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 jasper76 wrote:
Uh....how so?

RP and EL don't work on entire units, they work on a model-by-model basis.

Correct!
Read the SA rule. Does it remove models from play, or units?

Sure...it removes the entire unit. SA works on units. EL works on models.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Uh....how so?

RP and EL don't work on entire units, they work on a model-by-model basis.

Correct!
Read the SA rule. Does it remove models from play, or units?

I get what you're saying here, but

How do you remove a unit, without removing the models?
When you remove the unit, do you not remove all the models as casualties?

sirlynchmob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Uh....how so?

RP and EL don't work on entire units, they work on a model-by-model basis.

Correct!
Read the SA rule. Does it remove models from play, or units?

I get what you're saying here, but

How do you remove a unit, without removing the models?
When you remove the unit, do you not remove all the models as casualties?

OMFG you are analyzing and nitpicking this WAY to much. You remove the models as part of the unit, but the rule says units not models. No matter how you try to use semantics here, a model is a model, a group of models is a unit.

 jasper76 wrote:
Sure...it removes the entire unit. SA works on units. EL works on models.

Great!
Now - since SA says that nothing can save the unit, what rule are you using to save the unit?

Wrong. By the plain English defintion they were saved. No longer dead = saved from death.

 Ghaz wrote:
Wrong. By the plain English defintion they were saved. No longer dead = saved from death.

Nope. They were "reanimated". Totally different than "saved". The Cryptek was never, ever "saved from death" against the Sweeiping Adcance..to the contrary, he was killed dead by it.

Examples:

That doctor saved my life!

Dr. Frankenstein reanimated a dead corpse.

These are not interchangeable words.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's been a misunderstanding then, thanks for clearing it up.

I'd appreciate, but don't expect, an apology for your accusations.

I hereby apologize for assuming and falsely accusing you of trolling me - you made clear that your intent wasn't to do so. I perceived it as such an attempt as you continued to do so despite being asked to stop doing it. While not being a troll attempt, it was offensive to me. In the future, to avoid further misunderstandings, I'd appreciate if you could refrain from keeping to do sth. you were asked to cease. Thanks

Now: where does it explicitely say that a single model isn't a unit on its own?

/e: BRB, p. 39. A single model is still a unit on its own. It's a 1-model-unit.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Now: where does it explicitely say that a single model isn't a unit on its own?

It's a unit that contains a single model.
A single model unit, if you will.

Ninja'd ya.

Yes - it's a unit. I've never disputed that.

Does EL give permission for a unit to be saved by a special rule after SA? The unit isn't being "reanimated" - it's being saved.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes - it's a unit. I've never disputed that.

Does EL give permission for a unit to be saved by a special rule after SA? The unit isn't being "reanimated" - it's being saved.

I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to another post who said that models weren't units.

I have already adressed the faulty premise of "saving" above.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Uh....how so?

RP and EL don't work on entire units, they work on a model-by-model basis.

Correct!
Read the SA rule. Does it remove models from play, or units?

I get what you're saying here, but

How do you remove a unit, without removing the models?
When you remove the unit, do you not remove all the models as casualties?

OMFG you are analyzing and nitpicking this WAY to much. You remove the models as part of the unit, but the rule says units not models. No matter how you try to use semantics here, a model is a model, a group of models is a unit.

oh I'm using semantics? When all those making the counter argument can't even quote the proper rule and change the said rule.

no saves means no armor, cover or invuln saves.
the rule is rescue the unit, not save the unit. so everyone you see saying "save the unit" is wrong to do so.
and at this stage means at the end of the assault, not at the end of the assault phase.

so at the end of the assault the unit was not rescued, all the models in the unit were removed as casualties. Now at the end of the phase ...

Good gawd, man! This is devolving into a display of willful ignorance.

What does Ever Living "save" the unit from? Being dead? How did you get dead? Sweeping Advance.

(a) enemy outdoes your initiative and performs a sweeping advance
(b) the unit is killed by the sweeping advance.
(c) You place an EL marker on any model in the unit that has EL.
(d) After all Assaults are resolved, there is a chance for the model to come back via Ever Living.

You are skipping (b) repeatedly. That is where you would get saved if you could, but you cant, and you dont. There is no Save.

Ever Living is a reanimation tool...it does nothing whatsoever to stop wounds, or stop being killed by a Sweeping Advance.

Guys, might as well give up. Some people will never change their minds. This question has dragged on long enough. I'll bet a new necron player who looks at this will be confused beyond belief.

As long as your gaming group plays it that way they/you want it, there's no need to convince people otherwise. Just play it that way and be happy.

I'm glad my gaming group plays it the way I read it.

 milkboy wrote:
Guys, might as well give up. Some people will never change their minds. This question has dragged on long enough. I'll bet a new necron player who looks at this will be confused beyond belief.

As long as your gaming group plays it that way they/you want it, there's no need to convince people otherwise. Just play it that way and be happy.

I'm glad my gaming group plays it the way I read it.

Good advice. I'm taking it!

 jasper76 wrote:


Examples:

That doctor saved my life!

Dr. Frankenstein reanimated a dead corpse.

These are not interchangeable words.

Exalted for the only post that got a LOL from me in the last three pages!

 milkboy wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:


Examples:

That doctor saved my life!

Dr. Frankenstein reanimated a dead corpse.

These are not interchangeable words.

Exalted for the only post that got a LOL from me in the last three pages!

Except the actual rule never once uses 'reanimation' or 'resurrection'. It uses 'returned to play'. If a model is 'returned to play' then it was saved from no longer being able to take part in the battle.

 jasper76 wrote:
Good gawd, man! This is devolving into a display of willful ignorance.

What does Ever Living "save" the unit from? Being dead? How did you get dead? Sweeping Advance.

(a) enemy outdoes your initiative and performs a sweeping advance
(b) the unit is killed by the sweeping advance.
(c) You place an EL marker on any model in the unit that has EL.
(d) After all Assaults are resolved, there is a chance for the model to come back via Ever Living.

You are skipping (b) repeatedly. That is where you would get saved if you could, but you cant, and you dont. There is no Save.

Ever Living is a reanimation tool...it does nothing whatsoever to stop wounds, or stop being killed by a Sweeping Advance.

This wins. Plain and simple. Now if only this had come up eight pages ago lol!

 jasper76 wrote:
Ever Living is a reanimation tool...it does nothing whatsoever to stop wounds, or stop being killed by a Sweeping Advance.

EL does not reanimate. Using actual rules, it returns to play.
If something was removed from play and then returned to play, it was saved from destruction.

 Ghaz wrote:

Except the actual rule never once uses 'reanimation' or 'resurrection'. It uses 'returned to play'. If a model is 'returned to play' then it was saved from no longer being able to take part in the battle.

Again: you are using your very own definition of "save" here and not the ones presented in SA. This is a huge problem. If we did this to any terms, Necrons cannot be "killed" as they aren't alive, they can merely be "destroyed". A hovering unit could not "run" because it has no legs. "Our weapons are useless" would never be used because technically, you can always hurt an enemy as you can always deal damage to it, even if it fails to have any impact in the tabletop itself. Sure, a Guardsmen might not be able to "hurt" a Dreadnought by the rules. But he might certainly "hurt" it by adding a few scratches to its armor.

I could go on.

If you want to use your own definition of words in a rules context, you are as far away from RAW as you can possibly be. Keep rules-terms to rules and, to be more precise, to the place where you find the rules.

Yet you're using your own definition as well as substituting words such as 'resurrection' which never appear in the rules. How is returning a unit that was removed from play not saving them? It is. It also clearly ignores the statement for them that the battle is over. If they're returned to play, then obviously the battle is not over.

Granting a model an 'Everliving' roll does mean that you used a special rule to save the model.

Granting a model an 'Everliving' roll means the battle is not over.

You have ignored the rules for sweeping advance.

a) "For them the battle is over" is fluff, not rules.

b) You still ignore the fact that EL happens after SA. Unless you realize that, you won't understand how EL works.

 Sigvatr wrote:
a) "For them the battle is over" is fluff, not rules.

Debatable but irrelevant

b) You still ignore the fact that EL happens after SA. Unless you realize that, you won't understand how EL works.

You keep assuming that SA is limited to a point in time. That's incorrect. It has an ongoing effect, as I've explained previously.

 Ghaz wrote:
How is returning a unit that was removed from play not saving them?
You have ignored the rules for sweeping advance.

It did NOT save them. If it saved them, why are they off the board in the first place? (A: They got killed with NO SAVES ALLOWED)

Now I am home, and have the rules.

You guys are really, really reaching on this.

Point 1 - You guys are using unbolded fluff.
Point 2 - Rules in codices trump the rules in BRB.
Point 3 - The actual fluff section you are quoting starts with "Unless otherwise specified...". Ever Living (a special rule from the codex that trumps this rule anyways) counts as "otherwise specified".
Point 4 - This has already been FAQ'd
"Q: If an entire unit. including an attached character from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make any Reanimation Protocol roll?
A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out."

FOR NEW NECRON PLAYERS
On the extremely rare chance that someone challenges you on this, do no let lawyerly debate tactics trick you into thinking the FAQ on this subject does not apply to being "wiped out" by a Sweeping Advance.

(countdown to argument over what being "wiped out" means in 5, 4, 3...)

rigeld2 wrote:

You keep assuming that SA is limited to a point in time. That's incorrect. It has an ongoing effect, as I've explained previously.

And as I have explained before, assuming such a thing is wrong from both a RAW and RAI point of view.

EL does not conflict with SA. If a unit gets swept, you get to roll for EL (NOT RP!) and get a chance to get back in the game.

P.S. Point 5 - In the context of the section of the book, "at this stage" is a clear reference to the "Sweeping Advance" stage. The next stage is "End of Combat Pile In", followed by "Consolidation"

So, Sweeping Advance happens 2 FULL STEPS ahead of the end of the Assault Phase, which is where Ever Living is performed.

 jasper76 wrote:
Point 1 - You guys are using unbolded fluff.

Counterpoint - not every rule is bolded.

Point 2 - Rules in codices trump the rules in BRB.

Counterpoint - only when there is a conflict. There is no conflict.

Point 3 - The actual fluff section you are quoting starts with "Unless otherwise specified...". Ever Living (a special rule from the codex that trumps this rule anyways) counts as "otherwise specified".

Counterpoint - EL does not mention SA. At all. Otherwise someone would have pointed to where it is.

Point 4 - This has already been FAQ'd
"Q: If an entire unit. including an attached character from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make any Reanimation Protocol roll?
A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out."

Counterpoint - That still does not specify EL works against SA. Therefore it does not.

FOR NEW NECRON PLAYERS
On the extremely rare chance that someone challenges you on this, do no let lawyerly debate tactics trick you into thinking the FAQ on this subject does not apply to being "wiped out" by a Sweeping Advance.

(countdown to argument over what being "wiped out" means in 5, 4, 3...)

FOR NEW NECRON PLAYERS
Clearly this is a rule that is under disention. If you discuss it with your gaming group, you can probably come up with a group rule on how to handle this situation. That way neither you nor your opponent will not be blind-sided by what happens. Obviously at a Tourney, bring it up to the TO, if not in a Tournament FAQ.

 Sigvatr wrote:
You keep assuming that SA is limited to a point in time. That's incorrect. It has an ongoing effect, as I've explained previously.

Nope. After Sweeping Advance is DONE, then you move into End of Combat Pile In, then you move to Consolidation, and then you have ended the Assault Phase. It is at THIS point, that you make your Ever Living roll...2 full steps later in the Phase.

 jasper76 wrote:
P.S. Point 5 - In the context of the section of the book, "at this stage" is a clear reference to the "Sweeping Advance" stage. The next stage is "End of Combat Pile In", followed by "Consolidation"

So, Sweeping Advance happens 2 FULL STEPS ahead of the end of the Assault Phase, which is where Ever Living is performed.

P.S. Counterpoint - the only change made in SA is that after 4th edition they dropped the line about WBB (a Necron special rule similar to RP/EL except it happened even later game-wise) as an example of a rule that didn't work.