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This is a pretty simple change. Crimson slaughter is meant to represent the Marines that have recently turned to chaos. Crimson slaughter could've easily been a very good book for representing this, but they decided to sell a few posessed models instead.

One simple change could make this a very fun and viable list:

Imports

Crimson slaughter represents things like Astral Claws. A codex that has recently turned rogue. Okay, cool! so they turn rogue and then... they rip all the flamestorm cannons off their land raiders, and break their ironclad dreadnoughts to make way for... chaos dreadnoughts. (cough). They forget to keep all that cool tech that other chaos spehs marheens don't have, but imperials do.

In short, the simple answer is, let CSM in crimson slaughter take options usually only available to loyalists - Drop the hellbrute and make the ironclad available. Add the two land raider variants. Replace helturkey with storm ravens and storm talons. Suddenly, we have what is a chaos renegade codex; a space marine codex with spikey bits to let chaos players really field some of the nice tech usually only available to loyalist chapters.

Thoughts?

Some imperial technological items stop working the moment you grow spikes.

 koooaei wrote:
Some imperial technological items stop working the moment you grow spikes.

THAT'S how it works!

Well, On the topic, it's a good idea. Fluffwise it's fine. Gamewise you loose chapter tactics but get some sort of Chaos rewards and don't get access to such things like heldrakes and maulerfiends with forgefiends. It just needs some precise ballancing out. So that you get and loose proportionally.

What's the difference between what you are proposing and what people are already doing out there (and have been for a while) which is playing spikey models with a loyalist codex? The old chaos marine codexes even used to recommend that you do this.

Just about the only difference is lack of access to boons and deamon weapons.

Crystal-Maze wrote:
What's the difference between what you are proposing and what people are already doing out there (and have been for a while) which is playing spikey models with a loyalist codex? The old chaos marine codexes even used to recommend that you do this.

Just about the only difference is lack of access to boons and deamon weapons.

Havoks would be different, they're beetter than terminators, bikes aren't troops, things like that. No access to scouts?

The havocks being different, terminators being different, lack of scouts etc are all things which would make the CS dex you are proposing unrepresentative of a recently turned marine force. Unless they were to pick up autocannon, kill their scouts and give their terminators combi-weapons when they turn traitor.

Why not just use the loyalist dex with spikey models?

Crystal-Maze wrote:
The havocks being different, terminators being different, lack of scouts etc are all things which would make the CS dex you are proposing unrepresentative of a recently turned marine force. Unless they were to pick up autocannon, kill their scouts and give their terminators combi-weapons when they turn traitor.

Why not just use the loyalist dex with spikey models?

How recent is a turn to chaos? Aren't the astral claws like 600 years of chaosyness or something?

Crystal-Maze wrote:
What's the difference between what you are proposing and what people are already doing out there (and have been for a while) which is playing spikey models with a loyalist codex? The old chaos marine codexes even used to recommend that you do this.

Just about the only difference is lack of access to boons and deamon weapons.

That is what I do, but I file off all the spikes and horns for my renegade marines. The CSM dex is just not good, doesnt let me field the variety I want.

yes i very much want to run a squad of sternguard vets for my iron warriors they seem like they would fit well with them! same with dreadnought and vehicle variants

How about we change it so Crimson slaughter is actually a supplement for the Codex Space marines book, but with chaos rules (mutations, icons and ally matrix)

Perhaps the easiest way to make this work IMO would be to make the space marine codex allies of convenience with the chaos marine codex (only when CSM are in the primary detachment) but say that the allies may not choose a chapter tactic.

This way players who want their traitor legions to have a mix of old and new tech can do so. To players who want to play a more recently turned chapter, I would say play the marine dex.

Play according to C: SM

Loose:
- Chapter tactics
- ATSKNF
- Combat Squads

Gain:
- Champion of Chaos for all characters
- Marks and Icons
- 1 pt decrease on everyone who had ATSKNF except for HQ.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
How about we change it so Crimson slaughter is actually a supplement for the Codex Space marines book, but with chaos rules (mutations, icons and ally matrix)

Exactly what I would suggest.

Goddamn this is a cool idea, really makes me hope for something like this in the future. Then again, we could just use the loyalist dex and overuse the "count-as" rule :p

Mechanically this might actually make sense as a variant Chapter Tactics rule written into the Space Marine Codex to the effect of Fear to all models, army counts as CSM for purposes of Allies and can take an Allied CSM detachment as Battle Brothers, and the variant Warlord Traits and Relics. Not entirely sure what the other major effect of the rule would be, though.

How about:

Chapter Tactics: Renegades
Recently turned:
Renegades count as Chaos Space marines for the purposes of ally matrix.

The Stuff of Nightmares:
Every unit in a detatchment with the Renegades Chatper tactics has the fear universal special rule.

Then, I suppose, make a limiter that forces a CT renegades unit to use the Crimson slaughter's relics

Would that work?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
How about:

Chapter Tactics: Renegades
Recently turned:
Renegades count as Chaos Space marines for the purposes of ally matrix.

The Stuff of Nightmares:
Every unit in a detatchment with the Renegades Chatper tactics has the fear universal special rule.

Then, I suppose, make a limiter that forces a CT renegades unit to use the Crimson slaughter's relics

Would that work?

Sort of, the question is that every other Chapter Tactics rule has two special properties it provides to units and changing the army to CSM for purposes of Allies isn't enough of a buff (Black Templars provides a change to the Allies table in addition to the other two rules). Lorewise "A Cornered Animal: Every unit in a detachment with the Renegades Chapter Tactics has the Stubborn universal special rule." wouldn't be far-fetched, though.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
How about:

Chapter Tactics: Renegades
Recently turned:
Renegades count as Chaos Space marines for the purposes of ally matrix.

The Stuff of Nightmares:
Every unit in a detatchment with the Renegades Chatper tactics has the fear universal special rule.

Then, I suppose, make a limiter that forces a CT renegades unit to use the Crimson slaughter's relics

Would that work?

Sort of, the question is that every other Chapter Tactics rule has two special properties it provides to units and changing the army to CSM for purposes of Allies isn't enough of a buff (Black Templars provides a change to the Allies table in addition to the other two rules). Lorewise "A Cornered Animal: Every unit in a detachment with the Renegades Chapter Tactics has the Stubborn universal special rule." wouldn't be far-fetched, though.

Stubborn is rather huge, isn't it? What about...

Backstabbers
Renegade Chapter tactics marines have preferred enemy (C:SM).

That represents them knowing the tactics that their once-brothers would use and being able to counter them effectively.

I like the idea of renegade chapter tactics so much better than messing around with creating another 'dex. ATSKNF would probably have to go, but something like Fear would be a nice replacement.