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This is a long article. You might want to go to the source if you're not workblocked as it breaks up the wall of text a little better.
A fatal wait: Veterans languish and die on a VA hospital's secret list By Scott Bronstein and Drew Griffin, CNN Investigations updated 9:19 PM EDT, Wed April 23, 2014
(CNN) -- At least 40 U.S. veterans died waiting for appointments at the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Health Care system, many of whom were placed on a secret waiting list.
The secret list was part of an elaborate scheme designed by Veterans Affairs managers in Phoenix who were trying to hide that 1,400 to 1,600 sick veterans were forced to wait months to see a doctor, according to a recently retired top VA doctor and several high-level sources.
For six months, CNN has been reporting on extended delays in health care appointments suffered by veterans across the country and who died while waiting for appointments and care. But the new revelations about the Phoenix VA are perhaps the most disturbing and striking to come to light thus far.
Internal e-mails obtained by CNN show that top management at the VA hospital in Arizona knew about the practice and even defended it.
Dr. Sam Foote just retired after spending 24 years with the VA system in Phoenix. The veteran doctor told CNN in an exclusive interview that the Phoenix VA works off two lists for patient appointments:
There's an "official" list that's shared with officials in Washington and shows the VA has been providing timely appointments, which Foote calls a sham list. And then there's the real list that's hidden from outsiders, where wait times can last more than a year.
Veterans dying waiting for healthcare Are we fulfilling our promise to veterans?
Deliberate scheme, shredded evidence "The scheme was deliberately put in place to avoid the VA's own internal rules," said Foote in Phoenix. "They developed the secret waiting list," said Foote, a respected local physician.
The VA requires its hospitals to provide care to patients in a timely manner, typically within 14 to 30 days, Foote said.
According to Foote, the elaborate scheme in Phoenix involved shredding evidence to hide the long list of veterans waiting for appointments and care. Officials at the VA, Foote says, instructed their staff to not actually make doctor's appointments for veterans within the computer system.
Instead, Foote says, when a veteran comes in seeking an appointment, "they enter information into the computer and do a screen capture hard copy printout. They then do not save what was put into the computer so there's no record that you were ever here," he said.
According to Foote, the information was gathered on the secret electronic list and then the information that would show when veterans first began waiting for an appointment was actually destroyed.
"That hard copy, if you will, that has the patient demographic information is then taken and placed onto a secret electronic waiting list, and then the data that is on that paper is shredded," Foote said.
"So the only record that you have ever been there requesting care was on that secret list," he said. "And they wouldn't take you off that secret list until you had an appointment time that was less than 14 days so it would give the appearance that they were improving greatly the waiting times, when in fact they were not."
I feel very sorry for the people who work at the Phoenix VA. They all wish they could leave 'cause they know what they're doing is wrong.
Doctor: It's a 'frustrated' staff "I feel very sorry for the people who work at the Phoenix VA," said Foote. "They're all frustrated. They're all upset. They all wish they could leave 'cause they know what they're doing is wrong.
"But they have families, they have mortgages and if they speak out or say anything to anybody about it, they will be fired and they know that."
Several other high-level VA staff confirmed Foote's description to CNN and confirmed this is exactly how the secret list works in Phoenix.
Foote says the Phoenix wait times reported back to Washington were entirely fictitious. "So then when they did that, they would report to Washington, 'Oh yeah. We're makin' our appointments within -- within 10 days, within the 14-day frame,' when in reality it had been six, nine, in some cases 21 months," he said.
In the case of 71-year-old Navy veteran Thomas Breen, the wait on the secret list ended much sooner.
"We had noticed that he started to have bleeding in his urine," said Teddy Barnes-Breen, his son. "So I was like, 'Listen, we gotta get you to the doctor.' "
Teddy says his Brooklyn-raised father was so proud of his military service that he would go nowhere but the VA for treatment. On September 28, 2013, with blood in his urine and a history of cancer, Teddy and his wife, Sally, rushed his father to the Phoenix VA emergency room, where he was examined and sent home to wait.
"They wrote on his chart that it was urgent," said Sally, her father-in-law's main caretaker. The family has obtained the chart from the VA that clearly states the "urgency" as "one week" for Breen to see a primary care doctor or at least a urologist, for the concerns about the blood in the urine.
"And they sent him home," says Teddy, incredulously.
Sally and Teddy say Thomas Breen was given an appointment with a rheumatologist to look at his prosthetic leg but was given no appointment for the main reason he went in.
The Breens wait ... and wait ... and wait ...
No one called from the VA with a primary care appointment. Sally says she and her father-in-law called "numerous times" in an effort to try to get an urgent appointment for him. She says the response they got was less than helpful.
"Well, you know, we have other patients that are critical as well," Sally says she was told. "It's a seven-month waiting list. And you're gonna have to have patience."
Sally says she kept calling, day after day, from late September to October. She kept up the calls through November. But then she no longer had reason to call.
Thomas Breen died on November 30. The death certificate shows that he died from Stage 4 bladder cancer. Months after the initial visit, Sally says she finally did get a call.
"They called me December 6. He's dead already."
Sally says the VA official told her, "We finally have that appointment. We have a primary for him.' I said, 'Really, you're a little too late, sweetheart.' "
Sally says her father-in-law realized toward the end he was not getting the care he needed.
"At the end is when he suffered. He screamed. He cried. And that's somethin' I'd never seen him do before, was cry. Never. Never. He cried in the kitchen right here. 'Don't let me die.' "
Teddy added his father said: "Why is this happening to me? Why won't anybody help me?"
Teddy added: "They didn't do the right thing." Sally said: "No. They neglected Pop."
First hidden -- and then removed Foote says Breen is a perfect example of a veteran who needed an urgent appointment with a primary doctor and who was instead put on the secret waiting list -- where he remained hidden.
Foote adds that when veterans waiting on the secret list die, they are simply removed.
"They could just remove you from that list, and there's no record that you ever came to the VA and presented for care. ... It's pretty sad."
Foote said that the number of dead veterans who died waiting for care is at least 40.
"That's correct. The number's actually higher. ... I would say that 40, there's more than that that I know of, but 40's probably a good number."
CNN has obtained e-mails from July 2013 showing that top management, including Phoenix VA Director Sharon Helman, was well-aware about the actual wait times, knew about the electronic off-the-books list and even defended its use to her staff.
In one internal Phoenix VA e-mail dated July 3, 2013, one staffer raised concerns about the secret electronic list and raised alarms that Phoenix VA officials were praising its use.
"I have to say, I think it's unfair to call any of this a success when Veterans are waiting 6 weeks on an electronic waiting list before they're called to schedule their first PCP (primary care physician) appointment," the e-mail states. "Sure, when their appointment is created, it can be 14 days out, but we're making them wait 6-20 weeks to create that appointment."
The e-mail adds pointedly: "That is unethical and a disservice to our Veterans."
Last year and earlier this year, Foote also sent letters to officials at the VA Office of the Inspector General with details about the secret electronic waiting list and about the large number of veterans who died waiting for care, many hidden on the secret list. Foote and several other sources inside the Phoenix VA confirmed to CNN that IG inspectors have interviewed them about the allegations.
VA: 'It is disheartening to hear allegations' CNN has made numerous requests to Helman and her staff for an interview about the secret list, the e-mails showing she was aware of it and the allegations of the 40 veterans who died waiting on the list, to no avail.
But CNN was sent a statement from VA officials in Texas, quoting Helman.
"It is disheartening to hear allegations about Veterans care being compromised," the statement from Helman reads, "and we are open to any collaborative discussion that assists in our goal to continually improve patient care."
Just before deadline Wednesday, the VA sent an additional comment to CNN.
It stated, in part: "We have conducted robust internal reviews since these allegations surfaced and welcome the results from the Office of Inspector General's review. We take these allegations seriously."
The VA statement to CNN added: "To ensure new Veterans waiting for appointments are managed appropriately, we maintain an Electronic Wait List (EWL) in accordance with the national VHA Scheduling Directive. The ability of new and established patients to get more timely care has showed significant improvement in the last two years which is attributable to increased budget, staffing, efficiency and infrastructure."
Foote says Helman's response in the first statement is stunning, explaining the entire secret list and the reason for its existence was planned and created by top management at the Phoenix VA, specifically to avoid detection of the long wait times by veterans there.
"This was a plan that involved the Pentad, which includes the director, the associate director, the assistant director, the chief of nursing, along with the medical chief of staff -- in collaboration with the chief of H.A.S."
Washington is paying attention
The Phoenix VA's "off the books" waiting list has now gotten the attention of the U.S. House Veterans Affairs Committee in Washington, whose chairman has been investigating delays in care at veterans hospitals across the country.
According to Rep. Jeff Miller, chairman of the House Committee on Veterans' Affairs, what was happening in Phoenix is even worse than veterans dying while waiting for care.
Even as CNN was working to report this story, the Florida Republican demanded the VA preserve all records in anticipation of a congressional investigation.
In a hearing on April 9, Miller learned even the undersecretary of health for the VA wasn't being told the truth about the secret list:
"It appears as though there could be as many as 40 veterans whose deaths could be related to delays in care. Were you made aware of these unofficial lists in any part of your look back?" asked Miller.
"Mr. Chairman, I was not," replied Dr. Thomas Lynch, assistant deputy undersecretary, Veterans Health Administration.
Congress has now ordered all records in Phoenix, secret or not, be preserved.
That would include the record of a 71-year-old Navy veteran named Thomas Breen.
That's fething appalling. Lock the bastards in prison and throw away the key.
See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
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I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums.
Every single person involved should be charged with manslaughter. They knowingly and willingly, through course of (in)action, allowed people to die. Throw every single law, privision and addendum at them. Don't let them dispense so much as a band-aid.
The way we treat our veterans in this country is nothing short of shameful.
And this is why when folks want a Federal gov't run healthcare system for the whole US I laugh. Vets are about 8% of the population, and we can't even properly manage their care.
I consider myself very lucky I don't rely on the VA.
The following is the attempt by the the good folks at Ranger Up to address VA issues. It is NOT politically correct at all, and has some bad words.
Long but worth watching.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 12:29:05
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It's a damn shame and insult to the guys and gals that served, and the whole process is an insult and disappointment to the guys and gals that swore to take care of them.
Underfunding and over-subscription is part of the problem, setting goals without providing the means to meet them another, and then there are just horrible human beings who don't give a feth and who should not be in any kind of position of authority if they don't subscribe to the mission of the agency they serve.
A decent portion of the blame goes to DCIMO. They are quick to send our troops to war, where they will get injured (both physically and mentally) and require our assistance when they return. By the time they decide to increase funding to actually hire folks and prepare for them to enter the VHA system it is already too late. It takes 6 months to a year to hire and train somebody (government for you there), probably longer to get completely new programs off the floor. But by the time we have the first wave of new veterans hit the door after initial deployment in OEF (and then OIF) the VHA was already behind.
I only work in the Hospital side of things, and compared to every other facility I have ever worked at (profit, non-profit, religious, etc) the VHA (at least my VAMC) is the best system I have worked in. But in-patient and out-patient services (including primary care) are two completely different animals and I hear from frustrated veterans even at our facility. I don't work that area so I don't know what goes on there, but I pray that we do a better job for them than this crap.
CptJake wrote: And this is why when folks want a Federal gov't run healthcare system for the whole US I laugh. Vets are about 8% of the population, and we can't even properly manage their care.
That being said, the standard of care we provide our veterans is shameful. I don't understand why we always seem to find the money to launch these bs wars but never the money to care for the men and women we sent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/24 13:27:58
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
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I think this is another scandal that's been building up for some time now. I want to say I remember hearing rumors about this kind of thing way back when I lived at Bragg, but I can't remember (it was 8 years ago).
I only work in the Hospital side of things, and compared to every other facility I have ever worked at (profit, non-profit, religious, etc) the VHA (at least my VAMC) is the best system I have worked in. But in-patient and out-patient services (including primary care) are two completely different animals and I hear from frustrated veterans even at our facility. I don't work that area so I don't know what goes on there, but I pray that we do a better job for them than this crap.
I've read that there's a shortage in the US of nurses and general care physicians. Have you noticed this and could it be a contributor to this problem?
I'm not sure what the underlying motivation was here. Clearly, they've got standards they have to meet and they fudged the numbers to do by putting folks on the waiting list. But why?
-Were they incapable of meeting the standards?
-Was there some profit in "meeting" the standards?
-Just for the evilulz?
Assuming they were incapable of meeting the standards, and that was found out what would have happened?
-Some personal loss for the leadership?
-An increase in resources so they could meet the standards?
-Cuts, penalties or fines to the program for under performing?
Some combination for any of these options? This just seems so odd, I'd certainly prefer it had a explanation that's a bit less moustache-twisting villainy than one might assume.
I mean if there was no way they could service everyone with the current resources, and copping to that in the official records would only cut their resources further. Their actions are understandable if unfortunate. Playing by the rules would have still had those waiting and dying doing just as much waiting and dying, but with the possibility that even more people get cut off from the services.
I'd certainly like to believe something like that was the case, before running with the idea that this was throwing people under the bus to preserve their own jobs or bonuses or the like.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/04/24 13:33:35
Ouze wrote: Yeah, words fail me. People better go to federal PMITA prison over this.
I... just have no words on this.
Wherever you fall in the political spectrum... private healthcare vs public debate...
It just doesn't matter in this regard.
I've advocated that the VA system need to be overhaul'ed to such degree that not only it's the best healthcare system in the world, but so fething good, that it's a benefit that private citizen/companies should drool over.
Because, let's face it... the armed service men/women deserves nothing less than that.
I've read that there's a shortage in the US of nurses and general care physicians. Have you noticed this and could it be a contributor to this problem?
I don't know about physicians. On the in-patient side (at least at our hospital) we have a lot of residents since we are affiliated with a teaching hospital and medical school. But I don't think that there are a lot of resident primary care programs out there. Primary Care certifications are usually Fellowships, and they will probably do those elsewhere.
Nursing always has a shortage. Part of the problem for us is that a lot of people look at $ and not the total benefit package. New nurses (and even some transfers) will get paid less working for the VA when they start out. But you get excellent health insurance, you can transfer to pretty much any federal agency anywhere if you want to, and you get 5 weeks of paid vacation the first year you start. (The vacation was a big one for me, but I'm European and I don't think most Americans are actually used to taking vacations.) So if you are just looking at numbers the VA doesn't look that attractive, although now that I have been here 5 years I make more than I would in the private sector, and you would have to be a screw-up to not get your grade-increases. We also had the pay freeze (so no COLA for 4 years, which affected every federal agency though) and we lost our bedside retention bonus (so 10% effective pay cut) which drove a lot of people off although that doesn't affect the out-patient side of things because they never got that to begin with. They fixed that now at our facility and gave the 10% increase to outpatient nursing staff as well so maybe that will help.
So I do think that the shortage doesn't help, especially with people that have a short term outlook on money. Sure they can make more money now somewhere else (and be fired just like that), but in the long term there are more opportunities and pay here.
No amount of money can fix "I don't give a feth about the mission of the VA" though, and I do think that there is some level of that going on in all levels of the VA. We have people who run this place like a private hospital and only look at the money and who don't give a feth about who we serve, and that pisses me off to no end. I could take care of patients anywhere, I'm here to take care of our veterans. Not everybody has that mindset though.
That's pretty sad. I don't like either of my jobs, but damn I still do them the best of my ability >.<
I've been considering dumping both my jobs the past few weeks and becoming an EMT (cause I'd actually like to do something that feels important) and the idea that someone can be rushed for emergency care and just be turned away at the door is mind jarring.
Chongara wrote: I'm not sure what the underlying motivation was here. Clearly, they've got standards they have to meet and they fudged the numbers to do by putting folks on the waiting list. But why?
-Were they incapable of meeting the standards? With the resources they had, probably not. But then you work on fixing that instead of fudging the numbers.
-Was there some profit in "meeting" the standards? I'm sure there are performance bonuses and target bonuses for being lean and efficient...
-Just for the evilulz? Probably not for the lulz, but somebody clearly didn't give a feth...
Assuming they were incapable of meeting the standards, and that was found out what would have happened?
-Some personal loss for the leadership? Ideally an increase in resources so that they could meet them. But probably just a "if you can't meet the standards, we will just find somebody that can".
-An increase in resources so they could meet the standards? That's what should happen.
-Cuts, penalties or fines to the program for under performing? Can't really cut or fine the program. But somebody should be held responsible, all the way up to DC where some of the responsibility originates.
Some combination for any of these options? This just seems so odd, I'd certainly and prefer it had a explanation that's a bit less moustache-twisting villainy than one might assume.
Probably a mix of frustration combined with way to much "I don't give a feth".
I mean if there was no way they could service everyone with the current resources, and copping to that in the official records would only cut their resources further. Their actions are understandable if unfortunate. Playing by the rules would have still had those waiting and dying doing just as much waiting and dying, but with the possibility that even more people get cut off from the services.
Drawing attention to the problem would probably still get them fired in retaliation, I don't know what the culture in that VISN is like. But if I had the option of getting fired for drawing attention to a legitimate problem or getting fired for lying about the problem, I would hope that I have the integrity to get fired for making people aware about it. It seems like there should be some whistle-blower protection there if you do the former.
I'd certainly like to believe something like that was the case, before running with the idea that this was throwing people under the bus to preserve their own jobs or bonuses or the like.
I wouldn't be afraid if that was a contributing factor though, sad as it may be.
LordofHats wrote: That's pretty sad. I don't like either of my jobs, but damn I still do them the best of my ability >.<
I've been considering dumping both my jobs the past few weeks and becoming an EMT (cause I'd actually like to do something that feels important) and the idea that someone can be rushed for emergency care and just be turned away at the door is mind jarring.
That's actually very illegal.
The ED is required by law to stabilize the patient when they walk in the door regardless their inability to pay for the services.
An ER has to evaluate you, and if you don't have a life threatening emergency they can turn you away without any treatment. That's the summary of the law.
It's not the best law, but looking at some of the crap that comes into the ER and takes up time and space of staff it is not surprising. I used to turn people away pretty frequently and refer them to the walk-in clinic for stuff like "I've had a gout flareup for 3 days" or "I'm out of medicine" or "my chronic back pain for 5 years is acting up".
Chongara wrote: I'm not sure what the underlying motivation was here. Clearly, they've got standards they have to meet and they fudged the numbers to do by putting folks on the waiting list. But why?
-Were they incapable of meeting the standards? With the resources they had, probably not. But then you work on fixing that instead of fudging the numbers.
-Was there some profit in "meeting" the standards? I'm sure there are performance bonuses and target bonuses for being lean and efficient...
-Just for the evilulz? Probably not for the lulz, but somebody clearly didn't give a feth...
Assuming they were incapable of meeting the standards, and that was found out what would have happened?
-Some personal loss for the leadership? Ideally an increase in resources so that they could meet them. But probably just a "if you can't meet the standards, we will just find somebody that can".
-An increase in resources so they could meet the standards? That's what should happen.
-Cuts, penalties or fines to the program for under performing? Can't really cut or fine the program. But somebody should be held responsible, all the way up to DC where some of the responsibility originates.
Some combination for any of these options? This just seems so odd, I'd certainly and prefer it had a explanation that's a bit less moustache-twisting villainy than one might assume.
Probably a mix of frustration combined with way to much "I don't give a feth".
I mean if there was no way they could service everyone with the current resources, and copping to that in the official records would only cut their resources further. Their actions are understandable if unfortunate. Playing by the rules would have still had those waiting and dying doing just as much waiting and dying, but with the possibility that even more people get cut off from the services.
Drawing attention to the problem would probably still get them fired in retaliation, I don't know what the culture in that VISN is like. But if I had the option of getting fired for drawing attention to a legitimate problem or getting fired for lying about the problem, I would hope that I have the integrity to get fired for making people aware about it. It seems like there should be some whistle-blower protection there if you do the former.
I'd certainly like to believe something like that was the case, before running with the idea that this was throwing people under the bus to preserve their own jobs or bonuses or the like.
I wouldn't be afraid if that was a contributing factor though, sad as it may be.
You don't really start a giant conspiracy over "I don't give a feth" though. Especially if there aren't personal consequences on the line. If you don't care and it can't hurt you, just let the failures happen. They took a non-trivial amount of effort and risk in doing this, especially when they started putting pressure on their subordinates to keep things hush-hush.
They were definitely invested in this situation in a big way, or the leadership just wouldn't have done what they did.
d-usa wrote: An ER has to evaluate you, and if you don't have a life threatening emergency they can turn you away without any treatment. That's the summary of the law.
It's not the best law, but looking at some of the crap that comes into the ER and takes up time and space of staff it is not surprising. I used to turn people away pretty frequently and refer them to the walk-in clinic for stuff like "I've had a gout flareup for 3 days" or "I'm out of medicine" or "my chronic back pain for 5 years is acting up".
Right... that's what I meant.
I've been to about 5 different private hospital system throughout the US (no idea about VA tho) and each institution is very concientous of not violating EMTALA.
The penalties is like $50G per incident ... but no institution want the public backlash associated with these incidents.
You don't really start a giant conspiracy over "I don't give a feth" though. Especially if there aren't personal consequences on the line. If you don't care and it can't hurt you, just let the failures happen. They took a non-trivial amount of effort and risk in doing this, especially when they started putting pressure on their subordinates to keep things hush-hush.
They were definitely invested in this situation in a big way, or the leadership just wouldn't have done what they did.
Well, the failures could definitely hurt them and cost them their job, so there are personal consequences for that. Covering it up "might" cost you your job if somebody finds out about this, so we will have to see if there are some big consequences (and hopefully there will be).
In an ideal world they would just do the job they were supposed to do, they would be unable to meet the goals, they would be able to tell DC why they didn't meet the goals, and then DC would give them the resources to meet them in the future. Everybody keeps their job and veterans now get the care they deserve.
In a less ideal world you would do the job you were supposed to do, you would be unable to meet the goals, you would get the blame and get fired, and you would expose the crap system to the press so that public pressure might give the veterans the care they deserve later.
In the crap world that happened they didn't do the job that they were supposed to do, they didn't meet the goals, they covered it up, and hopefully somebody gets fired and there will be enough public outrage to get veterans the care they deserved in the first place.
CptJake wrote: And this is why when folks want a Federal gov't run healthcare system for the whole US I laugh. Vets are about 8% of the population, and we can't even properly manage their care.
I will never understand why the VA is allowed to operate in the Dark Ages like it does. In some places, the files aren't even digitized yet. I vaguely recall a GSA issue not long ago where a building was becoming structurally unsound due to the amount of paper records piling up.
All that said, I also feel like the VA being allowed to operate blindly with little to no oversight is a huge issue. SOMEONE has to be making sure that the VA is doing what it's supposed to do. Clearly, that isn't getting done.
CptJake wrote: And this is why when folks want a Federal gov't run healthcare system for the whole US I laugh. Vets are about 8% of the population, and we can't even properly manage their care.
I will never understand why the VA is allowed to operate in the Dark Ages like it does. In some places, the files aren't even digitized yet.
Pretty much all records are in VistA now, so they are electronic.
A big problem that still continues, for no reason other than all agencies wanting to win the turf war, is that the military records are not in a compatible system with the VA records. I want to say that each military branch also has their own electronic standards, but I'm not 100% certain about that.
So what ends up happening is that folks leaving the military have to have their electronic records printed out, carry them to the VA, have them scanned back in or entered manually to be compatible with our system, and then the paper records that were brought in have to be stored.
There should be no reason why all the branches and the VA can't use the same system, or at the very least a database that lets every piece of data be utilized by each system without having to use the intermediate paper step that delays a lot of the care.
I vaguely recall a GSA issue not long ago where a building was becoming structurally unsound due to the amount of paper records piling up.
We had a similar issue. We moved our medical records department into a different building so that we could expand our ER and add a new urgent care clinic. The other building had to be structurally reinforced so that they could support the weight of these records.
All that said, I also feel like the VA being allowed to operate blindly with little to no oversight is a huge issue. SOMEONE has to be making sure that the VA is doing what it's supposed to do. Clearly, that isn't getting done.
Well, they were making sure. They were audited to make sure that everybody gets seen in a timely manner from the moment they came in to schedule an appointment. The problem in this particular case was not as much a lack of oversight, it was the incredible amount of effort that was undertaken to circumvent that oversight.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Dreadclaw69 wrote: Absolutely despicable. That is no way to treat the people who served their country
It's no way to treat anyone regardless of what they have done.
This, yes. I find it strange that we're saying "That is no way to treat the people who served their country", and not simply, "That is no way to treat people".