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As it is, units like Honour Guard and Chosen retain WS/BS4, which is rather low. Why should an Honour Guard or Vanguard Veteran not be significantly more skilled with a blade than a Ork Boy is? Why should a Sternguard Veteran not be better at aiming than a Commissar is?

This is an easy fix to make things fluffier.

Vanguard Veterans gain WS5

Sternguard Veterans gain BS5

Honour Guard gain WS and BS 5 (Chapter Champion gains WS6)

Assault Terminators and Wolf Guard Terminators gain WS5

Tactical Terminators, Chaos Terminators and Deathwing Terminators can choose WS5 or BS5 when building the list

Chosen can also choose between WS5 or BS5 when designing the list

Points values can be adjusted accordingly, this is just a change to make things fluffier. Veterans' efficiency should be shown by more than just their equipment. They are also more skilled at their craft!

Sternguard and Honour Guard would need a points increase, Chosen too though perhaps to a lesser degree, Vanguard would need a low if any points increase, and Termies would need a points increase depending on type.

The WS/BS stat scales being the weird and fuzzy things they are this is a plausible change, but with the logical argument behind it GK Purifiers and Terminators, and possibly Trueborn and Hekiatrix ought to get the benefit as well.

Agreed on GK, but I am not sure about DE, someone more experienced with their lore may be able to fill me in on that.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The WS/BS stat scales being the weird and fuzzy things they are this is a plausible change, but with the logical argument behind it GK Purifiers and Terminators, and possibly Trueborn and Hekiatrix ought to get the benefit as well.

Regular Wyches, Aspect Warriors.... a lot of things could use WS BS 5.

I think the real problem is not the lack of BS 5, it is how common BS 4 is.

IG, Vets get BS 4. Just a normal human, with some training and has actually seen combat, is BS 4. No advanced tracking or optics system, no implants with heightened senses. Also just a human life span, been training with a lasgun for 10 years maybe?

If a vet is BS 4, every space marine should be BS 5, given they have 10X more training, implants for senses, advanced mechanical sights and more combat experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Agreed on GK, but I am not sure about DE, someone more experienced with their lore may be able to fill me in on that.

Wyches live for thousands of years, spending every day in a gladitorial arena. Bloodbrides are the older, more skilled wyches some of whom were alive to remember the fall. 15,000 years of combat training.

Trueborn are similarly experienced but specialize in ranged combat. They have the best gear eldar technology can provide. There isnt a reason why they would ever miss.

WS/BS5 for Hekatrices and Trueborn too, then.

Terminators and vanaguard veterans would need a price drop and a bump to WS/BS to be playable. Chaos terminators barely see play at 31 points and Imperials pay 40 points. Terminators should be ws5/bs5 at 30 points and they would be playable but far from ground breaking.

Agtthot wrote:
Terminators and vanaguard veterans would need a price drop and a bump to WS/BS to be playable. Chaos terminators barely see play at 31 points and Imperials pay 40 points. Terminators should be ws5/bs5 at 30 points and they would be playable but far from ground breaking.

Hammernators and Deathwing are very playable as-is, I'd suggest pumping one of WS/BS and leaving the price as is there. Chaos Terminators barely see play at 31 points because they have no access to Storm Shields (they're 31pts in the first place because they don't have free power fists), dropping loyalist Terminators to 30pts with the free thunderhammer and storm shield would be frankly absurd. Vanguard Vets with WS5 and a way to get upgrade weapons at less than fifteen points would be more playable than they are now.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Agtthot wrote:
Terminators and vanaguard veterans would need a price drop and a bump to WS/BS to be playable. Chaos terminators barely see play at 31 points and Imperials pay 40 points. Terminators should be ws5/bs5 at 30 points and they would be playable but far from ground breaking.

Hammernators and Deathwing are very playable as-is, I'd suggest pumping one of WS/BS and leaving the price as is there. Chaos Terminators barely see play at 31 points because they have no access to Storm Shields (they're 31pts in the first place because they don't have free power fists), dropping loyalist Terminators to 30pts with the free thunderhammer and storm shield would be frankly absurd. Vanguard Vets with WS5 and a way to get upgrade weapons at less than fifteen points would be more playable than they are now.

...Deathwing is competitive?

I'm pretty sure it's widely regarded as a straight garbage list.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Agtthot wrote:
Terminators and vanaguard veterans would need a price drop and a bump to WS/BS to be playable. Chaos terminators barely see play at 31 points and Imperials pay 40 points. Terminators should be ws5/bs5 at 30 points and they would be playable but far from ground breaking.

Hammernators and Deathwing are very playable as-is, I'd suggest pumping one of WS/BS and leaving the price as is there. Chaos Terminators barely see play at 31 points because they have no access to Storm Shields (they're 31pts in the first place because they don't have free power fists), dropping loyalist Terminators to 30pts with the free thunderhammer and storm shield would be frankly absurd. Vanguard Vets with WS5 and a way to get upgrade weapons at less than fifteen points would be more playable than they are now.

I can't remember any terminator list in the past few years being even remotely competitive. Draigo and paladins are 55 points with 2 wounds, psyker level, force weapons, and holocaust. Against non-ap2 attacks they are basically 27.5 points terminators. Even at the rate of 27.5 points per bolter wound, they are terribly inefficient.

Deathwing and draigowing are both terrible right now. Terminators, even THSS, would be balanced at 30 points, and still probably wouldn't see play in a Taudar/Grav Spam meta.

 Exergy wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The WS/BS stat scales being the weird and fuzzy things they are this is a plausible change, but with the logical argument behind it GK Purifiers and Terminators, and possibly Trueborn and Hekiatrix ought to get the benefit as well.

Regular Wyches, Aspect Warriors.... a lot of things could use WS BS 5.

I think the real problem is not the lack of BS 5, it is how common BS 4 is.

IG, Vets get BS 4. Just a normal human, with some training and has actually seen combat, is BS 4. No advanced tracking or optics system, no implants with heightened senses. Also just a human life span, been training with a lasgun for 10 years maybe?

If a vet is BS 4, every space marine should be BS 5, given they have 10X more training, implants for senses, advanced mechanical sights and more combat experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Agreed on GK, but I am not sure about DE, someone more experienced with their lore may be able to fill me in on that.

Wyches live for thousands of years, spending every day in a gladitorial arena. Bloodbrides are the older, more skilled wyches some of whom were alive to remember the fall. 15,000 years of combat training.

Trueborn are similarly experienced but specialize in ranged combat. They have the best gear eldar technology can provide. There isnt a reason why they would ever miss.

How do mechanical sights account in combat? Being able to see your enemy more clearly doesn't help for squat. You have to take into account that Space Marines are slow, they're wearing big, mechanical armour. Veterans are not, veterans are fast, they can dart around things easily and move quicker in combat. It's not just experience that makes your WS go up, it's agility too.
Bloodbrides should be WS10 but, yano.. They're not going to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Agtthot wrote:
Terminators and vanaguard veterans would need a price drop and a bump to WS/BS to be playable. Chaos terminators barely see play at 31 points and Imperials pay 40 points. Terminators should be ws5/bs5 at 30 points and they would be playable but far from ground breaking.

Hammernators and Deathwing are very playable as-is, I'd suggest pumping one of WS/BS and leaving the price as is there. Chaos Terminators barely see play at 31 points because they have no access to Storm Shields (they're 31pts in the first place because they don't have free power fists), dropping loyalist Terminators to 30pts with the free thunderhammer and storm shield would be frankly absurd. Vanguard Vets with WS5 and a way to get upgrade weapons at less than fifteen points would be more playable than they are now.

...Deathwing is competitive?

I'm pretty sure it's widely regarded as a straight garbage list.

Deathwing are worse than BT Black Tide, and PA is crap.

..."Garbage list" and "can't beat Tau in a straight fight" are entirely different things. I'm focusing on "playable" here, not "compete with the top Codexes in tournament play." Deathwing works today because you can mix some nasty guns in with hammers and shields and you've got access to Contemptor Dreads, they're not about to win a Grand Tournament but they're also not a "garbage list". Hammernators are by no means an effective basis for an army list but they're also a durable assault unit with an easy way of getting close enough to the enemy to threaten assault, they don't perform as well as Sternguard in the Elites slot but they're also not ten points overpriced.

Draigowing, on the other hand, got its teeth yanked out by the loss of Musical Wounds and never recovered, Loganwing never got off the ground due to the lack of mobility, and regular GK Terminators are outgunned for their points by PAGK, Purifiers, and Purgators.

Fyi, Brotherofbone, SM are not slow.

PA does not slow them down at all thanks to black carapace.

Sternguard are much, much faster than IG vets.

Same with Vanguard.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
..."Garbage list" and "can't beat Tau in a straight fight" are entirely different things. I'm focusing on "playable" here, not "compete with the top Codexes in tournament play." Deathwing works today because you can mix some nasty guns in with hammers and shields and you've got access to Contemptor Dreads, they're not about to win a Grand Tournament but they're also not a "garbage list". Hammernators are by no means an effective basis for an army list but they're also a durable assault unit with an easy way of getting close enough to the enemy to threaten assault, they don't perform as well as Sternguard in the Elites slot but they're also not ten points overpriced.

Draigowing, on the other hand, got its teeth yanked out by the loss of Musical Wounds and never recovered, Loganwing never got off the ground due to the lack of mobility, and regular GK Terminators are outgunned for their points by PAGK, Purifiers, and Purgators.

I've tabled deathwing I've ever played them. My competitive buddy who has won 1st place at tournaments played a deathwing w/ landraider list to 0-3. Paying 225 points for 5 T4 wounds that can't even shoot sucks, period. Adding in another 30 points for a cyclone you shoot once before you either assault or die doesn't help. Deathwing and assault terminators are awesome fluff, awesome paint scheme etc, but they suck at 45 points each.

Besides case scenario your 265 point transport survives a turn of shooting, you unload and survive overwatch, and your 225 point unit kills whatever you charge. Maybe it's a 140pt predator, maybe it's a 300pt unit of broadsides with drones. Then afterwards you stand around in their deployment zone and die to shooting since every gun in the game wounds you.

They are incredibly difficult to ever make their points back because they are overpriced, and 10 points is on the low end of how big a drop it'd take to be playable.

Agtthot wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
..."Garbage list" and "can't beat Tau in a straight fight" are entirely different things. I'm focusing on "playable" here, not "compete with the top Codexes in tournament play." Deathwing works today because you can mix some nasty guns in with hammers and shields and you've got access to Contemptor Dreads, they're not about to win a Grand Tournament but they're also not a "garbage list". Hammernators are by no means an effective basis for an army list but they're also a durable assault unit with an easy way of getting close enough to the enemy to threaten assault, they don't perform as well as Sternguard in the Elites slot but they're also not ten points overpriced.

Draigowing, on the other hand, got its teeth yanked out by the loss of Musical Wounds and never recovered, Loganwing never got off the ground due to the lack of mobility, and regular GK Terminators are outgunned for their points by PAGK, Purifiers, and Purgators.

I've tabled deathwing I've ever played them. My competitive buddy who has won 1st place at tournaments played a deathwing w/ landraider list to 0-3. Paying 225 points for 5 T4 wounds that can't even shoot sucks, period. Adding in another 30 points for a cyclone you shoot once before you either assault or die doesn't help. Deathwing and assault terminators are awesome fluff, awesome paint scheme etc, but they suck at 45 points each.

Besides case scenario your 265 point transport survives a turn of shooting, you unload and survive overwatch, and your 225 point unit kills whatever you charge. Maybe it's a 140pt predator, maybe it's a 300pt unit of broadsides with drones. Then afterwards you stand around in their deployment zone and die to shooting since every gun in the game wounds you.

They are incredibly difficult to ever make their points back because they are overpriced, and 10 points is on the low end of how big a drop it'd take to be playable.

The issue is in philosophy and list construction, not in the Deathwing themselves. Land Raiders as transports and playing assuming you're going to get to assault anything are both dumb ideas this edition; I've got a friend who runs Belial, three Contemptors, a Librarian, and several Deathwing squads set up to use the Storm Shields to wall off the Cyclone launchers; it's not a strategy that's playable in small games but it's startlingly effective shooting and can take a punch quite well. It's not going to beat three Riptides but it's an effective list.

3 contemptors is effective. Change those deathwing to ravenwing (who are 6pts overpriced compared to the vanilla dex) and the list will be even better.

Deathwing knights get +1 toughness and +1 WS and are only 2pts more than regular. I'm not saying terminators aren't good. 5 terminators would beat 5 tactical marines obviously. I'm saying if they got a price drop or a stat increase, they could finally see play on competitive tables. Adds some gameplay crunch to their fluff feats.

Honestly the only reason I can think of that they probably don't, is because everyone already has the models and it wouldn't drive sales.

Agtthot wrote:
3 contemptors is effective. Change those deathwing to ravenwing (who are 6pts overpriced compared to the vanilla dex) and the list will be even better.

Deathwing knights get +1 toughness and +1 WS and are only 2pts more than regular. I'm not saying terminators aren't good. 5 terminators would beat 5 tactical marines obviously. I'm saying if they got a price drop or a stat increase, they could finally see play on competitive tables. Adds some gameplay crunch to their fluff feats.

Honestly the only reason I can think of that they probably don't, is because everyone already has the models and it wouldn't drive sales.

It's closer to the fact that GW switches around what strategies work best every edition and we're in a low spot in the cycle for melee units, and most of the price on Terminators comes from their expensive melee-focused stuff.