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Any model that is listed as a Character/Independent Character already have the Precision Shot special rule by rolling a natural roll of 6. But in one of the the relics for the IG, The Emperor's Benediction, it lists on the type of the weapon as "Precision Shot." Is there something special that happens when Precision Shot is actually listed? Or is it there to just remind us that we aim better on a 6?

Congratulations, Not like this has been asked time and a half again. You need to roll a 6 to do precision shots. I don't even know why this is up for contention among people, it's exactly how sniper rifles work.

There's debate on it. A precision shot is when you allocate the wound, characters get precision shots by rolling 6s to hit. The implication is that this gun allows you to assign all your shots (except snap shots) regardless of the roll to hit. The issue us that if you apply this logic the same is true of the Order that gives precision shot. The reverse that only 6s work hits problems because not only does this rule do nothing for the weapon it means the order does nothing as the roll of a 6 to hit is only activated by you being a character...

This is debated elsewhere, in the general AM thread I think. But the issue is whether or not Precision Shots allow you to allocate all hits, or only when you hit on a roll of 6. My interpretation is that The Emperor's Benediction and the Take Aim! order plainly allows you to allocate all hits, and that requirement to roll a six to get a precision shot is a rule only for characters and snipers.

I.e.: Take Aim!/Emperor's Benediction -> You have Precision Shot rule -> Allocate hits as you please.

Character/Sniper -> Roll of 6 to hit is a Precision Shot -> Allocate this hit as you please.

tgjensen wrote:
This is debated elsewhere, in the general AM thread I think. But the issue is whether or not Precision Shots allow you to allocate all hits, or only when you hit on a roll of 6. My interpretation is that The Emperor's Benediction and the Take Aim! order plainly allows you to allocate all hits, and that requirement to roll a six to get a precision shot is a rule only for characters and snipers.

I.e.: Take Aim!/Emperor's Benediction -> You have Precision Shot rule -> Allocate hits as you please.

Character/Sniper -> Roll of 6 to hit is a Precision Shot -> Allocate this hit as you please.

Let's take it back a notch and view it from a mechanics perspective. We're saying that a BS2 Conscript, when told to aim down the barrell of his rifle, hits his chosen target 100% more than a space marine captain who hits 150% more times often that that conscript?

Does nobody see how this can't be the intention?

For the record, the only comment on the Take Aim! orders in the general Inquiry's thread are my own, in the original post.

“PRECISION SHOTS
Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit, as long as it is in range and line of sight of the firing model, rather than following the normal rules for Wound allocation. This means that Precision Shots can be allocated against enemies with specialist weaponry, or even characters!

A character that has a Precision Shot Wound allocated to it can still make a Look Out, Sir roll.

Note that Snap Shots and shots from weapons that scatter, or do not roll To Hit, can never be Precision Shots.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Astra Militarum.” iBooks.


Precision shots do not need to roll a 6. Characters (and snipers) just GET precision shots on a roll of a 6.

Look at it this way- if the rule incorporated the roll of a 6, why does the Sniper entry list it getting Precision Shots on a roll of a 6? Why not just give it the Rending, Pinning and Precision shot special rule?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Let's take it back a notch and view it from a mechanics perspective. We're saying that a BS2 Conscript, when told to aim down the barrell of his rifle, hits his chosen target 100% more than a space marine captain who hits 150% more times often that that conscript?

Does nobody see how this can't be the intention?

That's a fluff perspective. And sure, I can see how it seems a little silly. Lots of things seem a little silly in warhammer, like Marines only hitting flyers at 25% efficiency while Orks have 50% efficiency.
And maybe it is what the writers intended. But it definitely is not what they wrote, so in this case they will have to release an errata to correct it.

Rules-wise, I cannot fathom how anyone can carefully read the rules and then not arrive at the conclusion that Precision Shot allows you to allocate all hits. The requirement to roll a 6 applies only to snipers and characters.

I would suggest that the gun does allow you to assign all the shots as the only passage I can find explaining precision shots is in the characters section of the rule book which says:

Main Rulebook pg63 wrote:If any of your character's shots roll 6 to hit, these are precision shots. Wounds from precision shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit.

So, if a gun has the precision shots rule, it implies that all shots from it are precision shots.
Also, if it wasn't this way, why would the gun have the rule? Only characters can take it, so there would be no point simply stating that the gun follows the normal rules.

As FlingitNow said, however, this brings up a problem with the new order. I imagine that it was supposed to give you precision shots on a 6, as making all shots precision shots seems very unbalanced.

I think we're going to need an FAQ on this one before we can know for sure.

 RaptorsTallon wrote:
I would suggest that the gun does allow you to assign all the shots as the only passage I can find explaining precision shots is in the characters section of the rule book which says:

Main Rulebook pg63 wrote:If any of your character's shots roll 6 to hit, these are precision shots. Wounds from precision shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit.

So, if a gun has the precision shots rule, it implies that all shots from it are precision shots.
Also, if it wasn't this way, why would the gun have the rule? Only characters can take it, so there would be no point simply stating that the gun follows the normal rules.

As FlingitNow said, however, this brings up a problem with the new order. I imagine that it was supposed to give you precision shots on a 6, as making all shots precision shots seems very unbalanced.

I think we're going to need an FAQ on this one before we can know for sure.

I have a feeling the emperor's benediction was meant to let the user automatically choose who is removed as a casualty for summary executions.

I expect a precision shots USR in the rumoured 7th edition rules clearing up the problems with these rules ...

on the other hand its gw so ...

 Brachiaraidos wrote:
“PRECISION SHOTS
Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit, as long as it is in range and line of sight of the firing model, rather than following the normal rules for Wound allocation. This means that Precision Shots can be allocated against enemies with specialist weaponry, or even characters!

A character that has a Precision Shot Wound allocated to it can still make a Look Out, Sir roll.

Note that Snap Shots and shots from weapons that scatter, or do not roll To Hit, can never be Precision Shots.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Astra Militarum.” iBooks.


Precision shots do not need to roll a 6. Characters (and snipers) just GET precision shots on a roll of a 6.

Look at it this way- if the rule incorporated the roll of a 6, why does the Sniper entry list it getting Precision Shots on a roll of a 6? Why not just give it the Rending, Pinning and Precision shot special rule?

This.

As precedent I would like to mention the rule for Sgt. Telion in the SM codex, all it says is all shots made by him are Precision Shots and I have always interpreted that to mean his controlling player always allocates his wounds, otherwise that rules is completely redundant as he is both a character and has a Sniper weapon.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
As precedent I would like to mention the rule for Sgt. Telion in the SM codex, all it says is all shots made by him are Precision Shots and I have always interpreted that to mean his controlling player always allocates his wounds, otherwise that rules is completely redundant as he is both a character and has a Sniper weapon.

That's how I would play it too basically. It's 1 shot from a bolt pistol, there isn't a lot the character is picking off with it, if at all, due the range and low rate of fire. Allowing them to allocate wounds with it isn't going to break the game or upset balance.

I think I've changed my mind a little. The Take Aim! Order gives the Model the precision shots special rule. The Precision shots ""special rule"" (nowhere in the rulebook is precision shots referred to as a special rule) states thus:

wounds from precision shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit,

So, here's our dillema, sparky. The Model has the precision shots special rule. Shots refers to ranged attacks, because precision strikes specify Close Combat Attacks. Clearly, the model is incapable of causing wounds outside of close combat because he is in fact, not a ranged weapon. If we were to take a literal interpretation of the rule, Take Aim! would do nothing because Take Aim! does not impact upon the model's shooting weapon, only the model itself (the model being able to shoot the weapon, the weapon being able to cause a wound).

Before you ask, yes, this argument does ensure that the emperor's benediction does in fact automatically precision shot. I am happy to cede that and I'm actually swayed to think it is the case.

Clearly, this is not the intention. I think we all agree on that? Then, we have to make adjustments.

Okay, so the model has precision shots, and because the model has the precision shots special rule, he can confer it to his weapon.

This works out to be A (take aim order) confers B (precision shots) to C (the target model), C uses D (a lasgun) so C confers B to D.

Just so as you know, the argument C+B=D+B (or C confers B to D) is not sound logic, as C and D are not the same thing.

I then refer you to this little snippet.

(Characters and shooting)

Characters shoot just like ordinary models of their type

We can then use this little statement, A = B to say B = A, or that the word Character is interchangeable with ordinary model, when an ordinary model has the Precision shots ""special rule"" made available to it, you read the word character as ordinary model when the word character refers to the model affected. (so, no, ordinary models don't get look out sirs as this would suggest without that change).

The rule now reads:

If any of your ordinary model's shots roll a 6 to hit, these are precision shots.

Where ordinary model is, clearly, any old grunt.

TL;DR:

Part one:
Take Aim gives the model the Precision shots rule
Precision shots does not confer to the shooter's weapon.
We have to use unsound and extremely generous logic to allow this rule to work there.

Part two:
Characters shoot just like ordinary models, ergo ordinary models shoot just like characters.
Characters require rolls of 6 to hit precisely, ergo ordinary models require rolls of 6 to hit precisely.
A = B therefore B = A, A Gets C on a 6, therefore B gets C on a 6.

Before you go telling me I'm making logical leaps, I am clearly only doing that in the first case.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
As precedent I would like to mention the rule for Sgt. Telion in the SM codex, all it says is all shots made by him are Precision Shots and I have always interpreted that to mean his controlling player always allocates his wounds, otherwise that rules is completely redundant as he is both a character and has a Sniper weapon.

Actually, the rule reads all shooting hits. Shots is used to describe a shooting attack before it has rolled to hit, shooting hits after it has rolled to hit. This clearly overrides the specific rule that reads if any of your characters roll 6 (sic) to hit.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
/snip

This entire post is useless bunk trying to avoid the problem that is GW made guardsmen crazy accurate. And the really big problem is with one unbelievably dodgy part.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

(Characters and shooting)
Characters shoot just like ordinary models of their typeWe can then use this little statement, A = B to say B = A, or that the word Character is interchangeable with ordinary model, when an ordinary model has the Precision shots ""special rule"" made available to it, you read the word character as ordinary model when the word character refers to the model affected. (so, no, ordinary models don't get look out sirs as this would suggest without that change).

The rule now reads:

If any of your ordinary model's shots roll a 6 to hit, these are precision shots.

The problem is, sonny jim, that A) The central logic of that part is wholly wrong, and some misplaced amalgamaition of lingual and mathematical staples does not justify it.

And B) If that IS true, it doesn't only apply to precision shots, so you just gave every single model in the game the ability to make precision shots on 6's with any none-template/auto-hit weapon. I think you don't quite grasp what you're saying here, but if you use your logic every infantry model always has this precision shots nonsense of yours all the time. And this is because characters do not HAVE the precision shots special rule, they just make them on 6's, see page 63 of BRB.


And all of it boils down to the fact that people keep trying to painstakingly crowbar in a sentance with no relevence to a rule. The Precision Shots specual rule does not have a universal special rule listing in any form, but we do have a description. Sentance one of the subheading Precision Shots (page 63, BRB) specifies that characters get them on 6's, as a part of the profile of being Infantry (character).

After that, we describe what precision shots are. See the endless quotes of the same. And precision shots are only and ever allocated wounds, not requiring 6's. See the listing of 'Presision Shots' From the ibook, again. When it's not in the context of a characters subheading, the 6's roll is always ignored.

Here, have it again again again.

“PRECISION SHOTS
Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit, as long as it is in range and line of sight of the firing model, rather than following the normal rules for Wound allocation. This means that Precision Shots can be allocated against enemies with specialist weaponry, or even characters!

A character that has a Precision Shot Wound allocated to it can still make a Look Out, Sir roll.

Note that Snap Shots and shots from weapons that scatter, or do not roll To Hit, can never be Precision Shots.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Astra Militarum.” iBooks.

I didn't give every single model the right to do precision shots, it needs to be given to them through a rule like take aim.

Remember it's a "special rule", now. you don't have a special rule until you are given it - otherwise, everyone would have stealth and shrouded and infiltrate.

I'll give you a proper response when it's not 2 am.

None of the logic I used was incorrectly formatted. The way take aim works is clearly A confers B to C, since C uses D, C confers B to D. It is unsound logic, and that was exactly the point - to make the take Aim! order work, we have to use invalid logic. To make take aim! force one to roll a 6 to hit, we only need valid logic.

The first argument is invalid, but we let it go because they don't seem to understand that Precision shots is not a special rule in the rulebook. The second arguments logic is completely valid, so why isn't it the case? Because you say so?

Also, it's *logic*, not mathematics that I'm using here. I don't mean Logic as in common sense, I mean logic as in the language.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
I didn't give every single model the right to do precision shots, it needs to be given to them through a rule like take aim.

Remember it's a "special rule", now. you don't have a special rule until you are given it - otherwise, everyone would have stealth and shrouded and infiltrate.

I'll give you a proper response when it's not 2 am.

None of the logic I used was incorrectly formatted. The way take aim works is clearly A confers B to C, since C uses D, C confers B to D. It is unsound logic, and that was exactly the point - to make the take Aim! order work, we have to use invalid logic. To make take aim! force one to roll a 6 to hit, we only need valid logic.

The first argument is invalid, but we let it go because they don't seem to understand that Precision shots is not a special rule in the rulebook. The second arguments logic is completely valid, so why isn't it the case? Because you say so?

Also, it's *logic*, not mathematics that I'm using here. I don't mean Logic as in common sense, I mean logic as in the language.

The problem is that it all falls down on the very first hurdle- implying that characters have the Precision Shot rule by default and therefore we can extrapolate from there, with all the misplaced logic.


Character do not have the Precision Shot special rule
Sniper Rifles do not have the precision shot special rule.
The Emperor's Benediction and "Take Aim!" DO have the precision shot special rule.

Characters/Snipers get to make Precision Shots on 6's, which means explicitly after rolling a 6 their attack becomes a precision shot.
If the inverse were true, the wording would have to be something akin to "Characters have the Precision shot special rule". Or "Any attack made with Precision Shot lets you allocate wounds on a roll of a 6 to hit"

So if anything has the Precision Shot special rule, all wounds are allocated. There is no way to argue this. It's already implicit with a dodgy prefacing sentence in the BRB, and the ibook Codex publication makes it explicit (always refer to a codex for the most recent, after all). The one absolute truth we have is that Precision Shots all allocate wounds all the time

See again:
“PRECISION SHOTS
Wounds from Precision Shots are allocated against a model (or models) of your choice in the target unit, as long as it is in range and line of sight of the firing model, rather than following the normal rules for Wound allocation. This means that Precision Shots can be allocated against enemies with specialist weaponry, or even characters!
A character that has a Precision Shot Wound allocated to it can still make a Look Out, Sir roll.
Note that Snap Shots and shots from weapons that scatter, or do not roll To Hit, can never be Precision Shots.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Astra Militarum.” iBooks."

So we have precision shots explicitly defined. They let you allocate wounds. So we can both agree that the Benediction works fine.

But you can't infer that giving it to models, with similarities between characters and any old grunt, works. Because it requires characters to start with a precision shot special rule to carry over, and they do not.

The underlying problem is that there wasn't a listing in USR to clarify this, and now there is. See above. That's what Precision Shots does, and characters make them on 6's.

And then we get onto the next problem; Application of rules. The model now has Precision Shot. The model rolls to hit. If it were a character, a roll of a 6 here would confer a Precision shot. But we don't need to roll said 6- we've already GOT precision shot. The roll to hit is not dependent on the weapon, so the lack of Precision Shot on the weapon is not an issue.

And we have precedent for special rules which function on weapons or models. Weapons with sniper when fired follow sniper rules, but a model with sniper gets sniper rules on any roll to hit. In this context, weapons fired with Precision Shot confer it to the attack, and models with Precision Shot get it with any weapon.



Either way- The Thread in Question has been resolutely polished off with 'The Benediction lets you allocate every wound'.

Can we all agree that there actually isn't a "Precision shots special rule", please? I don't even mean for the purposes of game play, I just mean from a completely notes as written standpoint. Take Aim doesn't refer to any actual special rule.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Can we all agree that there actually isn't a "Precision shots special rule", please? I don't even mean for the purposes of game play, I just mean from a completely notes as written standpoint. Take Aim doesn't refer to any actual special rule.

It's a rule, but not a "special rule" (as it's not in the "special rules" section of the rulebook), sure.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Can we all agree that there actually isn't a "Precision shots special rule", please? I don't even mean for the purposes of game play, I just mean from a completely notes as written standpoint. Take Aim doesn't refer to any actual special rule.

It's a rule, but not a "special rule" (as it's not in the "special rules" section of the rulebook), sure.

I'm using this as proof that I'm not losing my mind.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Can we all agree that there actually isn't a "Precision shots special rule", please? I don't even mean for the purposes of game play, I just mean from a completely notes as written standpoint. Take Aim doesn't refer to any actual special rule.

The AM Codex introduces it as a Special Rule even if it's not listed specifically under the Special Rules section of the BRB.

farrenj wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Can we all agree that there actually isn't a "Precision shots special rule", please? I don't even mean for the purposes of game play, I just mean from a completely notes as written standpoint. Take Aim doesn't refer to any actual special rule.

The AM Codex introduces it as a Special Rule even if it's not listed specifically under the Special Rules section of the BRB.

This. The AM codex ibook version has, in the special rules listing, "PRECISION SHOT" (Hallelujah.)

That's what I'm quoting. It is an officially introduced special rule now.

farrenj wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Can we all agree that there actually isn't a "Precision shots special rule", please? I don't even mean for the purposes of game play, I just mean from a completely notes as written standpoint. Take Aim doesn't refer to any actual special rule.

The AM Codex introduces it as a Special Rule even if it's not listed specifically under the Special Rules section of the BRB.

Sure. It introduces it as a special rule, but then fails to develop the idea further. What I'm saying is that there is actually no precision shots special rule ever described.

Like, the thinking behind it is sort-of obvious. of course they're referring to the the precision shots section of the main rulebook, but it isn't expressly a special rule.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

farrenj wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Can we all agree that there actually isn't a "Precision shots special rule", please? I don't even mean for the purposes of game play, I just mean from a completely notes as written standpoint. Take Aim doesn't refer to any actual special rule.

The AM Codex introduces it as a Special Rule even if it's not listed specifically under the Special Rules section of the BRB.

Sure. It introduces it as a special rule, but then fails to develop the idea further. What I'm saying is that there is actually no precision shots special rule ever described.

Like, the thinking behind it is sort-of obvious. of course they're referring to the the precision shots section of the main rulebook, but it isn't expressly a special rule.

BUT IT DOES.

Go read the ibook version, or the thing I keep quoting.

The ibook has it listed as a special rule, and it's in the special rules section, and it defines it exactly as I keep quoting there. It is a direct quote from the Special Rules reference section

It was not but now IS an expressly defined special rule, part of the reason only AM have it (because only AM has been released since AM)

I just wanted to know about how the Emperor's Benediction worked in general. I wasn't exactly expecting this to turn into a Precision Shot argument...

 gnoise wrote:
I just wanted to know about how the Emperor's Benediction worked in general. I wasn't exactly expecting this to turn into a Persision Shot argument...

Few ever are aware of what evils they open the box....

And it's in a gray area of the rules where things aren't very clear right now.

I think this is just another example of writting a rule and not thinking it out. Having a rule in the I-format and not following up with a rule book FAQ or being consistent just makes for issues. HIWPI: the relic bolt pistol gets precision shot always and thus the AM player can choose who is executed. The precision shot order gives precision shot on a roll of 6. It's really the only common sense application without either making the ability in the pistol useless or the ordered ability overpowered.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I think this is just another example of writting a rule and not thinking it out. Having a rule in the I-format and not following up with a rule book FAQ or being consistent just makes for issues. HIWPI: the relic bolt pistol gets precision shot always and thus the AM player can choose who is executed. The precision shot order gives precision shot on a roll of 6. It's really the only common sense application without either making the ability in the pistol useless or the ordered ability overpowered.

It also demands you give the exact same special rule 2 completely different definitions within the space of the same book. And both of them are different to the rule it gives us in the ibook edition, the only current source of an exact definition.

There's no need to RAI, here. We have an explicit solution for RAW. They wrote the codex to allow precision shots and they defined precision shots. Both pistol and order allow all units to place every wound, and the relic confers nothing to executions.

It would be OP if every shot were deadeye, and allowed no look out sir roll. As it stands it's just one of the many crazy orders in the new book. Precision Shot, Ignores Cover, Extra Shots with Hot-Shot Lasguns, Shooting & Running, Leemans powering across the field or popping smoke after shooting. They're all about as broken as each other.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
As precedent I would like to mention the rule for Sgt. Telion in the SM codex, all it says is all shots made by him are Precision Shots and I have always interpreted that to mean his controlling player always allocates his wounds, otherwise that rules is completely redundant as he is both a character and has a Sniper weapon.

Except that the rule does not say that.

Fragile wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
As precedent I would like to mention the rule for Sgt. Telion in the SM codex, all it says is all shots made by him are Precision Shots and I have always interpreted that to mean his controlling player always allocates his wounds, otherwise that rules is completely redundant as he is both a character and has a Sniper weapon.

Except that the rule does not say that.

Doesn't matter, we have a definition of Precision Shot published by GW now, and it has no mention of 6's.