Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As it should for twice as many points. The superiority of the lascannon was not in question. However the additional expendature versus returns was the question.

I agree that autocannons are very useful. I would actually say that the decision is much more dependent on meta but against almost all MCs, any AV12+ with cover the lascannon is better as you can afford to give it ignore cover and still get good glance/pen averages.

These include Waveserpent, Wraithkights, Riptides, CD MCs, Nids not Harpy MCs, landraiders, leman russ'.

Flyers they are equally bad/good against with the jink actually being somewhat desirable to force the opponent into but reducing damage and the high damage cap being negated by single turn kills being much more desirable.

Autocannons do have a place though. With tank hunters they are better against harpies, certain high T infantry, and AV10 and they cost 50 pts less over 5 AC/LC.

When you say they are half the cost this is somewhat disingenuous as the carrier cost, prescience, and tank hunters all have costs associated with them. The autocannons are not doing a lot without those buffs and IS's to protect them. In a way you can ask is it worth 50 pts to save 110 pts so you don't have to get another CCS and primaris?

You are correct, however I am taking them for a specific purpose right now which is to get more shots at fmc. I like having 6 shots to try and get that hit rather than relying on three. But like I said in my list they fill a specific role and my other needs are taken care of by other units.

As to your argument you are already spending those points to give the lascannon tank hunter/twinlink/ignore cover so it is moot to add them to the cost.

However it is 60 points versus 70 points so a 16.6% increase in cost.

Also against the most worrisome AV12 I believe that the Autocannon is better(Wave serpent with shield up)

Leth wrote:As it should for twice as many points.

Carrier costs.

A PIS with a lascannon isn't twice as expensive as a PIS with an autocannon.

Leth wrote:However it is 60 points versus 70 points so a 16.6% increase in cost.

For being much better at practically everything, 16% is a bargain.

Leth wrote: I am taking them for a specific purpose right now which is to get more shots at fmc.

Then why take an autocannon. Why not take a heavy bolter? Why bother with heavy weapons at all? You get more shots per point from lasguns.

Leth wrote:You are correct, however I am taking them for a specific purpose right now which is to get more shots at fmc. I like having 6 shots to try and get that hit rather than relying on three. But like I said in my list they fill a specific role and my other needs are taken care of by other units.

Fair enough. I definitely believe the AC has it's uses. I have 6 of the DKoK AC models after all.

Leth wrote:As to your argument you are already spending those points to give the lascannon tank hunter/twinlink/ignore cover so it is moot to add them to the cost.

However it is 60 points versus 70 points so a 16.6% increase in cost.

That's the thing though. You are taking 500-700 pts to ensure all this and get it off properly. Therefore the difference in those two lists is 50 pts out of 500 pts. That is a 10% difference.

Also against the most worrisome AV12 I believe that the Autocannon is better(Wave serpent with shield up)

I think my problem is that I feel like my list will contain a bunch of rending S5 shots and some lascannons. I don't really see a place for ACs there. (Other than the obvious quadgun ones... and the quadgun is likely to be the squad that definitely gets the Tank hunters order with it being twin-linked and 2 ACs worth of shots + 1 extra AC/LC from the squad.)

I think my problem is I'm having trouble remembering the last time AP 4 was useful against anything I've faced, whereas AP2 is twice the explodes chance and many times the armor save fail chance.

fair enough, you guys are making solid points. I will have to reconsider my position.

So used to my lists being so tight I literally cant find 5 points to spare, so when I see a reasonable opportunity to cut 10 I guess it overrides reason.

I will have to try out both

Lascannons are better in almost every situation in my opinion.

Autocannons are great for killing things that the Guard has no trouble killing already. If you really really want to get medium-strength AP4 shots, grenade launchers are even cheaper, and we all know how much garbage they are...

 Leth wrote:
fair enough, you guys are making solid points. I will have to reconsider my position.

So used to my lists being so tight I literally cant find 5 points to spare, so when I see a reasonable opportunity to cut 10 I guess it overrides reason.

I will have to try out both

Excellent. I would say this is the best answer to any question in 40K. Play more games and try out the options.

I have no problem being wrong. They presented solid evidence when I was going on intuition of the math instead of calculating it myself.

I will admit half of it was biased by the fact that I just got 3 DKOK autocannon teams, but I also got 3 lascannon teams. Eventually I will probably try a autocannon heavy weapons team see how that works

 ansacs wrote:

 Leth wrote:
fair enough, you guys are making solid points. I will have to reconsider my position.

So used to my lists being so tight I literally cant find 5 points to spare, so when I see a reasonable opportunity to cut 10 I guess it overrides reason.

I will have to try out both

Excellent. I would say this is the best answer to any question in 40K. Play more games and try out the options.

Yea. its weird how many things work well on paper, or even mathhammer out better, but once you get them on the table you see how things actually work in concert together. That just takes practice on the table.

Its not like pask where the guns are so different in stats that it is hard to do a direct comparison but with lascannon and autocannons it is pretty straight forward.

However with the change to the vehicle damage table, assuming rending does not get AP 2 for vehicles as well as losing reliable prescience I think vanquisher pask is going to pull ahead. With having to glance to get a kill the AP1/2 shots will be needed when you want to go for some serious damage.

7th ed vehicle damage chart

1-3 shaken
4 stunned
5 weapon destroyed
6 immobilized
7+ explodes

Well that reopens the LC v AC debate and causes us to rethink anti tank. LC only have a 50% chance of exploding before 3 hp are stripped and AC can only destroy by hp stripping.

LC and AC are even in HP stripped against av12 until a unit gets tank hunters through orders, then AC strip 25% more HP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratio of hp lost with tank hunters

av10 ac1.77 to lc 1
av11 ac 1.54 to lc1
av12 ac 1 to lc 0.8
av13 ac 1 to lc 1.2

 Leth wrote:
I have no problem being wrong. They presented solid evidence when I was going on intuition of the math instead of calculating it myself.

I will admit half of it was biased by the fact that I just got 3 DKOK autocannon teams, but I also got 3 lascannon teams. Eventually I will probably try a autocannon heavy weapons team see how that works

 ansacs wrote:

 Leth wrote:
fair enough, you guys are making solid points. I will have to reconsider my position.

So used to my lists being so tight I literally cant find 5 points to spare, so when I see a reasonable opportunity to cut 10 I guess it overrides reason.

I will have to try out both

Excellent. I would say this is the best answer to any question in 40K. Play more games and try out the options.

Yea. its weird how many things work well on paper, or even mathhammer out better, but once you get them on the table you see how things actually work in concert together. That just takes practice on the table.

Its not like pask where the guns are so different in stats that it is hard to do a direct comparison but with lascannon and autocannons it is pretty straight forward.

However with the change to the vehicle damage table, assuming rending does not get AP 2 for vehicles as well as losing reliable prescience I think vanquisher pask is going to pull ahead. With having to glance to get a kill the AP1/2 shots will be needed when you want to go for some serious damage.

I think sometimes too the problem is the thing that mathhammers well is the obvious first thing for your opponent to kill or hide from. I'm almost wondering if maybe I should go through and find things that feel weak intuitively, but mathematically are scary (like Pask's punisher to someone that forgets he can reroll armor pen or doesn't understand how Rending works when you're getting 15+ hits.) or the Wyvern if the enemy clumps up thinking, oh it's only S4, lol. Awesome units that are obviously awesome make big targets.

One thing I really want to try, and I'm not sure it's the most efficient unit but it kind of grew up organically as I plan to upgrade existing units in an escalation league is: vet squad with a LC, on the Aegis quad gun, with terminator inquisitor with psycannon. 8 S7 AP4 shots (half of them rending) and 1 S9 AP2 shot. With tank hunters that unit becomes scary to sub AV13 things at long range. The vets can have a 3+ cover save the inquisitor has a 2+/5++. The main weakness is the cost and the T3. On the bright side they will do far better manning that quad gun than any of my small sisters squads because of the tank hunter and the larger model count.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:
7th ed vehicle damage chart

1-3 shaken
4 stunned
5 weapon destroyed
6 immobilized
7+ explodes

Well that reopens the LC v AC debate and causes us to rethink anti tank. LC only have a 50% chance of exploding before 3 hp are stripped and AC can only destroy by hp stripping.

LC and AC are even in HP stripped against av12 until a unit gets tank hunters through orders, then AC strip 25% more HP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratio of hp lost with tank hunters

av10 ac1.77 to lc 1
av11 ac 1.54 to lc1
av12 ac 1 to lc 0.8
av13 ac 1 to lc 1.2

The non-melta knight can't kill a Rhino/Taurox/any cheap 3 HP transport in a single turn now... The melta one has a <33% chance. I'm thinking this makes Rhino/Chimera/taurox spam more viable now. (Sadly, this isn't a thing i can test anytime soon given my speed at painting vehicles :()

Chimera are very unlikely to explode now and provide good cover when they wreck.

I'm thinking I want to play a more mobile Guard force this Sunday, since my oppponent said last week he hates facing gunlines. I wonder how Rough Riders would work. Maybe some melta vets?

Sentinels just got a bit better since most weapons that you want to fire at something that cheap/in armored can't blow them up right away now.

So here's something I noticed now that we have easy access to deep striking scoring troops in our ally slot.

Previously, IG had no option like this without allying in Space Marines with drop pods. Even with that, you're getting bolters plus 1 special 1 heavy, not a whole lot of firepower IMO if you compare that to two special weapons plus S3 AP3 (which is very good against xeno sv4+ infantry, okay against MEQ in a pinch), on top of the option for orders buffing the squad. The scoring storm troopers cost in this case using deep strike is comparable to the Marines with the pod.

Even take the Sternguard veterans in a pod, which needs a 185point HQ tax in order to score, which are the supposed to be ultimate end all be all of special forces, for a unit of 10 and a couple special weapons comes to almost 500 points.

The deep striking Scion command squad + 10 man scion squad and two plasma or melta is HALF that cost! With Sv 3+ not being worth much nowadays, the fifteen bodies of Scions seems like the superior option in all cases.

Thoughts?

I played my first battle with the new guard dex the other day against a tyranid opponent. Despite successfully using mech guard for a good few years, I though I'd try out the new cheap conscripts combined with a few priests, plus standard infantry blobs and a few supporting Leman Russes.

Well it was the exact same result as blob guard in the old dex, which is to say they were destroyed by shooting and the remainders crushed in assault. Priests made them a lot better in close combat sure, but they're still squishy, have a huge footprint, and have crappy firepower at any range.

Next time I'll try out the new super cheap carapace vets and more leman russes. At about 1250 points I can bring 3 squads with plasma guns and a CCS for 450 points, leaving me 800 to spend on my tanks. I could get about 5 Leman Russes in, I'd like to diversify more but I'm limited in what I can proxy.

Conscripts are like violence. If they don't solve all your problems you're not using enough of them.

I've been running about 75 of them. They take heavy losses but tend to box people into their deployment zone giving me mid field control. They can become really scary if an inquisitor attaches right before they charge.

How are you guys fitting out your CCS now? I'm starting to think I should run them naked and just hide them near my squads. Also I am finding with priests and psykers it is easier to be more aggressive with even 30 man blobs of guard.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
How are you guys fitting out your CCS now? I'm starting to think I should run them naked and just hide them near my squads. Also I am finding with priests and psykers it is easier to be more aggressive with even 30 man blobs of guard.

I just give mine Kurov's Aquila then bury them amongst my thudds and sabres.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
How are you guys fitting out your CCS now? I'm starting to think I should run them naked and just hide them near my squads. Also I am finding with priests and psykers it is easier to be more aggressive with even 30 man blobs of guard.

The CCS is largely the same as it was. Bare, or with a Mortar or Lascannon are all good options, the Regimental Standard is a must-take if you're running infantry, and the various Advisers are all good pics.

Aggressive blobs certainly benefit from the support options, as it generally puts up their damage output at any given range with a Psyker/Priest combo.

Ive been giving my CCS snipers and camo, and letting them camp a quad gun. the snipers give a little extra reach.

Or packing it with GL for dirt cheap extra punch in a pinch.

I still run them how i used to; Vox, Standard 2 palsmaguns, commander is either naked or with a shotgun, rarely with any other gear.

I did ran some speudo-apocalypse game, I had everyone in carapace and camo-gear, but it ranks up the cost; 16 for the vet and 15 for the commander alone...

I dumped my CCS but run 2 platoons and have had good results from my 2 quad sniper PCS. The officer no longer needs LOS to I place a backfield objective near a LOS blocker and stick out the 4 snipers to shoot with the officer out of view.

Ok boys here is one for you :-)

How aboot a full conscript squad with an inquisitor with the null rod and the psyocculum, and just go hunting any psychic on the table.
True its a very linear unit but with the new rules for psykers my guess is most armies are going to pack a few. And most of the top tier lists are based around psychic powers. This is a cheap unit that will have to be dealt with.

Gonna have to be careful with precision shot from a few armies but other than that, sounds good.

I would add something else to it to give it more punch but that is me. Really depends on the rest of the unit(maybe give the inquisitor the scout book as well?)

Your saying 50 Bs10 shots hasnt got punch? Lol you could add the scout book but I was trying to keep the unit nice and cheap. You dont really want to be in combat just get into firing range give them an order and laugh manically :-)

Personally i rather drop the psyocculum on a infantry blob that has some nice heavy weapons and maybe some specials.

Useless Sidekick wrote:Your saying 50 Bs10 shots hasnt got punch? Lol you could add the scout book but I was trying to keep the unit nice and cheap. You dont really want to be in combat just get into firing range give them an order and laugh manically :-)

Desubot wrote:Personally i rather drop the psyocculum on a infantry blob that has some nice heavy weapons and maybe some specials.

I would agree with putting it on IS's with heavies and specials. The problem with conscript's ranged damage is two fold; 1) you will never get 50 models into range of anything your speed or better (which is everything) and if you do you are so bunched up they die immediately and 2) they are still lasguns so there are a lot of things they will bounce off of.

Conscripts are hilarious for giving them precision shot and prescience. If you get into double tap range you are looking at 30 precision shots. The look on the other player's face is priceless.

Useless Sidekick wrote:
Your saying 50 Bs10 shots hasnt got punch? Lol you could add the scout book but I was trying to keep the unit nice and cheap. You dont really want to be in combat just get into firing range give them an order and laugh manically :-)

He's saying strength 3 ap6 guns with an 18'' range don't have punch.