Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

@Azazelx I don't fully understand what is your point with Shieldwolf orcs. You say that they are the same aesthetic as GW and half its price. The quality of the material of the product is also equal to that of GW. Therefore I don't see what is bad about this deal.
I would really like a clarification on this.

I think he was using Shieldwolf as a positive example. They are fine miniatures, in the GW style and you can get twice as many as GW offer for the same price. The is a very good deal. GW still package their goblins in 20's so the savings in price I can offer will not be as good. I am hoping to try and emulate Shieldwolfs models in both quality and value for money.

Thank you for the response and the clarification. Your project seems very promising and serious and I will keep a close eye on it like on all good efforts. All the best for your campaign.

if the models look anything like the concept than your quality will be better than GW so I'd be very impressed if the price was reasonable too.

 Azazelx wrote:
35%-50% cheaper than GW is not what was being bandied around earlier. 50% is the number that I kept seeing for the kickstarter's early birds - not retail. While I have no doubt that your KS will offer value for money, my concern is that once they hit retail if they are only 25% (again, the number that kept being used) then your investment will fail at retail, or simply be something that people pick up once in a while.

Even if Kaine manages to offer a great deal on this KS (which I'm watching with great interest) I agree it's of huge importance to see how much this will cost once it hits retail. As Tre pointed out, he'll need to have some profit out of this and his leaving the retail price at -25% from GW may not allow follow up sales and that may not be good for the company he is founding.

 Azazelx wrote:
Unfortunately, Scarlet Squig seems to have completely lost all sense of objectivity in this thread based on his own personal interest (the Shieldwolf example he gave was awful - their models are literally half the price of GW's and follow the same aesthetic, right down to including one of those silly 2-man spears).

I find this this to be neither true nor fair to the Greeks. I saw what Corgan wrote above but I'm not sure this is it. I don't mean to derail the topic here on these goblins but having read what the Shieldwolf guys are writing in Greek forums even if they haven't directly named GW they want to move away from the GW esthetic. Sure, some of their miniatures can been used for WHFB, I think it's evident, it will help them grow faster and bigger (them making this kit a 2-way use for either orcs or daemons was very clever) but it's not like they are copying the GW counterparts. Heck, if I remember correctly there was a whole debate on the head issue (some people loved it and some hated it!).
I don't know why Shieldwolf doesn't interfere here but they are not Avatars of War, they are doing barbarians and Arabs, what does that have to do with copying the "esthetics" of the big company? As for the 2-man spears, apart from the fact they look nothing like the GW spears, they admitted it was a language error and pointed to halberds. Haven't seen any Savage orcs holding halberds now, have you?

I personally love the Shieldwolf orcs. Great figures and love the feral look of the heads. It's seems rather unfortunate that the two major races I have concentrated on are goblins and zombies, probably the only two 20 man box sets they still produce! I will make every effort to make the box sets as competitively priced as I can.

I'm eagerly awaiting this Kickstarter.

Admittedly, I don't have any use for 200 goblins, but I'll be more than happy to join in for zombies.

The breakdown of the KS does mean that Zombies will only be available as a stretch goal and again for the Lizardkin after them. Obviously I need to make enough money to machine the new plastics so there will be a substantial gap between the goblins zombies and Lizardkin. I will look into adding additional Earlybirds if possible to enable zombie enthusiasts to purchase vast hordes too! At least I hope that can be done!!

Sirio wrote:


I find this this to be neither true nor fair to the Greeks. I saw what Corgan wrote above but I'm not sure this is it. I don't mean to derail the topic here on these goblins but having read what the Shieldwolf guys are writing in Greek forums even if they haven't directly named GW they want to move away from the GW esthetic. Sure, some of their miniatures can been used for WHFB, I think it's evident, it will help them grow faster and bigger (them making this kit a 2-way use for either orcs or daemons was very clever) but it's not like they are copying the GW counterparts. Heck, if I remember correctly there was a whole debate on the head issue (some people loved it and some hated it!).
I don't know why Shieldwolf doesn't interfere here but they are not Avatars of War, they are doing barbarians and Arabs, what does that have to do with copying the "esthetics" of the big company? As for the 2-man spears, apart from the fact they look nothing like the GW spears, they admitted it was a language error and pointed to halberds. Haven't seen any Savage orcs holding halberds now, have you?

Well said

I've not been following too closely on this, did you show off any artwork for the lizards yet? What direction were you going to be taking them in? The usual Aztec/barbarian look most fantasy lizardmen have, or were you going to take it in a different direction and have them be a bit more civilized?

Off the top of my head, the only civilized lizards I can think of are the Reptus stuff from Reaper.

I've got a lot of lizards too. Most tend to be wild savages. Snakemen too...

Mierce's Khthon snakes all wear armor and use actual weapons, for what it's worth. A few of Reaper's character snakes did too.

The only ones who ever seem to wear clothes/ armor regularly are dragonmen/ dragonborn/ draconians/ dragon inspired humanoids. Never the lizards.

Minion minis, please help add to civilized reptile culture!

Kaine Larson wrote:
I personally love the Shieldwolf orcs. Great figures and love the feral look of the heads. It's seems rather unfortunate that the two major races I have concentrated on are goblins and zombies, probably the only two 20 man box sets they still produce! I will make every effort to make the box sets as competitively priced as I can.

I'm just going to point out that fortune has nothing to do with it. If there is stronger competition with your Goblins and Zombies than with Lizardmen or your later races, there's no reason why you cannot leave the Goblins and Zombies until later and go for the low-hanging fruit first.

Alex, this KS is not about being a WH or GW clone. I have designed a game to launch with my miniatures and always saw this as an opportunity to provide gamers. Wargamers and role players with an alternative to the other metal miniatures available. I didn't set out with the goal of competing against GW goblins and zombies and I was essentially aiming at a different niche, hence having the mixed boxed sets of goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears. As the preparation for the LS progressed I was advised that focusing on GW alternatives was a good move commercially to help get the KS funded. I saw that involving GW players with tempting KS offers would help me get the KS funded. I am not going to go for the low hanging fruit and become another GW clone company because it's not what the KS is about. I never had in mind to make a boxed set of plastic demons that I could produce 20 of for the same price as GW do ten but good luck to anyone who wants to. I just want to fund a skirmish game and produce nice figures that gamers can use for whatever they want. Besides, after downing the amount of money I have already spent on concept art, sculpting etc I don't think changing my focus now is going to be commercially viable.

Just wondering, is this the kind of terrain that might work well for your game?



Looking likely that you'll be running a KS at the same or similar time to battlesystem's fantasy terrain, might be a good opportunity.

That would work nicely!!!!

Kaine Larson wrote:
Alex, this KS is not about being a WH or GW clone. I have designed a game to launch with my miniatures and always saw this as an opportunity to provide gamers. Wargamers and role players with an alternative to the other metal miniatures available. I didn't set out with the goal of competing against GW goblins and zombies and I was essentially aiming at a different niche, hence having the mixed boxed sets of goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears. As the preparation for the LS progressed I was advised that focusing on GW alternatives was a good move commercially to help get the KS funded. I saw that involving GW players with tempting KS offers would help me get the KS funded. I am not going to go for the low hanging fruit and become another GW clone company because it's not what the KS is about. I never had in mind to make a boxed set of plastic demons that I could produce 20 of for the same price as GW do ten but good luck to anyone who wants to. I just want to fund a skirmish game and produce nice figures that gamers can use for whatever they want. Besides, after downing the amount of money I have already spent on concept art, sculpting etc I don't think changing my focus now is going to be commercially viable.

How much emphasis will be put on using these miniatures in Underdeep vs other wargames? Will your system have its own hardcover rulebook? Will the rulebook be part of the box sets?

Kaine Larson wrote:
I just want to fund a skirmish game and produce nice figures that gamers can use for whatever they want. Besides, after downing the amount of money I have already spent on concept art, sculpting etc I don't think changing my focus now is going to be commercially viable.

I'm sorry but I don't follow. How can this be a skirmish game when you say that the Early Birds are going to get a deal of 196 goblins? I don't understand how not cloning GW but involving GW players works....?
More important (Malkaven got to me first) is there going to be a hardcover rule-book to this game? How many pages, when will this be available and when can we get a first glimpse or (even better) beta-version to test it? Will this be included as an add-on or incorporated as part of the pledge? (enough questions asked I think, lol)

The rules will be available free with the KS. There will be a full colour rulebook available as part of the Kickstarter stretch goals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are several arly bird options for hordes of goblins and for starter sets for our game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have tried to be clear here. We want you to use our miniatures for whatever system you want , RPGs, Warhammer, KOW or our own game. Our kickstarter will give you the option of purchasing to suit your needs. If you want tonnes of goblins great, if you need quite a few goblins but also want mix of other creatures then fine. Although the emphasis is on our game we cannot commercially forget other players as they will form a huge percentage if our key demographic.

Makes perfect sense. Releasing the rules as a PDF (ASAP) with the KS also allows feedback, playtesting and revisions to be made before the book goes to the publishers. The last one anyone wants is a lovely looking, published rulebook that is filled with flaws, errors or ambiguities (see: McVey/Sedition Wars; Megacon Games/Myth).

This isn't a hard concept guys.

He has his own game with it's own miniatures.

If someone buys gobbos to play warhammer fantasy, that's good for him.

If someone buys gobbos to play warhammer fantasy,and then starts playing his game with the included rules, that's even better for him.

I bought Zombicide for miniatures for All Things Zombie. After I go the game, I stopped playing ATZ and switched to Zombicide.

How many people have bought Mantics Kings Of War miniatures intending on using them for Warhammer Fantasy, and then decided they liked Kings Of War better ?

Kaine Larson wrote:
I think he was using Shieldwolf as a positive example. They are fine miniatures, in the GW style and you can get twice as many as GW offer for the same price. The is a very good deal. GW still package their goblins in 20's so the savings in price I can offer will not be as good. I am hoping to try and emulate Shieldwolfs models in both quality and value for money.

This is exactly what I was getting at. Thank you.

Corgan - Someone else was using them as an example for a different argument, but picked the wrong product, as the value and aesthetic of the Shieldwolf models simply backed up what I was arguing with that person about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sirio wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Unfortunately, Scarlet Squig seems to have completely lost all sense of objectivity in this thread based on his own personal interest (the Shieldwolf example he gave was awful - their models are literally half the price of GW's and follow the same aesthetic, right down to including one of those silly 2-man spears).

I find this this to be neither true nor fair to the Greeks. I saw what Corgan wrote above but I'm not sure this is it. I don't mean to derail the topic here on these goblins but having read what the Shieldwolf guys are writing in Greek forums even if they haven't directly named GW they want to move away from the GW esthetic. Sure, some of their miniatures can been used for WHFB, I think it's evident, it will help them grow faster and bigger (them making this kit a 2-way use for either orcs or daemons was very clever) but it's not like they are copying the GW counterparts. Heck, if I remember correctly there was a whole debate on the head issue (some people loved it and some hated it!).

"Not fair to the Greeks" was the way the game ended, not what I typed. The heads are a bit different by virtue of being lipless, and they could be used for Demons (or even Daemons) with the right paint (or have their heads swapped out), but they're not-savage orcs. I should point out that I have no problem with having a fantasy aesthetic similar to GW's. It's not like GW came up with all of the aesthetic themselves, anyway. Unless you count Blanche telling the artists to draw and glue skulls to everything as "creative innovation".

There's also no shame or insult in making sure that your fantasy (or sci-fi) models are compatible with the "big fish" in the industry. It's an important consideration, and no doubt helps to sell a lot more models

I don't know why Shieldwolf doesn't interfere here but they are not Avatars of War, they are doing barbarians and Arabs, what does that have to do with copying the "esthetics" of the big company? As for the 2-man spears, apart from the fact they look nothing like the GW spears, they admitted it was a language error and pointed to halberds. Haven't seen any Savage orcs holding halberds now, have you?

Not all of their models - if I gave that impression, then I apologise. The Mountain Orcs were brought up as examples, and those were the kits I was responding to and writing about. Let's call a spade a spade here though - they didn't just happen to include a "halberd" option. And the function of those spears is clear - they're included for Savage Orc weapon proxying, and if you use them for something else, then that's great. But like I said, I have no problem with similar aesthetics, and my AoW models are as good or better than many of my similar GW ones. You seem to think I'm critical of Shieldwolf? I should assure you that I'm not. I have two boxes of the Orcs that we've been discussing, and also some of the Death Deceivers (who have a few more skulls than I'd like, but hey). The figures are great, and the service from Malcolm and the crew there was even better - I've got no hesitation in recommending them or their product to others. But none of that makes the Mountain Orcs any less designed for WHFB-compatibility or means that there's anything wrong with doing so.

Thanks Azazelx I was not sure that I got your point, therefore I ask for the clarification.

Sirio wrote:

I'm sorry but I don't follow. How can this be a skirmish game when you say that the Early Birds are going to get a deal of 196 goblins? I don't understand how not cloning GW but involving GW players works....?

Some of us play mass-battle games (WHFB, KoW, etc) but don't mind who makes the figures that we use as long as they look good to us.

I'm just gonna throw this out: sci-fi is big. Sci-fi is popular. All it would take to tap this market is an optional upgrade sprue with some guns and helmeted heads and maybe some space goggles. Everyone loves space goggles.


Really looking forward to the goblins.

@ Azazelx OK mate, you've been clearer than crystal. I'm interested in this project and will wait for these goblins, I probably missed some stuff and got confused, my bad. I'll wait for more information in the following months from Kaine, I'm sure when his first sculpts show up things will heat up.

Posted on Minion Miniatures' FB wall:





Looks really nice!

Thanks Corgan... You posted it before I could!! The pics Corgan posted are of the Goblin Headcleaver. This will be a five miniature boxed set available in white metal as one of the stretch goals. We have gone for proportions in more in keeping with realism than the super heroic scale figures you see more often. The mini is very fine in regard to its proportions which I personally like. It stands about 25mm to the top of its head so it fits in quite well with a typical 30mm miniature like the GW figure used for comparison. We will have some of the digital sculpts for the plastic minis soon along with the Goblin Skulk. I will also get some 3d prints of the 3ups to show you along with some painted examples.

Very nice! (I think I've said that a lot in this thread )

I like the more realistic scale and the mini is very dynamic and captures the concept art properly.

Indeed, quite nice!

I can't wait to see the lizardfolk.

Lizards sound quite promising indeed. As for the goblin, can we have a comparison pic to a GW goblin? And when do you think the 3ups will be ready for us to have a look?