Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

For all you grognards whinging about Deathstar 40k, rejoice, because the age of the Deathstar is over... except for the IG Deathstar. Welcome to the Imperial Age.

Knights ruin CC deathstars like Beastpack and Seer Council, and Eldar/DE don't have real reliable options for taking Knights down at range in current builds.

Buffstars like the O'vesaStar and the Screamerstar that rely on a single person buffing the unit run into the order, Take Aim, which renders the shooting of your entire unit into Precision Shots.
You know, the shots from characters that hit on 6's. That's your entire IG blob shooting one Buffmander or Grimoire Herald... you are going to fail Look out Sir's eventually. ( No, the Grimoire holder can't buff himself.)

Also, IG deathstars get cheap priests for re-rolls to saves in CC, for 2+ 3++ rerollable Chapter Masters, as well as rerollable to-wound. They can also get ignores cover via an order, Tank Hunter+Monster Hunter via an order, and dirt cheap DIV/TELE psykers. And Preferred Enemy in a 6" bubble. The Imperial Deathstar is hands down the most brutal close-combat unit in the game.

IG Deathstars are also pretty good at soaking up Knight attacks, so Knights don't counter them. Just keep a couple of melta-bomb Characters for the counterattack.

The age of the Xenos is over. The age of Man has begun.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
...and Eldar/DE don't have real reliable options for taking Knights down at range in current builds.

Have you ever, ever played DE? You know, the army that can bring all those dark lances? If DE can't, then no one can. Maybe not venom spam as is, but they can adapt.

The Imperial Deathstar is hands down the most brutal close-combat unit in the game.

What are putting in this deathstar? Cause I can put 12 S5 AP3 (I6) and 12 S10 AP2 (I1) hits from the charge in a paladinstar, and that doesn't include draigo or other buffing characters (and those are all ID and probably prescienced, btw). And that unit will have a 2++ save in CC for a little bit. That's just an example from a deathstar which is OBSOLETE.

IG Deathstars are also pretty good at soaking up Knight attacks, so Knights don't counter them. Just keep a couple of melta-bomb Characters for the counterattack.

Once again, what are you putting in this deathstar? Cause soaking up D-weapon and Stomp attacks generally doesn't lead to "I pwn screamer-star face in CC"

The age of the Xenos is over. The age of Man has begun.

Perhaps, but probably not for the reasons you think. Precision fire is good though.

Man, hopefully 7th edition gets here soon and the Escalation rules get fully integrated into the main rulebook so certain counters to this kind of crap become basic matter of fact.
"That sure is a big collection of guardsmen you've got there. It would be a shame if someone were to... drop an apocalyptic mega blast."

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


Knights ruin CC deathstars like Beastpack and Seer Council, and Eldar/DE don't have real reliable options for taking Knights down at range in current builds.

but their are haywire grenades. The knight will win combat if and only if he actually gets to stirke. His stomp happens at init4 right? After wyches have shut him down at init 6.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
...and Eldar/DE don't have real reliable options for taking Knights down at range in current builds.

Have you ever, ever played DE? You know, the army that can bring all those dark lances? If DE can't, then no one can. Maybe not venom spam as is, but they can adapt.

The Imperial Deathstar is hands down the most brutal close-combat unit in the game.

What are putting in this deathstar? Cause I can put 12 S5 AP3 (I6) and 12 S10 AP2 (I1) hits from the charge in a paladinstar, and that doesn't include draigo or other buffing characters (and those are all ID and probably prescienced, btw). And that unit will have a 2++ save in CC for a little bit. That's just an example from a deathstar which is OBSOLETE.

IG Deathstars are also pretty good at soaking up Knight attacks, so Knights don't counter them. Just keep a couple of melta-bomb Characters for the counterattack.

Once again, what are you putting in this deathstar? Cause soaking up D-weapon and Stomp attacks generally doesn't lead to "I pwn screamer-star face in CC"

The age of the Xenos is over. The age of Man has begun.

Perhaps, but probably not for the reasons you think. Precision fire is good though.

I'm sorry but Venomspam hasn't been competitive for a long time, and still isn't. Dark Lances aren't effective Knight killers, either, it's called Ion Shield.

1-2 Chapter Masters, Meltabomb/ Axe sarges, 2 Inquisitors (Psychotroke+Rad, maybe Coteaz), 1-3 Primaris Psykers rolling Div/Tele/Bio, 3 Priests and 50 ablative guardsmen.

There is no way Paladinstar will get there intact, considering all the Preferred Enemy shooting.And if they do, I'll be tanking wounds on a 2+ and 3++ rerollable save.

Screamerstar is probably the most mediocre deathstar in close combat. In any case, there will be a ton of (instant death) precision attacks going down on the grimoire holder, and he can't re-roll his look out sir save...

 Exergy wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


Knights ruin CC deathstars like Beastpack and Seer Council, and Eldar/DE don't have real reliable options for taking Knights down at range in current builds.

but their are haywire grenades. The knight will win combat if and only if he actually gets to stirke. His stomp happens at init4 right? After wyches have shut him down at init 6.

Assuming Wyches make it to CC with the Knight. It probably won't happen unless the IG player deploys and runs his T1 like a complete tool.

 Exergy wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


Knights ruin CC deathstars like Beastpack and Seer Council, and Eldar/DE don't have real reliable options for taking Knights down at range in current builds.

but their are haywire grenades. The knight will win combat if and only if he actually gets to stirke. His stomp happens at init4 right? After wyches have shut him down at init 6.

Wyches are certainly good against Knights, but gak in general against everything else and not competitive.

It doesn't negate deathstars but you have a lot of things to deal with them now. Also, giant blobs die to barrage especially when you model snipe with the templates.

You kill one priest who doesn't have a invulnerable then break the whole unit.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
For all you grognards whinging about Deathstar 40k, rejoice, because the age of the Deathstar is over... except for the IG Deathstar. Welcome to the Imperial Age.

Knights ruin CC deathstars like Beastpack and Seer Council, and Eldar/DE don't have real reliable options for taking Knights down at range in current builds.

Buffstars like the O'vesaStar and the Screamerstar that rely on a single person buffing the unit run into the order, Take Aim, which renders the shooting of your entire unit into Precision Shots.
You know, the shots from characters that hit on 6's. That's your entire IG blob shooting one Buffmander or Grimoire Herald... you are going to fail Look out Sir's eventually. ( No, the Grimoire holder can't buff himself.)

Also, IG deathstars get cheap priests for re-rolls to saves in CC, for 2+ 3++ rerollable Chapter Masters, as well as rerollable to-wound. They can also get ignores cover via an order, Tank Hunter+Monster Hunter via an order, and dirt cheap DIV/TELE psykers. And Preferred Enemy in a 6" bubble. The Imperial Deathstar is hands down the most brutal close-combat unit in the game.

IG Deathstars are also pretty good at soaking up Knight attacks, so Knights don't counter them. Just keep a couple of melta-bomb Characters for the counterattack.

The age of the Xenos is over. The age of Man has begun.

Ummmm not really what you think.
Eldar kills knight like nothing even happened at range or in combat. And if your counting on the explosion killing it, well the S: D explosion doesnt really even clear the base so youll have to count on it scattering, which isn to reliable.
Only problem about kiling buff mander is that the ovesastar is hiding on the opposite corner of the board, out of range of most of your guns. And then all the large blasts its lobbing down starts to really hurt you.
Your imperial death star may be good (best in game is a stretch) But its slow. Really slow
ya... the IG are good but it wont shift the competitive meta lists a ton.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

Ummmm not really what you think.
Eldar kills knight like nothing even happened at range or in combat. And if your counting on the explosion killing it, well the S: D explosion doesnt really even clear the base so youll have to count on it scattering, which isn to reliable.
Only problem about kiling buff mander is that the ovesastar is hiding on the opposite corner of the board, out of range of most of your guns. And then all the large blasts its lobbing down starts to really hurt you.
Your imperial death star may be good (best in game is a stretch) But its slow. Really slow
ya... the IG are good but it wont shift the competitive meta lists a ton.

I'm not entirely sure you're writing English, but I will attempt to decipher your mangled retort.

Name me some Codex Eldar units that are good against Knights. Fire Dragons? Does anyone actually take them? Wraithknights have probably the best shot, but it's an almost guaranteed one-way trip.

If the O'vesa star is hiding in the opposite corner of the board, it's ceded board control and you can go ahead and do as you please with your scoring blob. It's not out of range of my barrage weapons, either. And if he lobs blast weapons at me, killing, wow, 10 guardsmen a turn, he's not shooting the Knights which are coming over with a large beaty stick that even Nova-reactor can't save him from.

The IG deathstar isn't as quick as some others, but it sure as hell beats down on all the other Deathstars in the game. It also can cover half the board and remain scoring, which is something the others can't do.

I'm pretty sure Knights kill the Xenos deathstar meta dead, and the IG star is the last nail in the coffin...

Oh I am so pissed that Orks flat out cannot get 'looted' knights to go crap on the screamerstar stuff with

After playing my first game against knights the other night (mutli-player my side was white scars & necrons - no escalation on our side) ... they really are not as durable as you think and the ranged weapons are not very scary, most xenos armies / SM bikes aren't going to let a knight getting close enough for CC without dropping it.

.... a couple glances and an explode pen and you have a dead knight, even with the 4+ ion shield that is not hard for most armies.



I have been a fan of the IG blob for a long time but adding in multiple chapter masters is a waste of points ..... 50 guys with 5 sgts with power axes & melta bombs, 5 flamers combined with a priest / inquisitor with divination is more than adequate (the only SM character I would add in would be Azreal with the 4++ but even then its a pricey blob) but this tactic has been around for a while now, nothing new.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xeno armies aren't going anywhere in the current meta .... even if there is a shift from death stars, xenos armies still have some of the better lords of war from escalation which makes the argument of IG + Knights are better than Xenos an invalid argument.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

Ummmm not really what you think.
Eldar kills knight like nothing even happened at range or in combat. And if your counting on the explosion killing it, well the S: D explosion doesnt really even clear the base so youll have to count on it scattering, which isn to reliable.
Only problem about kiling buff mander is that the ovesastar is hiding on the opposite corner of the board, out of range of most of your guns. And then all the large blasts its lobbing down starts to really hurt you.
Your imperial death star may be good (best in game is a stretch) But its slow. Really slow
ya... the IG are good but it wont shift the competitive meta lists a ton.

I'm not entirely sure you're writing English, but I will attempt to decipher your mangled retort.

Name me some Codex Eldar units that are good against Knights. Fire Dragons? Does anyone actually take them? Wraithknights have probably the best shot, but it's an almost guaranteed one-way trip.

If the O'vesa star is hiding in the opposite corner of the board, it's ceded board control and you can go ahead and do as you please with your scoring blob. It's not out of range of my barrage weapons, either. And if he lobs blast weapons at me, killing, wow, 10 guardsmen a turn, he's not shooting the Knights which are coming over with a large beaty stick that even Nova-reactor can't save him from.

The IG deathstar isn't as quick as some others, but it sure as hell beats down on all the other Deathstars in the game. It also can cover half the board and remain scoring, which is something the others can't do.

I'm pretty sure Knights kill the Xenos deathstar meta dead, and the IG star is the last nail in the coffin...

Um try seer star. Then try wave serpents. Then if your still not convinced try wraithknights, war walkers, hornets, crimson hunter, wraithguard, and then yes, fire dragons. Eldar deal with knights with ease.

I dont play tau, but if I did i woudnt be to worried at all. Hammer heads, rip tides, and broad sides all hurt you so bad. Knights are good vs tau, but wont win you the game.

Seer star is much better in objective missions, as it can split last turn and deny near every objective. And it actually doesnt beat down "all the other death stars in the game". Seer star would just go around your deathstar and do there thing, while beast pack goes strait to your so called death star and tears it apart.

Knights have been out for a while, and the competitive exeno armies havnt given a damn. IG "star" is definitely not the nail in the coffin. Go play some games.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I'm sorry but Venomspam hasn't been competitive for a long time, and still isn't. Dark Lances aren't effective Knight killers, either, it's called Ion Shield.

You're the one who was concerned about DE in the OP, we already know that DE isn't the "top-tier" army. And while Dark lances may not be the best, they're still pretty good, and you can take alot of them.

1-2 Chapter Masters, Meltabomb/ Axe sarges, 2 Inquisitors (Psychotroke+Rad, maybe Coteaz), 1-3 Primaris Psykers rolling Div/Tele/Bio, 3 Priests and 50 ablative guardsmen.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Your deathstar is dead for the same reasons draigowing is...it's not very fast. Your saves are only re-rolled in melee, so serpent spam, grav spam, and tau sheer volume of fire will knock you down. Once your chapter master is dead, even boltguns will shred what's left.

There is no way Paladinstar will get there intact, considering all the Preferred Enemy shooting.And if they do, I'll be tanking wounds on a 2+ and 3++ rerollable save

That's very true, of course a modern dragiowing would probably be sporting those fancy grenades too. But you'll have been dealing with twin-linked S5 bolters and psycannons too (on majority toughness 3). And most of the current deathstars are fast enough to avoid you.

Screamerstar is probably the most mediocre deathstar in close combat. In any case, there will be a ton of (instant death) precision attacks going down on the grimoire holder, and he can't re-roll his look out sir save...

Yep, depending on how the precision shot order is ruled (I'm guessing you have a guy giving orders somewhere, too). If every shot IS a precision shot, then yeah you can kill him. But if only 6s are...once he's in combat he will tie you up all game. And like all deathstars, this one's pretty expensive.

I might be wrong, and these imperial deathstars will dominate the tournament scene in the coming months. But I'm pretty sure I'm not.

Assuming Prescience, lasguns, and preferred enemy for the guard, here's draigowing paladinstar shooting vs. yours:
Draigo+5 pallies (stormbolters): 10.66 hits -> 8.88 wounds -> 1.48 unsaved (on the CM)
4 Psycanonns: 14.22 hits -> 11.85 wounds (2.37 rending) -> 2.37 unsaved (on the CM)
=3.85 unsaved wounds on the CM (2.57 if you had FNP)

50 guardsmen with lasguns: 37.5 hits -> 14.58 wounds -> 2.43 unsaved -> 1.62 suffered (after FNP)
=1.62 wounds on Draigo or a paladin

I'm assuming lasguns since you said they were ablative, if you wanted to bump you points up for some plasma it's be a different story. Regardless, once your chapter master is down you're looking at taking 20ish wounds a turn vice 4. But considering your deahtstar is outshot by a deathstar that itself is outshot by alot of stuff in the game right now I think your odds of "getting there intact" as you put it are pretty slim. I use Draigowing as an example not because it's awesome, but because it's obsolete for many of the same reasons I thin your deathstar isn't as good as you think it is.

Death-Blob was good even before the release, now it's gotten better. I used this build:

50-strong platoon (3 meltas, 3 power axes on sarges, 30 krak nades, 2 vox casters to more reliably get orders cause comissar lord ain't alwayz around).
Xeno inquisitor with all the nades, ML1, 3 servo-sculls, power-armor, liber heresius for scout move, counter-attack and other useful stuff.
Tigurius to get 4++ or fnp+relentless or other stuff he can get.

Sometimes i also took a hell lot of conscripts with comissar lord.

All in all, platoon with nades and buffed to boot are a hard nut to crack. Actually, i've lost count on how many mc's and bikes they've killed in mellee with grenades and bayonetes. They endure shooting rather well if you get 4++, they won't threaten wave serpent spam by themselves but hey, you got other stuff for that role.

Knights are difficult to judge. On one hand, they're gonca cause alot of problems to orkses, csm, tyranids and other low-mid-tier guyz, also will be a hard counter to daemons cause can pretty much ignore invuls in mellee. But i don't see how knights are breaking tau, eldar and necrons gameplay. Probably, wraithwing and seer council won't be that effective but that's it. Xeno shooting power and mobility is still enough to reliably lay down knights at range in a couple of turns and they're definitely not frightened by 2 battlecannons that don't ignore cover.

Where i think this deathstar might be wrong, is there, simply in the idea by itself, the imperial guard is an army completing itself on every aspect by every unit.

If i want a deathstar, i'll prolly go for terminators or DCA, both with psyker & priest, ofc you have to deliver them, LR or stormraven, or you can try something but anyway, they are powerful and cheap(at least the DCA are)

If i dont want a deathstar, i use my own idea of deathstar, it's called heavy artillery. If it isnt enough, i use my second somewhat deathstar, it's called scion drop squad, the command squad descend with 5 plasma and burn something to ashe, you can prescience it if you want, and prolly monster hunter it too, i'm not sure about the math, but it should hurt badly even a wraightknight.

And then again, the only thing that wont anihilate an unit in one shooting phase in the imperial guard is prolly the cheap ass units, i'm talking about hydra (nerfed so much they're not worthit anymore, unless you play the IA versions), wyverns and (bull/o)gryns.

Anyway, i never lost any fight with my 50man blob, with 5AC, psyker (double grenades), just the overwatch always kill something, and most of the time it alsomake the enemy unable to assault since they're too far.


All in all, you can still try to overbuff a platoon, but it doesnt need it, all it needs is mass shooting power, and being able to hold, an inquisitor with a regimental standard will always do the job.

 skoffs wrote:
Man, hopefully 7th edition gets here soon and the Escalation rules get fully integrated into the main rulebook so certain counters to this kind of crap become basic matter of fact.
"That sure is a big collection of guardsmen you've got there. It would be a shame if someone were to... drop an apocalyptic mega blast."

Escalation rules not being optional would be the end of this game.

dadakkaest wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Man, hopefully 7th edition gets here soon and the Escalation rules get fully integrated into the main rulebook so certain counters to this kind of crap become basic matter of fact.
"That sure is a big collection of guardsmen you've got there. It would be a shame if someone were to... drop an apocalyptic mega blast."

Escalation rules not being optional would be the end of this game.

All rules are optional.

I have to chime in on the laughable survivability of Imperial Knights. Jam up their movement with something disposable like a Wyvern or an empty Rhino, then hit them from two sides with normal anti-tank weapons and watch them crumple. I've killed two so far. One died to 3 MM attack bikes in its' side arc while it stared down a pair of Stormravens from the front. The second caught a meltagun and krak missile to the face while two Vanquishers shot it from the side. In both cases, I stripped off six hull points in a single turn of shooting.

I'd imagine two Wraithknights, or a Tank Hunter Bursttide will have absolutely zero problems with one. The same will be true to Chaos Daemons. Puppetmaster something else into shooting the knight in the back or side while the shield is forward and call it a day.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother posting tactics threads when all I get is the baddies and casuals coming out of the woodwork with their 6 month old local meta builds and suggestions.

Sigh, once more into the breach, dear friends! In the name of 40k education.

Whereswaldo wrote:After playing my first game against knights the other night (mutli-player my side was white scars & necrons - no escalation on our side) ... they really are not as durable as you think and the ranged weapons are not very scary, most xenos armies / SM bikes aren't going to let a knight getting close enough for CC without dropping it.

.... a couple glances and an explode pen and you have a dead knight, even with the 4+ ion shield that is not hard for most armies.

I have been a fan of the IG blob for a long time but adding in multiple chapter masters is a waste of points ..... 50 guys with 5 sgts with power axes & melta bombs, 5 flamers combined with a priest / inquisitor with divination is more than adequate (the only SM character I would add in would be Azreal with the 4++ but even then its a pricey blob) but this tactic has been around for a while now, nothing new.

Let's play one anecdotal game against one anecdotal Knight and base all our experiences on that! Knights have been proven to be resilient and dangerous threats, and any firepower on them isn't going to be directed at your Deathstar.

The Chapter Masters are there to tank incoming fire on their 2+, and provide a 2+ 3++ rerollable save in cc, so nothing can actually hurt them. Melta bombs are sufficient on Sarges, although Conscripts are a good bet as well at 150 points for 50 models. The trick with IG blobs is that you infiltrate them and spread out so your enemy has literally nowhere to maneuver or land. You can pin him in his deployment zone, and then charge him the next turn. Also, they drop Str 10 Ap 1 Orbital bombardments. What's new is the IC priests and cheap IC primaris psykers you can attach to them, give them Preferred Enemy, and orders which make them power level Tau in the shooting phase.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xeno armies aren't going anywhere in the current meta .... even if there is a shift from death stars, xenos armies still have some of the better lords of war from escalation which makes the argument of IG + Knights are better than Xenos an invalid argument.

Remember the Escalation event at Adepticon? No? That's because it mustered a grand total of 13 players. No one cares about Escalation in Tournament 40k.

ninjafiredragon wrote:
Um try seer star. Then try wave serpents. Then if your still not convinced try wraithknights, war walkers, hornets, crimson hunter, wraithguard, and then yes, fire dragons. Eldar deal with knights with ease.

I dont play tau, but if I did i woudnt be to worried at all. Hammer heads, rip tides, and broad sides all hurt you so bad. Knights are good vs tau, but wont win you the game.

Seer star is much better in objective missions, as it can split last turn and deny near every objective. And it actually doesnt beat down "all the other death stars in the game". Seer star would just go around your deathstar and do there thing, while beast pack goes strait to your so called death star and tears it apart.

Knights have been out for a while, and the competitive exeno armies havnt given a damn. IG "star" is definitely not the nail in the coffin. Go play some games.

Seerstar doesn't kill Knights, Knights kill seerstar. Wave Serpents glance it on 6's, they average like .2 Hull points a turn. Wraithknights are their best bet, but Knights are equally dangerous to WKs. Hornets... besides being Forge World, don't do so great due to Ion Shield. Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, and Crimson Hunters don't appear in competitive lists. Eldar don't have access to any real Knight hunters.

If I played Tau, I would. No one runs Hammerheads, and a single shot vs 4+ invuln is a bad idea. Riptides get wrecked hard by Knights, and Broadsides are even worse unless you go Railguns, but no one does.

Seerstar won't be alive in the last turn. Beastpack cannot beat the IG star in close combat, and that's the only advantage they have. I have played some games, actually, and haven't lost to a Beastpack or Seer Council in a tournament for 8 games. Do you even 40k bro?

greyknight12 wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I'm sorry but Venomspam hasn't been competitive for a long time, and still isn't. Dark Lances aren't effective Knight killers, either, it's called Ion Shield.

You're the one who was concerned about DE in the OP, we already know that DE isn't the "top-tier" army. And while Dark lances may not be the best, they're still pretty good, and you can take alot of them.

1-2 Chapter Masters, Meltabomb/ Axe sarges, 2 Inquisitors (Psychotroke+Rad, maybe Coteaz), 1-3 Primaris Psykers rolling Div/Tele/Bio, 3 Priests and 50 ablative guardsmen.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Your deathstar is dead for the same reasons draigowing is...it's not very fast. Your saves are only re-rolled in melee, so serpent spam, grav spam, and tau sheer volume of fire will knock you down. Once your chapter master is dead, even boltguns will shred what's left.

There is no way Paladinstar will get there intact, considering all the Preferred Enemy shooting.And if they do, I'll be tanking wounds on a 2+ and 3++ rerollable save

That's very true, of course a modern dragiowing would probably be sporting those fancy grenades too. But you'll have been dealing with twin-linked S5 bolters and psycannons too (on majority toughness 3). And most of the current deathstars are fast enough to avoid you.

Screamerstar is probably the most mediocre deathstar in close combat. In any case, there will be a ton of (instant death) precision attacks going down on the grimoire holder, and he can't re-roll his look out sir save...

Yep, depending on how the precision shot order is ruled (I'm guessing you have a guy giving orders somewhere, too). If every shot IS a precision shot, then yeah you can kill him. But if only 6s are...once he's in combat he will tie you up all game. And like all deathstars, this one's pretty expensive.

I might be wrong, and these imperial deathstars will dominate the tournament scene in the coming months. But I'm pretty sure I'm not.

Assuming Prescience, lasguns, and preferred enemy for the guard, here's draigowing paladinstar shooting vs. yours:slim. I use Draigowing as an example not because it's awesome, but because it's obsolete for many of the same reasons I thin your deathstar isn't as good as you think it is.

Actually, you suggested Venomspam and Dark Lances, neither of which are competitive builds. Beastpack is the only DE concern I named, and this build beats it hands down.

Add in Cypher for the infiltrate and suddenly the Deathstar can be anywhere. Also, unlike other deathstars, it's scoring, so it doesn't really have to move beyond the midfield relic or other home objectives.

Also, unlike other deathstars it doesn't matter if the guardsmen/conscripts die, as long as 1 is left by the end of the game to score for you. It's effectiveness is not reduced by casualties because the main punch comes from the ICs in it and the orders/buffs you give them.

You're forgetting to include the two twin-linked Str 10 Preferred enemy AP 1 orbital bombardments which will pretty much kill the Draigowing dead without lasguns.

Also, Draigowing can't beat it in cc because they can't hit and run or re-roll saves.

RAW, the precision shot order means every single firing weapon that wounds is allocated to a model chosen by you as of this moment in time.

Once in combat, the Screamerstar/Ovesastar is going to be buggered.

koooaei wrote:Death-Blob was good even before the release, now it's gotten better. I used this build:

50-strong platoon (3 meltas, 3 power axes on sarges, 30 krak nades, 2 vox casters to more reliably get orders cause comissar lord ain't alwayz around).
Xeno inquisitor with all the nades, ML1, 3 servo-sculls, power-armor, liber heresius for scout move, counter-attack and other useful stuff.
Tigurius to get 4++ or fnp+relentless or other stuff he can get.

Sometimes i also took a hell lot of conscripts with comissar lord.

All in all, platoon with nades and buffed to boot are a hard nut to crack. Actually, i've lost count on how many mc's and bikes they've killed in mellee with grenades and bayonetes. They endure shooting rather well if you get 4++, they won't threaten wave serpent spam by themselves but hey, you got other stuff for that role.

Knights are difficult to judge. On one hand, they're gonca cause alot of problems to orkses, csm, tyranids and other low-mid-tier guyz, also will be a hard counter to daemons cause can pretty much ignore invuls in mellee. But i don't see how knights are breaking tau, eldar and necrons gameplay. Probably, wraithwing and seer council won't be that effective but that's it. Xeno shooting power and mobility is still enough to reliably lay down knights at range in a couple of turns and they're definitely not frightened by 2 battlecannons that don't ignore cover.

Now add Chapter Masters and Cypher and see the power level of your Blob go through the roof.

The Knights are just the offset threat to accompany your Deathstar, which will be close enough the enemy isn't going to be shooting at your Knight.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:I have to chime in on the laughable survivability of Imperial Knights. Jam up their movement with something disposable like a Wyvern or an empty Rhino, then hit them from two sides with normal anti-tank weapons and watch them crumple. I've killed two so far. One died to 3 MM attack bikes in its' side arc while it stared down a pair of Stormravens from the front. The second caught a meltagun and krak missile to the face while two Vanquishers shot it from the side. In both cases, I stripped off six hull points in a single turn of shooting.

I'd imagine two Wraithknights, or a Tank Hunter Bursttide will have absolutely zero problems with one. The same will be true to Chaos Daemons. Puppetmaster something else into shooting the knight in the back or side while the shield is forward and call it a day.

You've played against two Knights and got lucky dice rolls, and then call their survivability laughable? One good turn of rolling can negate your entire armies' shooting. Knights are far harder to take down than you think, especially if you're being pressured by a massive IG deathstar.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Oh I am so pissed that Orks flat out cannot get 'looted' knights to go crap on the screamerstar stuff with

or that the dark mechanicum cannot make Chaos Knights or Daemon Knights

.....wow....just wow.
Ok you dont know eldar apparently and thats fine. Whats not fine is pretending you do.
"Seerstar doesnt kill knights, Knights kill seerstar"
On what basis? Seer star has 9 twin linked lascannons that can maneuver to your juicy side armor.
Nearly everything eldar has is mobile enough to get your side armor and then just demolish the knight.
With the wraithknight i wouldn't assualt it unless i have to.
Like I said, you get 4+ invul from one side. One. Im going to split my army to attack it from 3 sides. You get a 4+ invul from 1/3 of those attacks.
Of course seerstar will survive all game. You cant catch it, you cant shoot it, you cant kill it. Then I split and win. Simple.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
.....wow....just wow.
Ok you dont know eldar apparently and thats fine. Whats not fine is pretending you do.
"Seerstar doesnt kill knights, Knights kill seerstar"
On what basis? Seer star has 9 twin linked lascannons that can maneuver to your juicy side armor.
Nearly everything eldar has is mobile enough to get your side armor and then just demolish the knight.
With the wraithknight i wouldn't assualt it unless i have to.
Like I said, you get 4+ invul from one side. One. Im going to split my army to attack it from 3 sides. You get a 4+ invul from 1/3 of those attacks.
Of course seerstar will survive all game. You cant catch it, you cant shoot it, you cant kill it. Then I split and win. Simple.

How precisely are you going to get within singing spear range of the Knight when I bubblewrap it with my blob? Very few seer councils also take 9 Spears.

You also have to roll to pen, and you don't have tank hunter. And even then, 1/2 your pens/glances won't go through.

You can catch the seerstar, it's not the bloody gingerbread man. You can shoot it, and you can kill it. It's not difficult with IG blobs and Knights.

bubblewrapping your knight would absolutely slow it down and keep it out of cc where it is most effective/can't be shot.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
.....wow....just wow.
Ok you dont know eldar apparently and thats fine. Whats not fine is pretending you do.
"Seerstar doesnt kill knights, Knights kill seerstar"
On what basis? Seer star has 9 twin linked lascannons that can maneuver to your juicy side armor.
Nearly everything eldar has is mobile enough to get your side armor and then just demolish the knight.
With the wraithknight i wouldn't assualt it unless i have to.
Like I said, you get 4+ invul from one side. One. Im going to split my army to attack it from 3 sides. You get a 4+ invul from 1/3 of those attacks.
Of course seerstar will survive all game. You cant catch it, you cant shoot it, you cant kill it. Then I split and win. Simple.

How precisely are you going to get within singing spear range of the Knight when I bubblewrap it with my blob? Very few seer councils also take 9 Spears.

You also have to roll to pen, and you don't have tank hunter. And even then, 1/2 your pens/glances won't go through.

You can catch the seerstar, it's not the bloody gingerbread man. You can shoot it, and you can kill it. It's not difficult with IG blobs and Knights.

9 singing spears guided = 8.166 hits. =5.444 hullpints, with 4 pens. You get to choose one side for the 4+. of course you choose that side, which reduces hullpoints removed to 2.722 hull points removed, and 2 pens.
Then the wraithknight shoots from other side. 1.333 hits = 1.111 hull points removed, = .889 pens.
Then wave serpents (well say only 2) shoot at it from same side as the wraithknight. scatter laser and shuiken cannon=12.444 hits = 2.074 hull points

And look at that, without even having to lower the serpent shields, your knight is dead.

I'm generally in agreement with you Asmodai, but I'm not sure I buy that Knights > Seer Council. Seer Council generally kills a Knight in melee based on both my own play testing and all the play testing I've seen. All that prescienced (and sometimes Doomed) armorbane at I5 is too much. Sure, sometimes the D-splosion takes care of it, but if your counter is a scatter dice, I don't think you have a counter...

I can't tell if your serious or trolling at this point lol.

IG Blobs didn't break the game in the past codex and while super fun to play aren't going to now.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Oh I am so pissed that Orks flat out cannot get 'looted' knights to go crap on the screamerstar stuff with

It is very sad, especially considering the conversion opportunities are so abundant. I'd do it anyway, and then play it as Desperate. Not sure how lenient your group is, may be worth asking.

Sorry to go off-topic there.

 rryannn wrote:
bubblewrapping your knight would absolutely slow it down and keep it out of cc where it is most effective/can't be shot.

with shoot casualties coming off the front, it isn't terribly hard to assault through bubble wrap, unless it is pretty thick. When it is thick is does really hinder the mobility of what is behind it.