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 Ashiraya wrote:

You make Wave Serpents very happy.

Some specific fine-tuning may be required in some edge cases, yes. I just kind of assumed people were aware of that but I suppose I'll state it now.

 Kain wrote:

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
While I do think Walkers need a boost, perhaps it's an apt time to reconsider Monstrous Creatures too?

Perhaps they should only be AP3 generally?

This results in massively punishing the Tyranids for the sins of other armies, which I generally dislike for obvious reasons.

It also goes against years of game design. MCs ignored armor or got huge modifiers against saves for as long as I can remember.

I'd rather AV>12 Walkers be competitive with MCs, rather than MCs brought down to Walker level.

To be fair they could always give Tyranids AP2 back with a codex specific special rule. Call it "Apex Predator" or something.

nobody wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
While I do think Walkers need a boost, perhaps it's an apt time to reconsider Monstrous Creatures too?

Perhaps they should only be AP3 generally?

This results in massively punishing the Tyranids for the sins of other armies, which I generally dislike for obvious reasons.

It also goes against years of game design. MCs ignored armor or got huge modifiers against saves for as long as I can remember.

I'd rather AV>12 Walkers be competitive with MCs, rather than MCs brought down to Walker level.

To be fair they could always give Tyranids AP2 back with a codex specific special rule. Call it "Apex Predator" or something.

There are a lot of bad MCs in the game too. DE have 2, slow T7, bad guns, not being AP2 would take them from casual to never taken off the shelf.



Really the whole system, vehicles and MCs and all of the associated units need to be rethought. Most walkers/MCs fit into either stupidly good or stupidly bad.

 Exergy wrote:

nobody wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
While I do think Walkers need a boost, perhaps it's an apt time to reconsider Monstrous Creatures too?

Perhaps they should only be AP3 generally?

This results in massively punishing the Tyranids for the sins of other armies, which I generally dislike for obvious reasons.

It also goes against years of game design. MCs ignored armor or got huge modifiers against saves for as long as I can remember.

I'd rather AV>12 Walkers be competitive with MCs, rather than MCs brought down to Walker level.

To be fair they could always give Tyranids AP2 back with a codex specific special rule. Call it "Apex Predator" or something.

There are a lot of bad MCs in the game too. DE have 2, slow T7, bad guns, not being AP2 would take them from casual to never taken off the shelf.



Really the whole system, vehicles and MCs and all of the associated units need to be rethought. Most walkers/MCs fit into either stupidly good or stupidly bad.

I wouldn't even try to argue that there are bad MCs, however I'm open to the idea of making MCs AP3 across the board, and then using special rules (either on the model itself or a weapon they are given) to give the ones that need it AP2 back.

nobody wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

nobody wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
While I do think Walkers need a boost, perhaps it's an apt time to reconsider Monstrous Creatures too?
Perhaps they should only be AP3 generally?

This results in massively punishing the Tyranids for the sins of other armies, which I generally dislike for obvious reasons.
It also goes against years of game design. MCs ignored armor or got huge modifiers against saves for as long as I can remember.
I'd rather AV>12 Walkers be competitive with MCs, rather than MCs brought down to Walker level.

To be fair they could always give Tyranids AP2 back with a codex specific special rule. Call it "Apex Predator" or something.

There are a lot of bad MCs in the game too. DE have 2, slow T7, bad guns, not being AP2 would take them from casual to never taken off the shelf.
Really the whole system, vehicles and MCs and all of the associated units need to be rethought. Most walkers/MCs fit into either stupidly good or stupidly bad.

I wouldn't even try to argue that there are bad MCs, however I'm open to the idea of making MCs AP3 across the board, and then using special rules (either on the model itself or a weapon they are given) to give the ones that need it AP2 back.

That can work, the problem I see is MCs with 2+ saves and an invuln save. Riptides get a lot of protection and then they also have AP2 for some reason. Seems excessive for a shooty jump shoot jump suit.

Riptides should obviously not have AP2.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

You make Wave Serpents very happy.

Some specific fine-tuning may be required in some edge cases, yes. I just kind of assumed people were aware of that but I suppose I'll state it now.

Its a bad idea, it is too complex in the hull point/damage chart issue, and it doesn't actually make the game any better. Vehicles are fine, they aren't generally the powerhouse they were in 5th, but they still see frequent use, particularly offensive vehicles like leman russ variants and the basic dedicated transports. Walkers actually need to be buffed in large part because pseudo walkers keep getting MC which is pretty much objectively better. Your ideas don't really make walkers better, they just make them a worse choice compared to other vehicles. Why take an armoured sentinel when a Leman russ is better armed, better armoured, has double the hull points and is harder to kill without simply stripping its hull points?

When vehicles are so monumentally crappy that even marines and dark eldar are running foot slogging lists most of the time I will support a buff.

Buttons wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

You make Wave Serpents very happy.

Some specific fine-tuning may be required in some edge cases, yes. I just kind of assumed people were aware of that but I suppose I'll state it now.

Its a bad idea, it is too complex in the hull point/damage chart issue, and it doesn't actually make the game any better. Vehicles are fine, they aren't generally the powerhouse they were in 5th, but they still see frequent use, particularly offensive vehicles like leman russ variants and the basic dedicated transports. Walkers actually need to be buffed in large part because pseudo walkers keep getting MC which is pretty much objectively better. Your ideas don't really make walkers better, they just make them a worse choice compared to other vehicles. Why take an armoured sentinel when a Leman russ is better armed, better armoured, has double the hull points and is harder to kill without simply stripping its hull points?

When vehicles are so monumentally crappy that even marines and dark eldar are running foot slogging lists most of the time I will support a buff.

I'm pretty sure that most of the standard Marine lists at this point are eschewing Rhino chassis and Land Raider chassis vehicles for foot sloggers (or bikes).

I mean, there's the occasional Stalker, or LS Storm for scouts, but the only vehicles I really see anymore for Marines tend to be Stormtalons, Stormravens, and Drop Pods.

My Marines can't use Rhinos or Razorbacks, cause they blow up so easily.

My Eldar can't use Serpents cause they're broken.

Much armies should be more fun than they are right now.

Buttons wrote:


When vehicles are so monumentally crappy that even marines and dark eldar are running foot slogging lists most of the time I will support a buff.

I suppose you just have phenomenally better luck than I do, then. Any non-flying vehicle short of a land raider that I set on the table is gone by turn 2, or 3 at the latest. The only time any of them survive to turn 4+ is if I use an armor spam list, such as assault squads in razorbacks, predators, baal preds, and furioso librarians with wings. I tend to just use jump pack spam for my BA now, even though my first bought items for my army were the 6 razorbacks.

Additionally, one of my close friends is a dedicated dark eldar player, and switched to foot slogging lists a few months ago, with the exception of 3 ravagers being auto-includes for him.

So there you are. Marines and dark eldar, as requested.