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Ok.. now I'm seeing it. Definitely looks real since Reuters has it front page.
While I can't say much about Shinseki's overall body of work at the VA, let's hope the next guy cleans house. Would it be too much to ask for Mattis, or McCrystal to take the job?
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Ok.. now I'm seeing it. Definitely looks real since Reuters has it front page.
While I can't say much about Shinseki's overall body of work at the VA, let's hope the next guy cleans house. Would it be too much to ask for Mattis, or McCrystal to take the job?
President said that VA executives involved were fired.
There is such a leadership issue, judging by the extend, I don't expect anyone to fix anything soon. Maybe enough people will leave with a 50% paycut and we will see a difference. But I'm pretty bitter and pessimistic right now.
Honestly, even Mattis could not be effective. His leadership style would piss off the entrenched multi-decade employed civilian bureaucrats that inhabit the organization. They would passively resist any move he made. Unless you just fire the top few layers, and any middle layer managers who have more than 5 years there, the problem will continue in some way.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My pessimistic side sees The Solution involving enrolling all vets into the ACA and providing ACA vouchers/subsidies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/30 15:32:16
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
d-usa wrote: There is such a leadership issue, judging by the extend, I don't expect anyone to fix anything soon. Maybe enough people will leave with a 50% paycut and we will see a difference. But I'm pretty bitter and pessimistic right now.
I hear you... it's a major bureaucratic issue that's going to take serious political cajones to change.
You know my general opposition to Obama... but, he's saying all the right things at this speech now and right now, I applaud him for taking this task "head on" right now. I only hope we (congress/media/joe schmoe) keep the pressure up to enact meaningful reforms.
But I agree with the consensus here that a problem that is so deeply rooted is going to be very, very hard to eradicate completely. Sure the top level executives are out, but that is not a magic bullet to the many middle managers and lower-end executives who still gamed the system to their benefit.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
This is probably the most important quote from the whole article:
John Gingrich, Shinseki’s chief of staff until 2012, summed up the problem in even starker terms: “When people don’t have integrity, it is hard to transform them.”
My pessimistic side sees The Solution involving enrolling all vets into the ACA and providing ACA vouchers/subsidies.
I've worked in almost every form of health system that currently exists in the US over the last 15 years. And I honestly feel that (on the inpatient hospital side of things) the VA is better than almost all of them. There is always room for improvement though. Think of all the problems Medicare and Medicaid already has, and now try to imagine adding all the veterans into that same system. I think it would create a lot more problems than solutions.
One common thing that I hear from my patients, and I think even a lot of the veterans complaining in the hearings said the same, is that once you make it into the system they are usually pretty satisfied.
I think a big problem, apart from the lack of ethics and morals from individuals involved, is that the system was suddenly stressed by three things at once:
1) Over a decade of war: Tons of new veterans entering the system in large numbers, and the system wasn't ready.
2) Baby Boomers: Vietnam veterans are getting older, and just as the baby boomers are straining the health system all over the US as they age and require more care the veterans born during that same period are adding an increased strain to the VA.
3) The Economy: The VA is the safety net for many people. There was probably a large number of veterans from many conflicts that have never utilized the system because they had jobs and health insurance. When the economy tanked it resulted in old and new veterans being unable to find employment and health insurance, so when they couldn't make it on their own they came to the government because that's what they were promised. That we would take care of them after serving.
The new veterans from the current wars is a biggie, but both the aging population and people falling into the safety net would have been a big stress on the system. All three combined created a perfect storm. gak hit the fan quick, and people took the easy way out instead of standing up for our veterans.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/05/31 01:27:36
So a bit of the leadership got ejected which is a good start. I am under the impression its the department that does the scheduling and enrolling needs to be in the vertical and horizontal for massive removal
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A buddy of mine posted a link to a local (for him) article about how this same sort of scandal has hit his local VA Clinic in Alabama.... As I suggested, it was going to "look worse" before it got better.
You might have just jinxed yourself. Roll for jink
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
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But it looks like we didn't do the "secret list" crap, so I'm happy about that.
I'm inpatient, so I have no clue how our outpatient clinics and appointments are going. I just hope the VA here and every whenever gets this crap straightened out.
A whistleblower in Atlanta has revealed that VA employees were switched from processing VA applications to those of the ObamaCare.
Scott Davis told the Atlanta Journal:
“We don’t discuss veterans. We do not work for veterans. That is something that I learned after working there. Our customer is the VA central office, the White House and the Congress. The veterans are not our priority. So whatever the initiatives are or the big ticket items, that is what we focus on.”
He later appeared on the Neil Cavuto show...
Davis: What I think happened, Neil, is that there was pressure by people in Washington for us to hit our numbers. You’ve heard a lot about the 14-day turn around time for the hospitals. But what most people don’t know is that there’s a five-day turn around time for health applications. And if we don’t hit that five-day turn around time, it affects performance goals for people in senior leadership positions.
Cavuto: So if you don’t have that, and you’re not paying that out, it looks like you’re meeting your numbers and then some, right?
Davis: Absolutely. But what also happens, Neil, is that we’re currently neglecting not only the right thing to do, which is to process applications, not delete them. We have a huge system integrity issue at VA. For example, the VA right now can’t even tell the investigators what happened to those applications, because they can’t verify where they are, what happened to them, if they were deleted, why were they deleted, and why there was no paperwork showing the justifications for those deletions.
Cavuto: We’ve asked for a statement out of the VA on this and we have yet to get one, Scott. I’m trying then to give them the benefit of the doubt here. It seems like a crazy situation. Did you or any of your co-workers ever get so overwhelmed — not you specifically — but they just say the heck with it, more files, more applications, just dump them in the trash, we’re overwhelmed. Do you think that has gone on?
Davis: I know that there was rumors that suspect those activities before I started work thing in 2011. What I can tell you is that there’s so much pressure on the employees to get stuff done so management can meet goals, it’s easy to make mistakes, it’s easy to have mishaps. What happens is, instead of the VA focusing on doing what’s right for our nation’s veterans — meaning taking time, processing each application diligently and appropriately — pressure is placed on front line employees to overwork themselves, rush through the application process, to hit goals for members of management.
Cavuto: When you say to hit goals, is the goal a dollar goal or is it get the applications complete? Sometimes keep on top of this so there are no delays, or is it keep on top of it and get rid of something that could hurt our numbers?
Davis: Well, for what I’ve witnessed, it’s based on a performance goal.
Cavuto: How is that performance measured?
Davis: That performance is measured based on our ability to turn around an application from beginning to end within a five-day turn around. There’s an acceptable percentage that we have to have, which is in excess of 80% for all applications that comes into that office. What you find is that there’s extensive pressure on the staff to process applications, to focus our attention to applications based on specific campaigns. For example, I shared with your producer that we actually put incoming applications aside so we could focus on the ACA related applications that came in over last summer. That’s wrong. We should treat each veteran equally and focus on applications, as they come in, not because of special campaigns coming out of D.C.
Jesus... Is this the face of government run health care???
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/05 19:31:03
A whistleblower in Atlanta has revealed that VA employees were switched from processing VA applications to those of the ObamaCare.
You know, there is a legitimate scandal going on here without the need to insert stupid bs like this. And that is why there are problems getting gak done in DC. Because when there is a legitimate problem we end up tainting it with crap like this.
His own statements don't match up with what he is saying there, and it sounds like he either doesn't understand the legitimate reasons for why some of that stuff was done or he knows he is full of crap and just milking it for his own 5 minutes of fame.
The purging is probably the only legitimate complaint in his whole story. And it's probably happening for the same reasons as the lists. People trying to meet unrealistic goals. We know what the problem is, now work on fixing it.
But Breitbart and FoxNews jumping on this as an anti-ObamaCare issue when it doesn't exist is bs. Help the fething veterans by fixing this legitimate issue and don't use them for your own political BS.
A whistleblower in Atlanta has revealed that VA employees were switched from processing VA applications to those of the ObamaCare.
You know, there is a legitimate scandal going on here without the need to insert stupid bs like this. And that is why there are problems getting gak done in DC. Because when there is a legitimate problem we end up tainting it with crap like this.
His own statements don't match up with what he is saying there, and it sounds like he either doesn't understand the legitimate reasons for why some of that stuff was done or he knows he is full of crap and just milking it for his own 5 minutes of fame.
The purging is probably the only legitimate complaint in his whole story. And it's probably happening for the same reasons as the lists. People trying to meet unrealistic goals. We know what the problem is, now work on fixing it.
But Breitbart and FoxNews jumping on this as an anti-ObamaCare issue when it doesn't exist is bs. Help the fething veterans by fixing this legitimate issue and don't use them for your own political BS.
Bret Baier moved to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution ?
Edit
I'm on my fourth attempt to enroll in VA health care
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/06 06:37:34
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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A whistleblower in Atlanta has revealed that VA employees were switched from processing VA applications to those of the ObamaCare.
You know, there is a legitimate scandal going on here without the need to insert stupid bs like this. And that is why there are problems getting gak done in DC. Because when there is a legitimate problem we end up tainting it with crap like this.
His own statements don't match up with what he is saying there, and it sounds like he either doesn't understand the legitimate reasons for why some of that stuff was done or he knows he is full of crap and just milking it for his own 5 minutes of fame.
The purging is probably the only legitimate complaint in his whole story. And it's probably happening for the same reasons as the lists. People trying to meet unrealistic goals. We know what the problem is, now work on fixing it.
But Breitbart and FoxNews jumping on this as an anti-ObamaCare issue when it doesn't exist is bs. Help the fething veterans by fixing this legitimate issue and don't use them for your own political BS.
I don't know... this is symptomatic of the same problem D...
He's going to testify tomorrow regarding people being shifted from processing VA applications last summer to working on Obamacare enrollment, with an attorny specialization whistleblowing... It deserves scrutiny.
That is not what he is testifying over. There is a good reason why the news organization that has been front and center on this story has not mentioned this guy. He is the prime example of why people don't take this gak seriously, because some people manage to take a legitimate scandal and conspiracy theory it into a laughing stock.
The VA crisis is a very legitimate problem that we need to fix. I take care of these guys daily and it pisses me off to no end that there are people in my organization that played with the lives of these guys and that some of them died because of it.
The fact that you are coming in going "guys guys, I known there is a real problem here, but this guy is saying that ObamaCare is the real problem" is just the idiotic conservative partisan circle jerk that will kill.
Use your brain for once. Be smart and stay away from whatever anti-Obama pit of idiocy you normally hang out at. Don't you dare take what is happening to these guys and use it to fuel your conspiracy theories against the guy you hate. You are an intelligent man, act like it for once.
"He was pulled from processing veterans applications to process ObamaCare applications" is the kind of headline that is just pandering to people who don't want to spend 5 seconds forming an independent thought. And that he is making the idiot-news circle with that side of the story says a lot about him.
"We lost thousands of applications" is the legitimate news here, and a giant problem, and also what he is testifying over.
The ObamaCare thing is not, because anybody able to do 5 seconds of thinking can see that it is a non-story.
"He was pulled from processing veterans applications to process ObamaCare applications" is the kind of headline that is just pandering to people who don't want to spend 5 seconds forming an independent thought. And that he is making the idiot-news circle with that side of the story says a lot about him.
"We lost thousands of applications" is the legitimate news here, and a giant problem, and also what he is testifying over.
The ObamaCare thing is not, because anybody able to do 5 seconds of thinking can see that it is a non-story.
To the first quote... Spending less than 5 seconds thinking about it tells me this: The VA is completely separate from HHS or CDC or whatever the "Obamacare" thing falls under. That said, you don't just "transfer" from the VA to another federal branch. would anyone believe me if I said, "Hey guys, I was working on this project while I was an FBI agent, but that project became gakky, so I transfered over to the CIA." ??
Don't get me wrong, the ACA and Obamacare are a complete fething nightmare for people, and that deserves attention. But Vets dying over the VA's incompetence deserves it's OWN attention, not to be lumped in with "Obama scandal of the week" tripe on the headline news programs.
"He was pulled from processing veterans applications to process ObamaCare applications" is the kind of headline that is just pandering to people who don't want to spend 5 seconds forming an independent thought. And that he is making the idiot-news circle with that side of the story says a lot about him.
"We lost thousands of applications" is the legitimate news here, and a giant problem, and also what he is testifying over.
The ObamaCare thing is not, because anybody able to do 5 seconds of thinking can see that it is a non-story.
To the first quote... Spending less than 5 seconds thinking about it tells me this: The VA is completely separate from HHS or CDC or whatever the "Obamacare" thing falls under. That said, you don't just "transfer" from the VA to another federal branch. would anyone believe me if I said, "Hey guys, I was working on this project while I was an FBI agent, but that project became gakky, so I transfered over to the CIA." ??
Don't get me wrong, the ACA and Obamacare are a complete fething nightmare for people, and that deserves attention. But Vets dying over the VA's incompetence deserves it's OWN attention, not to be lumped in with "Obama scandal of the week" tripe on the headline news programs.
That would depend on what the union contract is. I would like to see their "Statement of Work" to see how this happen. If it happen. Which seems to have had happen. If there is a clause in the Statement of Work allowing them to be pulled from the primary job to assist in priority job then its on whoever wrote the contract up fault
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
"He was pulled from processing veterans applications to process ObamaCare applications" is the kind of headline that is just pandering to people who don't want to spend 5 seconds forming an independent thought. And that he is making the idiot-news circle with that side of the story says a lot about him.
"We lost thousands of applications" is the legitimate news here, and a giant problem, and also what he is testifying over.
The ObamaCare thing is not, because anybody able to do 5 seconds of thinking can see that it is a non-story.
To the first quote... Spending less than 5 seconds thinking about it tells me this: The VA is completely separate from HHS or CDC or whatever the "Obamacare" thing falls under. That said, you don't just "transfer" from the VA to another federal branch. would anyone believe me if I said, "Hey guys, I was working on this project while I was an FBI agent, but that project became gakky, so I transfered over to the CIA." ??
There is a perfectly legitimate and reasonable explanation for the "they pulled me over to do ObamaCare applications" statements, you just have to actually read the crap he is saying. And if you think about it you realize that he either has an axe to grind, is incompetent, or is just looking for his 5 minutes in the spotlight.
Most likely explanation once you actually read what he is saying (which actually was "we were told to prioritize veterans applications filed due to ObamaCare" and not "we were told to ignore veterans applications all together and do ACA applications instead") and look at the actual information is this: starting this year you have to have health insurance. If you don't you pay a fine. Your VA coverage satisfies the requirement under the ACA. Lets prioritize the applications of people who don't have any other source of coverage so that veterans who are already suffering and are waiting for care and who don't have any other source of healthcare so that they don't get hit with a fine because of our slow process. People who already have other coverage (private coverage, tricare, Medicare/Medicaid) have some coverage and will not have to pay a fine so let's work on them after that.
Now we can argue if this would have been the right thing to do, or if all applications should have been "first in first out" like our whistleblower friend wanted it to be. And that is a discussion worth having. I will even agree that there is a high likelihood that this was a political move designed to prevent people from going on the news and saying: "the VA has been screwing up my application for 3 years, and now I have to pay a fine because they can't get it processed faster?"
But that is all a whole lot different than "the VA threw away applications to work on ObamaCare instead".
Don't get me wrong, the ACA and Obamacare are a complete fething nightmare for people, and that deserves attention. But Vets dying over the VA's incompetence deserves it's OWN attention, not to be lumped in with "Obama scandal of the week" tripe on the headline news programs.
But conservatives have been getting good at that. They manage to take any legitimate scandal and hit it with a dose of "this is bad, but how can we make this 'Obama hates America and will destroy us all' bad?". And then people get tired of it and turn off because the partisan witch hunt overshadows the actual problem.
I want this gak fixed. I want people fired. I want management that doesn't scream at us for wanting a better system and who tell us "tough gak" when the staffing sucks and then go home instead of helping. I want veterans to get the best they could ever have here at the VHA. And right nor people are pissed enough where it might actually happen. I don't want all that energy for reform to go away because people see this type of "this is all because of ObamaCare" bs and turn the TV off because it just becomes another partisan issue based on lies.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/07 23:23:49
I want this gak fixed. I want people fired. I want management that doesn't scream at us for wanting a better system and who tell us "tough gak" when the staffing sucks and then go home instead of helping. I want veterans to get the best they could ever have here at the VHA.
Agreed... I'm now on a waiting list to be seen for my initial care, since, ya know I was medically discharged from the military, I don't need any medication or anything (to be completely honest, I'm nowhere near as bad as some folks out there, if I don't get my meds, I turn into a pissed off tin-man. I completely realize that there are Vets out there who, if they don't get their meds, they'll die)
and I agree with you, that people going onto the news like this new "whistleblower" dilute the issues at hand, which create unnecessary hurdles to getting this stuff fixed.
I do think 100% that there are some fethed up issues, and I can 100% believe that there was a political motivation to prioritizing veteran applications that would be negatively affected by the ACA rule. I want to hope that it was a "they can't afford a fine on top of everything else, let's focus on helping them first" situation, but would not be the slightest bit surprised if it was a "we can't have them bitch on the news about paying a fine for our own screw-up, process them first to shut them up" situation either.
The "we lost applications" aspect of his story is certainly something we should focus on, and DC needs to know if/how/why that happened. There is nothing worth excusing there.
I just don't want a legitimate issue becoming a political sideshow because some people hijack it for silly reasons.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/08 01:40:07
