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 LordofHats wrote:
I could point out that as a group, the discrimination against Asians in the US has always been fleeting compared to that against Blacks, Hispanics, and Natives. I could also point out that many of the racial stereotypes of Asians are viewed positively not negatively, more so as time goes on, and that most Asians in the US were financially well off and successful when they came to the US during the big Asian immigration boom of the last 30 years. I could also say even that a single percentage point on a single chart is hardly a significant issue in what the charts are being used to show.

But that would all just be a waste of time so I wouldn't bother pointing any of it out

That's true today. It definitely wasn't true when we were building the railroads.

And if you think it's because all the Asian immigrants came over rich in the last thirty years, I dunno what to tell you, save to sit back and think a little harder about why Asian stereotypes might have changed.

 LordofHats wrote:


I could point out that as a group, the discrimination against Asians in the US has always been fleeting compared to that against Blacks, Hispanics, and Natives. I could also point out that many of the racial stereotypes of Asians are viewed positively not negatively, more so as time goes on, and that most Asians in the US were financially well off and successful when they came to the US during the big Asian immigration boom of the last 30 years. I could also say even that a single percentage point on a single chart is hardly a significant issue in what the charts are being used to show.

But that would all just be a waste of time so I wouldn't bother pointing any of it out

In Sociology there is a concept called "Model Minority"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority
Basically that the model minority are "Honorary Whites" with a good family, good worth ethic, but still regarded with suspicion.
In America, Asians are a model Minority

 d-usa wrote:
Which targets blacks more than white, because more blacks are poor than whites.

As a percentage of the individual racial population, perhaps.

There are about double the number of white people living under the poverty line than there are black people, though.

Whoops my bad, fair enough mr hat lord,

But still, its not true that asians got a free pass for some unexplainable reason.

 Seaward wrote:

That's true today. It definitely wasn't true when we were building the railroads.

yeah our distaste for Asians has historically been rather selective At some times we probably treated certain whites worse than we treated Asians... the poor Polish...

And if you think it's because all the Asian immigrants came over rich in the last thirty years,

It's more about how the population demographics work out. Asians have always been a smaller minority group in the US. They are today, were 200 years. But they used to be much much smaller. let's put it this way. There are 18,000,000 Asian Americans today. 70 years ago, there were less than 500,000. Since the 70's, the number of Asian Americans has increased 1800%.

Basically, Asians missed out on all the racist fun. They were such a miniscule minority, no one ever talked about them. Ever. They didn't become a demographic of note until after we started to end overt racism in America, so there are far fewer negative assumptions made about them, and as Cindy points out, the stereotypes we associate with Asians suit typical American attitudes. They started off pretty well overall, so they're social position is much stronger than that of Hispanics and Blacks. Add in that historically Blacks have had a major role in US politics and society, and we attach to them and Native Americans a lot of extra baggage.

EDIT: And Hotsauce steps in to save the day.


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 easysauce wrote:
Whoops my bad, fair enough mr hat lord,

But still, its not true that asians got a free pass for some unexplainable reason.

Fair enough then

 cincydooley wrote:
Is that at all similar to the "if you have a penis you can't comment on abortion" theory that's so popular these days?

Also, feth white guilt.

I guess you could say it's similar to your abortion argument as they're both about dismissiveness but it also depends on the specifics of what's being said like if the person's reasoning is faulty. Yeah, I don't like the term "white guilt" either, the reason I'm concerned about the lives of certain

minorities has nothing to do with guilt (you shouldn't do things out of guilt instead you should do it because that's what you believe in) but to do with me being convinced that they have been disenfranchised by society and that I don't feel that's fair or a good thing. Man, I feel I'm sounding a

little too self-righteous at the moment.

 LordofHats wrote:


yeah our distaste for Asians has historically been rather selective At some times we probably treated certain whites worse than we treated Asians... the poor Polish...

Or the Irish. Or the Italians..... You've got a pretty selective history book.

]
Basically, Asians missed out on all the racist fun. They were such a miniscule minority, no one ever talked about them. Ever. They didn't become a demographic of note until after we started to end overt racism in America, so there are far fewer negative assumptions made about them, and as Cindy points out, the stereotypes we associate with Asians suit typical American attitudes. They started off pretty well overall, so they're social position is much stronger than that of Hispanics and Blacks.

As both Seward and I pointed out, that just isn't true.

Additionally, it's ignorant to ignore the cultural attitude of the Asian American as a pretty deciding factor in their success in the United States. Asian Americans still believe in and value familial shame. If you ask me, we could use a little more of that in the United States as a whole.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

That's true today. It definitely wasn't true when we were building the railroads.

yeah our distaste for Asians has historically been rather selective At some times we probably treated certain whites worse than we treated Asians... the poor Polish...

I dunno, asians were the more recently interned in prison camps, there are also plenty of negative stereotypes akin to small penis size, shortness, lack of muscles and athletic ability, and so on and on (all untrue OFC)

I would say its very very much in SPITE of all the racism against them that most asian cultures do so well no matter where in the world they are. That has more to do with actual productive qualities in the different cultures then any kind of "privilege"

 cincydooley wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:


yeah our distaste for Asians has historically been rather selective At some times we probably treated certain whites worse than we treated Asians... the poor Polish...

Or the Irish. Or the Italians..... You've got a pretty selective history book.

You just said the same thing as LoH notice the "certain whites" part in his quote he probably was just using Polish people as one example of "certain whites" not meaning that they're the only group belonging to "certain whites".

 cincydooley wrote:


Or the Irish. Or the Italians..... You've got a pretty selective history book.

For a long time the trick a lot of industrialists played, mostly in the North, was to play the new incoming ethnic group against the old one (that way they kept labor cheap). It' happened to pretty much every white ethnic group that came to the US, but the Slavic ones by far had it the worse, because they were the whites that no one considered properly white (also why the Nazi's hated them, Godwined). Namely for the US, these were Poles and Czechs and during the 1890's, they had it really really bad. Some coal mining companies in PA paid blacks more than they paid Poles for the same work.

You know gak is real when the black guy is getting more money than you in 19th century America.

] Asian Americans still believe in and value familial shame. If you ask me, we could use a little more of that in the United States as a whole.

You're just proving my point. We don't discriminate against Asians as much as others because we view them more positively. Baring certain events like Japanese Interment and the Yellow Scare, racial tensions between whites and other groups have always overshadowed any with Asians. Add in that the big Asian influx didn't start until the 70's and we have a minority group that has mostly avoided the worst ends of what American racism can do.

 LordofHats wrote:
You're just proving my point. We don't discriminate against Asians as much as others because we view them more positively. Baring certain events like Japanese Interment and the Yellow Scare, racial tensions between whites and other groups have always overshadowed any with Asians. Add in that the big Asian influx didn't start until the 70's and we have a minority group that has mostly avoided the worst ends of what American racism can do.

Do you think we view them more positively because we rolled the dice and that's what the chart told us to do, or do you think there's some other reason?

 whembly wrote:
I'm all for social programs, tax money being used to help the poor and such. Just not on the basis of race.

I don't think you mean what you're actually saying there - of course various programs can and should be used to target specific racial problems.

Now, just to absolutely clear in what I'm saying, I think ending affirmative action for college entrance is a good thing*, as any effect it might have had is long since passed, and probably wasn't much to begin with. At this point dealing with lower scores among the poor needs to be handled by increasing equality and increasing the standards in schools in poor areas.

But with that out of the way, there's a million and one other places where a basic acceptance of race is part of every day policy. When a specific ethnic group is having a problem with over-representation in crime or even in specific types of crime police commonly reach out to that community and work with them to reduce that crime. When health issues plague a certain community more than others (alcoholism in Native American tribes, diabetes in African Americans, obesity in Hawaiin people) then moves are made to target those communities specifically.

Simply pretending there's no such thing as race is a really impractical way of setting policy.






*And even if it weren't a good thing, it's certainly up to the general population to decide whether they want it as it isn't mandated in any constitutional law, so the Supreme Court is doubly right in its ruling, by my reading of this.


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 Jihadin wrote:
If you expand the Social Programs all one is doing is digging the hole deeper. For if I am getting a crap ton of benefits with no effort then why would I make the effort to improve my standards and lose those benefits?

Yeah, the golden hammock story, recently a big part of Paul Ryan's big story. It's basically bs, with zero scholarship behind. I can link to the academic work if you're interested, but the basic reality is that very, very few people are lazy bottom feeders who'll happily accept the meager standard of living offered by welfare and not look for anything better.

Most people on welfare are in fact on it for a fairly short period of time, a few months, with welfare playing an important part in those people getting back on their feet. That's why strong welfare systems are strongly correlated to strong levels of economic mobility.

 LordofHats wrote:


You're just proving my point. We don't discriminate against Asians as much as others because we view them more positively. Baring certain events like Japanese Interment and the Yellow Scare, racial tensions between whites and other groups have always overshadowed any with Asians. Add in that the big Asian influx didn't start until the 70's and we have a minority group that has mostly avoided the worst ends of what American racism can do.

Why do we view them more positively?

 easysauce wrote:
White privilidge is nothing more then asserting that all white people are racist, inherently and unchangably so.

No, it isn't. It is nothing of the sort.

It is acknowledging that there are basic advantages given to people by virtue of being born in to a society where most powerful people share similar traits and cultural upbringing.

Being raised in a white, middle class family I was raised with an understanding of how the majority white, middle class world expects me to think and act - how to write assignments and reports, how to present in interviews, how to socialise around the office.

Now, this doesn't mean that a person of any other culture can't pick up that understanding, or that all white people have it, but to pretend it doesn't exist is just wrong.

 Seaward wrote:

Do you think we view them more positively because we rolled the dice and that's what the chart told us to do, or do you think there's some other reason?

I'm not sure how you can characterize any of that as rolling dice. Luck is certainly a historical factor (an often overlooked one) but human actors are hard to characterize so easily.

The one thing I can't account for at all is the shift in Asian stereotypes; attitudes about Asians in the 19th century characterized them as backwards, uneducated, and bad workers. Pretty much the exact opposite of the modern stereotype. How did that happen and when? I have no idea. If I were to hazard a guess it would be in the same time the Asian influx started in the 70's, but it could have happened as a result of WWII/Korea/Vietnam as well. I don't know enough to give a solid answer for that.

 sebster wrote:
.

Being raised in a white, middle class family I was raised with an understanding of how the majority white, middle class world expects me to think and act - how to write assignments and reports, how to present in interviews, how to socialise around the office.

Now, this doesn't mean that a person of any other culture can't pick up that understanding, or that all white people have it, but to pretend it doesn't exist is just wrong.

But you do agreed that it is learned and not simply inherent, yes?

 LordofHats wrote:
You're just proving my point. We don't discriminate against Asians as much as others because we view them more positively. Baring certain events like Japanese Interment and the Yellow Scare, racial tensions between whites and other groups have always overshadowed any with Asians. Add in that the big Asian influx didn't start until the 70's and we have a minority group that has mostly avoided the worst ends of what American racism can do.

When it comes to the state of poverty among black people today there is also an issue of just plain bad luck. Over the 20th century as formal, accepted white racism was being slowly pulled back, large black populations were way over-represented in two areas - the inner city areas and the south. And guess what two areas suffered large scale job losses for economic reasons entirely unrelated to the colour of the people living in those areas?

A few years later as we observed the social impacts rolling through those areas and their now high unemployment... and people decided there was a black culture problem.

 cincydooley wrote:


Why do we view them more positively?

I believe someone pointed it out earlier;

It would probably be a waste of time, then, to point out that Asian "stereotypes" are all predicated on hard work, discipline, and self reliance...attributes that are wholly "Traditional America".

 LordofHats wrote:
I'm not sure how you can characterize any of that as rolling dice. Luck is certainly a historical factor (an often overlooked one) but human actors are hard to characterize so easily.

The one thing I can't account for at all is the shift in Asian stereotypes; attitudes about Asians in the 19th century characterized them as backwards, uneducated, and bad workers. Pretty much the exact opposite of the modern stereotype. How did that happen and when? I have no idea. If I were to hazard a guess it would be in the same time the Asian influx started in the 70's, but it could have happened as a result of WWII/Korea/Vietnam as well. I don't know enough to give a solid answer for that.

So you wouldn't think it has anything to do with Asians, if considered as a group, doing extremely well, succeeding and overachieving in America, and the stereotype changing as a result?

 cincydooley wrote:
But you do agreed that it is learned and not simply inherent, yes?

Yeah, definitely agreed that it's learned and not inherent. But it is still a real factor that gives one group an advantage over the others.

 LordofHats wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:


Why do we view them more positively?

I believe someone pointed it out earlier;

It would probably be a waste of time, then, to point out that Asian "stereotypes" are all predicated on hard work, discipline, and self reliance...attributes that are wholly "Traditional America".

So would it stand to reason that "we'd" view other races more positively if they embodies those attributes as well?


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 sebster wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
But you do agreed that it is learned and not simply inherent, yes?

Yeah, definitely agreed that it's learned and not inherent. But it is still a real factor that gives one group an advantage over the others.

Would you also agree that this factor isn't available to white trash?

 Seaward wrote:

So you wouldn't think it has anything to do with Asians, if considered as a group, doing extremely well, succeeding and overachieving in America, and the stereotype changing as a result?

Probable. That goes to explaining changing cultural perceptions of Asians, and why we continue to perceive other minorities more negatively. As a population, their influx came later, and the influx was made of predominantly well educated people and skilled laborers who came in in a post Civil Right's Act America. All the social and historical problems that have entrenched Blacks and Native Americans on the bottom never hit that group so hard. They've succeeded compared to others, and that blinds us the larger reality of why other minorities have not.

 cincydooley wrote:
Would you also agree that this factor isn't available to white trash?

Sure, I even alluded to that very thing in my earlier post 'this doesn't mean that a person of any other culture can't pick up that understanding, or that all white people have it'.

 sebster wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Would you also agree that this factor isn't available to white trash?

Sure, I even alluded to that very thing in my earlier post 'this doesn't mean that a person of any other culture can't pick up that understanding, or that all white people have it'.

so wouldn't it be better to say its middle class privilege, unless your trying to say that all white people are middle class or? You kinda contradicted yourself in your initial post honestly.

 easysauce wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
White Privilege isn't about having nice things, or being wealthy, nor has it ever meant those things. It has to do with unearned, systematic, institutional things that are often overlooked or unnoticed when you are white, which also makes it difficult to explain to some people.

The fact that it's hilarious pixie dust bs also plays a role in making it hard to explain, I think.

Yeah, im still waiting for the list of specific things granted to whites to make them so privileged.

Especially the institutionalized benefits written into our law granting special things.

The reason why people like D-usa cannot provide a list or answer simple yes/no questions with a yes/no, is because they are talking out of their butts on this one.

Well, instead of big picture one, lets try a small one.

You ever hear of being pulled over for DWB? It's pretty common in the highly (de facto) segregated suburbs of bigger cities like Cleveland or Detroit. Basically, local cops are far, far more likley to pull over a black driver then a white driver. Hence, "Driving While Black." It's not really reproted or the sort of thing stats are kept on, but it's a common enough phenomenon that most (white) people I know are aware of it.

It's the sort of thing white people simply never have to deal with, not matter how broke they are.


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 soundwave591 wrote:

 sebster wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Would you also agree that this factor isn't available to white trash?

Sure, I even alluded to that very thing in my earlier post 'this doesn't mean that a person of any other culture can't pick up that understanding, or that all white people have it'.

so wouldn't it be better to say its middle class privilege, unless your trying to say that all white people are middle class or? You kinda contradicted yourself in your initial post honestly.

I'd argue no. There is still an inherent advantage to being white that's not learned, and that's in the criminal justice system. Everything from stops, to arrests, to prosecutions, to sentencing has a pretty decent "better off white" bias.

I must be ahead of my time or something...

I discriminate towards individuals who are dumber then football bat
I do not hold it towards a race, ethnic, or class of people

The Gods are great, Beer is cold, but people. People are at times can be STUPID

 Polonius wrote:


You ever hear of being pulled over for DWB? It's pretty common in the highly (de facto) segregated suburbs of bigger cities like Cleveland or Detroit. Basically, local cops are far, far more likley to pull over a black driver then a white driver. Hence, "Driving While Black." It's not really reproted or the sort of thing stats are kept on, but it's a common enough phenomenon that most (white) people I know are aware of it.

It's the sort of thing white people simply never have to deal with, not matter how broke they are.

I'd like to think I've never been pulled over because I've never given an officer any reason to pull me over.

Anyway, I have yet to see any real data that this phenomenon is remotely true.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'd like to think I've never been pulled over because I've never given an officer any reason to pull me over.

Because just thinking something makes it true! The point of being DWB is that you aren't doing anything to pulled over but get pulled over.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Anyway, I have yet to see any real data that this phenomenon is remotely true.

I didn't think it was true either until I saw it happen, and had it happen to me.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Polonius wrote:


You ever hear of being pulled over for DWB? It's pretty common in the highly (de facto) segregated suburbs of bigger cities like Cleveland or Detroit. Basically, local cops are far, far more likley to pull over a black driver then a white driver. Hence, "Driving While Black." It's not really reproted or the sort of thing stats are kept on, but it's a common enough phenomenon that most (white) people I know are aware of it.

It's the sort of thing white people simply never have to deal with, not matter how broke they are.

I'd like to think I've never been pulled over because I've never given an officer any reason to pull me over.

Anyway, I have yet to see any real data that this phenomenon is remotely true.

First off, you've never once sped, changed lanes without signaling, or rolled a stop sign? I call BS.

Second: here's a law review article showing blacks are at least twice as likely to be pulled over as white.

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/03justice/dwb01.htm

They may be twice as likely to be pulled over, but that doesn't mean they're simply being pulled over because DWB.

Correlation =/= causation.


And no, i've never gotten any kind of ticket at all.