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Fair enough, I respect that. We shall wait and see what happens!

 oni wrote:
2. Codex: MT and Codex: AS are different. C:MT allows for a stand alone / primary detachment of Scions with an HQ (there own order system), troops w/ opt. transport, Valkyrie fast attack and some formations. C:AM only allow the Scions to be taken as an elites choice.

One page. Maybe two, right? That's difference. Cost aside, it's not anything that could not be included in the core IG rulebook or could have been found for $4 in the white dwarf.

Games Workshop is literally playing a semantics game at this point with "Codex", "Supplement", "Dataslate" and what's found in the White Dwarf. Each release contains almost identical rules found in other print materials, at various cost points, and because of the medium and identifying label, they are priced accordingly.

Outside of some worthless photos, a small grip of fluff readily found on a wiki, the Imperial Knights codex differed from the White Dwarf by one page. The Super Heavy Walker rules don't count as that's been in both Apoc and Escalation, the latter being a reprint of the former almost entirely. I guess the concerns would all be mitigated if it is priced accoridingly. There's not reason for stormtroopers to be a codex. That would be fitting of the dataslate title, a few page .pdf, for maybe $5 and also copied in the White Dwarf.

This entiring thread is about mincing those words. At the end of the day, the real discussion is what are the rules GW produce worth. I think a great deal of us have no problem dropping $4 for the information contained in the White Dwarf magazines. We can probably justify $15 for a digital true supplement to our core books, but they have to feel like something truly above and beyond what should/could have been in a core codex of yesteryear. Then these new "5 page of rules" codecis are flat out rip-offs, there's no other way to classify them. They are game books and as such they are failures for those purposes.

I just want the $33 soft covers back. Keep the $100 limited editions to milk money, $50 for the collector, and $33 for soft covers for the game players. And stop giving the perception of timing releases to maxmize the milking of the player base. Let's be honest, how many people would seriously consider paying $50 for Stormtroopers when they exist verbatum in the IG book save one page you can find on forums or on a google image search?

^ exalted

"YOURE CRAZY!" THEY SAID! "NO WAY GW WOULD DO A LIMITED EDITION CODEX" THEY SAID!

WELL WHOSE LAUGHING NOW?!?!/

 TheKbob wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The Stormtroopers codex isn't redundant to non-IG players though. Inq players can get a lot of mileage out of it (they can basically build the a C:WH Inq/Stormtroopers army from 3rd with better toys now) for example. In fact anyone who wants to field Stormtroopers without needing a bunch of Guard has a utility for it.

It's only the Guard players who don't really need the book.

I beg to differ. Look at the major statement being thrown around: "Grab the orders and you're done."

That's essentially it. Nothing is different that cannot be found on one page to play the storm troopers out of the IG book. GW would know this, thus make a special splat book, make is limited print because you know it's very light in original material, and kick it out the door for $50 prior to the release of the parent codex.

That isn't strictly true - there are book-specific formations too. At least one of which looked fairly kick-ass IIRC

Most of the codexes are only a few pages of rules when you get down to it, particularly if you already have the last version and are just buying an updated book, but to boil down the whole product to just its' unique rules - well, that might be right for you, but it isn't right for everybody. Some people like the fluff, pictures, etc. If you don't want it, more power to you - don't buy it - one assumes you didn't.

*edit* I can see you've gone further with this line of argument in subsequent posts - I still think the point stands. If you take a codex or other book simply as a rules delivery system then of course they seem expensive and no, of course you shouldn't buy them if that's all you're getting out of them, because to you they are simply poor value. However, your experience and tastes are not universal. Don't make the mistake of assuming they are.

Seems like MT is a lot like the Farsight Enclaves, in that it is $50 for a paragraph of rules. Well, not even really a paragraph as I can boil it down to a sentence: You can take Elite Unit X as Troops, but lose access to Signature Systems. In this instance they change up orders instead of Signature Systems.

I was the person who submitted the intital information to Natfka.

I ordered mine monday of last week no problem.

On Wednesday in my local GW someone came in and asked to order it. The manager tried to add it to the basket via the order point but was prompted with "no longer available" so he rang up GW to see if it was a site error.

He was then told that the item was limited edition and it was no longer available. This was the first he at the store had heard of it and was quite angry about it. Turns out most store managers had no idea it was Ltd Edition and where only told it was if they specifically asked GW.

Since this was posted on Naftka various other sources have been in contact with customer services to be told the exact same thing.



On another subject I really like this codex, it has the same amount of fluff and info as a standard codex along with various pictures etc. It is only on average about 30 pages less than a standard codex and that is due to less unit entries and model showcase pages. I feel the price could have been a little less but I really enjoyed sitting down with the book and reading through the fluff and if thats something you like then its great.

I plan to run it in conjunction with the Inquisitor codex to make an inquisitorial company.

Thanks for posting this here as well!

It'll simply encourage people to circulate pdf copies and print offs and not feel bad about it. GW is a bit short of good will at the moment.

Still shows in stock and available to order for me.

 Vash108 wrote:
Still shows in stock and available to order for me.

Perhaps you should read the thread as this has been covered a few times now. It is unavailable in many countries such as the UK, Australia etc.

As it stands America still has some for however long they last.

 steve1 wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:
Still shows in stock and available to order for me.

Perhaps you should read the thread as this has been covered a few times now. It is unavailable in many countries such as the UK, Australia etc.

As it stands America still has some for however long they last.

Maybe you should re-read the OP that claims it was removed from NA.

And then you can read the part where that was brought up too!

 Kroothawk wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
Lol, I just was able to order one....

To be precise, it sold out 6th April in North America, a day after release. We had several posts in different threads about it. Seems, they got another shipment from UK, which will last a few days more until sold out globally.


http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?392518-Militarum-Tempestus-Codex-Sold-Out

 Accolade wrote:
And then you can read the part where that was brought up too!

 Kroothawk wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
Lol, I just was able to order one....

To be precise, it sold out 6th April in North America, a day after release. We had several posts in different threads about it. Seems, they got another shipment from UK, which will last a few days more until sold out globally.


http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?392518-Militarum-Tempestus-Codex-Sold-Out

OK LOL

Just to be clear I'm not trying to give you grief vash...it's always hard to communicate clearly on the internet

If the stock is in fact limited, I'm curious how much longer we'll see it in the US.

I looked in and says Availability: Usually ships in 24hrs

 shasolenzabi wrote:
I looked in and says Availability: Usually ships in 24hrs

Only thing that didn't make it for me was not being able to take Vendetta's.

Valk is OK, but to make it an elite type army, needed the Vendetta.

 Bull0 wrote:
That isn't strictly true - there are book-specific formations too. At least one of which looked fairly kick-ass IIRC

Most of the codexes are only a few pages of rules when you get down to it, particularly if you already have the last version and are just buying an updated book, but to boil down the whole product to just its' unique rules - well, that might be right for you, but it isn't right for everybody. Some people like the fluff, pictures, etc. If you don't want it, more power to you - don't buy it - one assumes you didn't.

*edit* I can see you've gone further with this line of argument in subsequent posts - I still think the point stands. If you take a codex or other book simply as a rules delivery system then of course they seem expensive and no, of course you shouldn't buy them if that's all you're getting out of them, because to you they are simply poor value. However, your experience and tastes are not universal. Don't make the mistake of assuming they are.

I would retort with this rationalle:

Pictures are valueless. The more they are included in an army book, the more they are simply upping cost in color ink and the less actual content they provide the user. Why? We have multiple online repositories for modellers and painters of all level to provide free resources for tips, tricks, paint schemes, and more. They run the gammut of "anything goes" like DakkaDakka to more competitive focused sites like Puttyandpaint and CMON. I have seen far superior Imperial Knights on the internet shortly after release than I did in the White Dwarf and those I saw skimming the book. They are decorative adornment to these books.

The fluff is nearly valueless or of marginal value. Pure fluff is already offered at a better rate from the Black Library. You can obtain novels, novellas, and omnibusses dripping with lore and history stacked deep for far cheaper than the thinly written codecis (which are usually edited to have a large amount of gaps due to icons, photo-filler, and other aspects). Then you have codecis, such as the new 6E Nids, which have instances of pure copy and paste. For a long time Nids player, this presents nothing new to said player and almost no value (or negative value if they happened to delete their favorite units). There could be a case for new units and new codecis, however most of the new ones we have found are ripped out of existing codecis and bulked up a bit with filler. Most of the lore and dry history of 40k can also be referenced by three separate wiki resources. This is all without accounting that fluff is never advanced and actively retconned, for better or for worse, to add in new characters or units.

Meaning that removing these two elements, these codecis and supplements, as they are billed to the customer, are primarily rule books. We can get great photos of amazing model work from aspiring and award winning artists for free (they want to sell their services, don't they? ) and we can get the fluff from many internal and external offerings for cheaper and/or free.

So while I understand other people placing value to those aspects of a codex (I have read fluff in them and looked at pretty pictures), there actual value is rather low these days. And if you have already purchased 3 Space Marine codecis in the past, you're probably only buying the new one so that you can continue playing your army in the latest edition of the game.

 Ahtman wrote:
Seems like MT is a lot like the Farsight Enclaves, in that it is $50 for a paragraph of rules. Well, not even really a paragraph as I can boil it down to a sentence: You can take Elite Unit X as Troops, but lose access to Signature Systems. In this instance they change up orders instead of Signature Systems.

That may not be the best example seeing as how it also has 8 special characters in addition that most other supplements don't have. Granted some of them can be built from the core book IIRC but others are specific to the enclaves book and use equipment/gear/upgrades only present there. I still don't think it warrants the full price but compared to other ones it actually is chock full of unique stuff relatively speaking (although obviously not compared to a "real" codex).

 warboss wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
Seems like MT is a lot like the Farsight Enclaves, in that it is $50 for a paragraph of rules. Well, not even really a paragraph as I can boil it down to a sentence: You can take Elite Unit X as Troops, but lose access to Signature Systems. In this instance they change up orders instead of Signature Systems.

That may not be the best example seeing as how it also has 8 special characters in addition that most other supplements don't have.

They are special in that they have names, but it really boils down to Freaky Dude 1: Crisis Suit Twin Linked Meltas, Freaky Dude 2: Crisis Suit Twin Linked Burst Cannons, ect ect. The only special rule really is being able to take them as the body guard for Farsight and being able to put them in different units, which I just did with one sentence.

 Ahtman wrote:
Seems like MT is a lot like the Farsight Enclaves, in that it is $50 for a paragraph of rules. Well, not even really a paragraph as I can boil it down to a sentence: You can take Elite Unit X as Troops, but lose access to Signature Systems. In this instance they change up orders instead of Signature Systems.

More than that, kinda.

There's differences in organization and some special rules as well. Militarum Tempestus Command Squads in the AM book can only use their Clarion Vox-Net for MT Squads within their Platoons--and only the AM book can take the platoons for some reason. In the MT book though, Command Squads can use Clarion Vox-Net for any MT squads within range.

It's kind of a stretch to really discuss as a "difference" I guess, but that's what the two books say. As far as value perceived, I'm okay with having both the MT and AM books. It lets me field a more "elite" style army that is relatively similar to an Elysian force without the air support that the FW list normally brings.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
Seems like MT is a lot like the Farsight Enclaves, in that it is $50 for a paragraph of rules. Well, not even really a paragraph as I can boil it down to a sentence: You can take Elite Unit X as Troops, but lose access to Signature Systems. In this instance they change up orders instead of Signature Systems.

More than that, kinda.

Not really. I just looked at it and the 'special characters' are just specific load out suits you can take as the Bodyguard. The special rules covers pages 51-54, and if you remove fluff descriptions it would be just page 51 and maybe 52.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There's differences in organization and some special rules as well.

That is because they are different armies. I think somehow you conflated "they are similar in content", which they are, with "they are the exact same book".

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
Seems like MT is a lot like the Farsight Enclaves, in that it is $50 for a paragraph of rules. Well, not even really a paragraph as I can boil it down to a sentence: You can take Elite Unit X as Troops, but lose access to Signature Systems. In this instance they change up orders instead of Signature Systems.

More than that, kinda.

There's differences in organization and some special rules as well. Militarum Tempestus Command Squads in the AM book can only use their Clarion Vox-Net for MT Squads within their Platoons--and only the AM book can take the platoons for some reason. In the MT book though, Command Squads can use Clarion Vox-Net for any MT squads within range.

It's kind of a stretch to really discuss as a "difference" I guess, but that's what the two books say. As far as value perceived, I'm okay with having both the MT and AM books. It lets me field a more "elite" style army that is relatively similar to an Elysian force without the air support that the FW list normally brings.

I don't have any problem with the concepts, it's jsut that's it's $50 for what used to be chapter approved in a White Dwarf. And you got a painting guide and other neat stuff.

Fundmanetally, I think no one is really mad that GW is making us more content. Rather, more content that gives the perception of little intent of balance and charging a high premium that is the bad part.

Codex Elysians would be fantastic. I am glad that FW is less strict about their rules in at least how the dole them out. The IA books always feel like they are worth their higher price tag given most could crush small woodlen critters.

 TheKbob wrote:
I don't have any problem with the concepts, it's jsut that's it's $50 for what used to be chapter approved in a White Dwarf.

Agreed. 1/3 the fluff with 1/16th the rules with 100% of the cost of a codex is painful, and I say that owning one of the buggers.

 TheKbob wrote:
Codex Elysians would be fantastic.

Also agreed.

So, long story short, I was right - to you, the books aren't a good value proposition, because you don't get any benefit from the fluff, pictures, etc. You would prefer a cheaper and more effective living ruleset type configuration for 40k. That's fine. More power to you. It's only when you extrude from that that GW are "doing it wrong" or that nobody is happy that the whole thing comes off the rails a little. Like I said - your experience and tastes are by no means universal (I mean, ITT we've had a customer say first hand that they're essentially happy with the book).

So, no more printed MT book, and no non-iPad versions of it either. It's like GW is cutting costs so much that they don't even want to sell product at all.

I do have to wonder: If GW is trying to cut costs so much, why are they bothering with the fancy iPad versions with the bells and whistles? Surely it costs GW a lot less to whomp up a standard ereader version that can then be sold to EVERYBODY, regardless of platform.
Sure, most of the time I prefer the paper version for gaming, but when it's a book I already know well enough I don't need to reference much more than a summary page most of the time, then I like having it on my Kindle Fire HD.

 TheKbob wrote:

I would retort with this rationalle:

Pictures are valueless. The more they are included in an army book, the more they are simply upping cost in color ink and the less actual content they provide the user. Why? We have multiple online repositories for modellers and painters of all level to provide free resources for tips, tricks, paint schemes, and more. They run the gammut of "anything goes" like DakkaDakka to more competitive focused sites like Puttyandpaint and CMON. I have seen far superior Imperial Knights on the internet shortly after release than I did in the White Dwarf and those I saw skimming the book. They are decorative adornment to these books.

The fluff is nearly valueless or of marginal value. Pure fluff is already offered at a better rate from the Black Library. You can obtain novels, novellas, and omnibusses dripping with lore and history stacked deep for far cheaper than the thinly written codecis (which are usually edited to have a large amount of gaps due to icons, photo-filler, and other aspects). Then you have codecis, such as the new 6E Nids, which have instances of pure copy and paste. For a long time Nids player, this presents nothing new to said player and almost no value (or negative value if they happened to delete their favorite units). There could be a case for new units and new codecis, however most of the new ones we have found are ripped out of existing codecis and bulked up a bit with filler. Most of the lore and dry history of 40k can also be referenced by three separate wiki resources. This is all without accounting that fluff is never advanced and actively retconned, for better or for worse, to add in new characters or units.

Meaning that removing these two elements, these codecis and supplements, as they are billed to the customer, are primarily rule books. We can get great photos of amazing model work from aspiring and award winning artists for free (they want to sell their services, don't they? ) and we can get the fluff from many internal and external offerings for cheaper and/or free.

So while I understand other people placing value to those aspects of a codex (I have read fluff in them and looked at pretty pictures), there actual value is rather low these days. And if you have already purchased 3 Space Marine codecis in the past, you're probably only buying the new one so that you can continue playing your army in the latest edition of the game.

Value is subjective. It's all about tastes and preferences and trying to argue if something has value or not is basically useless.

Almost all of us can agree the codexes/supplements/ect are too expensive as is, even if you break it down for a few years of use (assuming 5 years between codexes and not switching you're paying $10/year. You used to pay $3/year in the same situation) regardless of why you feel that way, the issue is the price is at a point that pretty much all agree that its too damned high.

And the thing that blows my mind is that Black Library already does print on demand services. GW already has the means, 'in house', to handle a publication with limited sales potential, and chooses not to do it! WTF?

Does anyone need one while we can still buy them?