, etc. Most of the critters that are both psykers, going to be within 24" of the front line, and in LoS.

 ansacs wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
50 conscripts would go up to BS10 versus a psyker's unit which pretty much means auto hits. Threat range from deployment with the book is 24" range +6" move +6" scout=36" threat range for single shot rapid fire range which goes up to double tap with FRFSRF scoring about 100 hits. That's 50 wounds against a t3 target, 33 versus a t4 target, and 16 wounds versus a t5 or t6 target. With 7th ed rules they would also be BS8 versus a psychic FMC and would land a reliable 16 wounds or so on fateweaver, flyrants, or a deamon prince.

It's a good combo but only witch hunter inquisitors can take the BS10 v psykers item and only xeno can take rad grenades so it's a tough call.

With 2" spacing the 50 conscripts (10x5 formation for ease of calculation, usually worse due to terrain)

This is fallacial theory hammer, sorry. You are not putting 50 Conscripts in a neat 5 rank 2'' coherency maxed formation, not practically, not if you're competent. This makes the crux of your point here effectively moot.

The front ranks might be more spaced, but the back ranks are probably not as there is often very little need if you're not facing barrage en masse. There is also the pitch fork model formation at the front you can pull where in you have two cross linked strands moving up the table that minimises template coverage even more.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 ansacs wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
50 conscripts would go up to BS10 versus a psyker's unit which pretty much means auto hits. Threat range from deployment with the book is 24" range +6" move +6" scout=36" threat range for single shot rapid fire range which goes up to double tap with FRFSRF scoring about 100 hits. That's 50 wounds against a t3 target, 33 versus a t4 target, and 16 wounds versus a t5 or t6 target. With 7th ed rules they would also be BS8 versus a psychic FMC and would land a reliable 16 wounds or so on fateweaver, flyrants, or a deamon prince.

It's a good combo but only witch hunter inquisitors can take the BS10 v psykers item and only xeno can take rad grenades so it's a tough call.

With 2" spacing the 50 conscripts (10x5 formation for ease of calculation, usually worse due to terrain)

This is fallacial theory hammer, sorry. You are not putting 50 Conscripts in a neat 5 rank 2'' coherency maxed formation, not practically, not if you're competent. This makes the crux of your point here effectively moot.

The front ranks might be more spaced, but the back ranks are probably not as there is often very little need if you're not facing barrage en masse. There is also the pitch fork model formation at the front you can pull where in you have two cross linked strands moving up the table that minimises template coverage even more.

An IC can jump ship between blobs/conscripts to give whichever one needs it the BS bonus.

It's still a 36" turn 1 and 30" turn 2+ threat range per conscript/guardsman. The psyker still needs to close the gap. There are also some other factors.

Dispell dice can focus on fortune.

You're operating under the assumption that the psyker is going to cower in his own deployment zone for the entire game. If psykers have to hide outside of masses of guardsmen then that's also a win. If the psyker isn't part of a resiliency death star then BS10 will be very punishing if the psyker steps foot into no man's land or my side of the board.

Blobs can be quite mobile with move move move if nothing is within 24".

Ranks usually work best with 3 ranks of 15 plus some stragglers somewhere.

70 hits from 35 conscripts in range is still some pretty staggering dakka.

Some opponents don't bring blasts/templates. I have faced many Eldar lists that leave them at home and they really struggle with large numbers of guardsmen.

I don't need max 2" scatter when dealing with 5" pies. If a few 5" pies are all they have I really don't care if 8 conscripts die instead of 5 it's not worth sweating over 9 points. If it's a wyvern or thudd sure scatter as much as possible, but a pair of demolisher cannons is nothing for conscripts to be afraid of. A single TFC can only kill 12 conscripts a turn if they are poorly scattered and will probably still bag 6 if they are well scattered. It all depends on the list I am facing. .

I am actually coming around on that idea, I can still get servo skulls, I can still get the book. For 50 points min I am considering it. 89 points with level 1 and 3 skulls. I could see it being useful I will give it a try since I have never actually used my grenades. I can still get scout from my white scar characters.....hummm I dig it

I definitely need more practice moving and deploying that many models on the table though before I will be tournament ready with it. Getting two more games in this week so hopefully I will be more ready

Going from about 35 models to over 100 is a bit difficult to adjust to deployment wise, especially with good terrain.

Who cares aboot 2" spacing if I know I can get all the conscripts into range on the first turn and shoot at a seer council with a First rank second rank fire order or the fire and run order (might not be much of a move but it spaces me out a bit? It might not kill them all but I am going to take a big chunk out of the unit (how many points is a standard seerstar???) And if the conscripts get killed big deal they were only 200pts.

The problem is you assume that you are going first, the the jetseer council deployed in LoS and within 30" of you, and that they didn't deploy any infiltrators or scout forward to block you.

Have you seen the new psychic powers BTW. It looks like your idea just took a big improvement from misfortune giving rending and a new power which gives you a 12" movement. Lots of useful stuff.

I am not BTW against the big conscript blob with inquisition support. I personally run a double hammer hand with Azzy for a 4+ invulnerable unit of 50 when I feel like messing around. However you are drastically overestimating how easy it is to get 50 lasguns into firing range of anything important. All the talk about scouting and crescent shapes is all fine and dandy but you cannot deploy the unit more that 6" outside your deployment zone and you get 6" of movement. You do not get to move your crescent edges 8" so as to get that crescent shape and the models have 1" bases. Even with 3 deep you are still at least 3" away with the 4th rank. Also there is absolutely no reason the other player has to accommodate you and deploy an expensive seerstar within 30" of a conscript blob, especially when you count on going first so the seer star is not a rerollable 2+. It is something to keep in mind but I would not be counting on this.

Just tried it out today. If i had been facing someone other than FMC it would have been fantastic.

I would have just moved him over to my lascannon blob to ignore cover as well as ignore cover. If they get close, then every one of the death stars that requires a psyker gets unloaded on. from either conscripts or a blob. I think its awesome. I am definately going to keep one in my list

So what force weapon are you guys utilizing on you primaris's ? I have been using staffs just because I have this compulsion to adhere to wysiwyg but I am about to kitbash my own primaris and want to see what the consensus is on the most useful weapon with the new changes coming tomorrow.

Axe in 6th, axe in 7th.

Best overall damage. Doesn't lose much with crappy I3.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Axe in 6th, axe in 7th.

Best overall damage. Doesn't lose much with crappy I3.

Also you are not likely to be spending your warp charges giving them force anyway so might as well get the ap2

Well, what are you going to do with your IG army after the psychic changes, dakka players?

I myself am considering one of the two changes:
1. Drop psykers totally - benefit is a lot of points saved
2. Spam as many psykers as we can - benefit is prescience or other bonuses plus chance to deny enemy blessings..., negative is a huge point cost of that spam without any adding to the army list except the psychic bonuses...

I sadly can not use psykers as i was used to (2x ML1 inq psykers for two presciences...110 points, 91.66 chance for two blessing) - now those two ML1 psykers have SMALLER chance to cast ONE prescience than they had when casting TWO in 6th edition...and there will be a lot of dispelling from psyker heavy lists (Eldar, GKs, Daemons...), so dont expect to cast anything if you are not also psyker heavy

 Lothar wrote:

I myself am considering one of the two changes:
1. Drop psykers totally - benefit is a lot of points saved

That "a lot of points" is something like 225 when done right, not a big deal at all IMHO. Especially if you are not afraid using the Daemon Snowball. Also, 3++ Conscripts are neat .

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Lothar wrote:

I myself am considering one of the two changes:
1. Drop psykers totally - benefit is a lot of points saved

That "a lot of points" is something like 225 when done right, not a big deal at all IMHO. Especially if you are not afraid using the Daemon Snowball. Also, 3++ Conscripts are neat .

225 points is 3x ML2 Primaris...and what will be the bonus? 6 dices to warp pool...which means I still have smaller chance to cast 2 prescience blessings than before AND am paying 225 premium cost...so for total of 335 points i have a bit smaller chance to cast something I was casting for 110 points in 6th edition...you get what i want to say? Is that worth it? Thats my dilema (and considering i am playing against eldar all the time, the chance to deny my prescience is very big, because they easily generate 9 dices to warp pool + D6...which means almost certainly that one of the blessings will be denied...)

EDIT: I will NOT use daemon snowball...i play IG because i want to play IG...if i wanted to play daemons, I would have...

 Lothar wrote:

225 points is 3x ML2 Primaris...and what will be the bonus? 6 dices to warp pool...which means I still have smaller chance to cast 2 prescience blessings than before AND am paying 225 premium cost...so for total of 335 points i have a bit smaller chance to cast something I was casting for 110 points in 6th edition...you get what i want to say?

Maybe cast something else than Prescience? You can get 10 Warp Charges (6+D6), can burn 4 for a ~100% Prescience and use the rest for whatever you want. Like Forewarning+Sanctuary. Not to mention that in the enemy Psychic phase, you will have +6 dices to try to dispel stuff.