Chaos Terminators?

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**obsidiankatana**

Alienoid wrote:
I just started pondering this, would it be better to invest in a heldrake than some terminators?

That depends entirely on what the terminators are kitted/intended to kill.

**Lord Krungharr**

If you had to choose, the Heldrake is the better investment. They look at least as cool as Terminators and usually do way more damage (though anti-air is much more prevalent these days).

But I liked that suggestion of Huron making a big squad of Khorne Termies infiltrate. The Icon of Wrath lets them reroll their charge distance AND gives them Furious Charge I think.

Bring a Maulerfiend and Jugger Lord/Spawn unit up beside them for super frenzy on all fronts!

**Ailaros**

astro_nomicon wrote:I can't think of many players who are going to let you charge anything meaningful turn 2 with terminators. . .

The kind that are also facing down 40 khorne berzerkers or rushing invisible maulerfiends or a giant wave of spawn?

Having a tiny pile of terminators thrown at your opponent will just get them killed, yes. Throwing a large pile of terminators at your opponent when the entire rest of your army is smashing into them, is a very different story.

Anyways, MoS vs. MoT, the both give durability (as does MoN, of course), it's just that they give durability against different kinds of weapons.

And helldrakes dont' have the same damage profile as terminators. I can't imagine a situation where a helldrake will ever show up with a big pile of melta or plasma and one-shot a helldrake or a MC. Plus, terminators are way better against hordes. You can't displace against terminators ripping your face off.

**obsidiankatana**

Ailaros wrote:

The kind that are also facing down 40 khorne berzerkers or rushing invisible maulerfiends or a giant wave of spawn?

Having a tiny pile of terminators thrown at your opponent will just get them killed, yes. Throwing a large pile of terminators at your opponent when the entire rest of your army is smashing into them, is a very different story.

Anyways, MoS vs. MoT, the both give durability (as does MoN, of course), it's just that they give durability against different kinds of weapons.

And helldrakes dont' have the same damage profile as terminators. I can't imagine a situation where a helldrake will ever show up with a big pile of melta or plasma and one-shot a helldrake or a MC. Plus, terminators are way better against hordes. You can't displace against terminators ripping your face off.

I would almost never throw terminators at hordes, but again this depends on the horde. Daemonettes/Gaunts/Orks? Nopenopenope, Heldrake away. Guardsmen/CSM Blobs? In go the terminators.

And yet again, this depends on how the terminators are kitted and what they're meant to kill. MoK IoW Terminators 10 strong? Hell yeah I'll chuck them at Orks. Maybe even Gaunts. MoS IoE? Likely not touching anything with a 2+ save, since AP2 weapons hit their Initiative and waste the MoS. 10m MoT? I might actually give them a go against 'nettes.

**Ailaros**

A horde player who knows what displacement means can stop a bale flamer from hitting more than 4 models per shot.

I think a squad of terminators is going to beat that, and by that, I mean bloody face in close combat.

**obsidiankatana**

Ailaros wrote:
A horde player who knows what displacement means can stop a bale flamer from hitting more than 4 models per shot.

I think a squad of terminators is going to beat that, and by that, I mean bloody face in close combat.

Any horde spread to mitigate a flamer template to 4 models is either not a horde, is the only horde, or is in no position to achieve its goal.

**GoliothOnline**

obsidiankatana wrote:
Ailaros wrote:
A horde player who knows what displacement means can stop a bale flamer from hitting more than 4 models per shot.

I think a squad of terminators is going to beat that, and by that, I mean bloody face in close combat.

Any horde spread to mitigate a flamer template to 4 models is either not a horde, is the only horde, or is in no position to achieve its goal.

^ this

I laugh so much at players who say they can "Mitigate damage done to their hordes by displacing models so the templates only hit 3-4 of them" but every time I ask them what they consider a "Horde" to be, they tell me a number between 10-15.

That's not a horde, that's a tactical squad lunch break.

Tell me how effective your Orks are at displacing that Flamer or Cultists, or Guard. Then we can talk about displacing 10 or so wounds on a squad of actual "Horde" size

**Ailaros**

Clearly neither of you have played hordes before. It's plenty possible to be both spread out and still go somewhere.

If your only horde opponents are dumb enough to let you rack up a bunch of hits with a baleflamer, than then they're dumb enough for you not to need a baleflamer to deal with them.

**obsidiankatana**

Ailaros wrote:
Clearly neither of you have played hordes before. It's plenty possible to be both spread out and still go somewhere.

If your only horde opponents are dumb enough to let you rack up a bunch of hits with a baleflamer, than then they're dumb enough for you not to need a baleflamer to deal with them.

I've played against Daemonette hordes, Ork boy blobs, Footguard lists, and Tyranids all. I've done this piloting Tau, CSM, and Marine armies. So while not having played them myself, I have plenty of experience facing them down. Using small blasts alone I've managed to hit 3-4 units per drop. A flamer template is another beast entirely, and the nature of a torrent weapon gives huge flexibility in how many angles it can come from. For you to spread 20 models sufficiently that it will only hit 4 on any angle of approach within a 12'' radius arc would be immensely impressive.

**Alienoid**

Can someone link me to the chaos marines FAQ I can't find it

**Wingeds**

Actually agreeing with Ailaros for once. Gasp!

They do need to be supported. You can't put them on the table in any form and expect them to do anything of note without some sort of game plan.

If you're going for CC, multiple threats gunning down the table with them is the way to go.

If you're going for deepstrike, some long range shooting or a drake or two to soften up whatever their biggest threat will be is a good idea.

I am of the opinion that with the new IG codex, allying in IG will fill A LOT of holes the CSM codex has. I'm looking into running Abaddon with 20 or so terminators deepstriking, with some IG tanks and Arty softening up the landing zone for a turn, then softening up the heavies opposition the 2nd. The Wyvern is ideal for barrage sniping plasma guns.

**astro_nomicon**

whoops should have seen page 2.

**Drakeslayer**

Anyone considered obliterators? They have the durability of a terminator, 2 wounds and can fire with anything. Plus with a MoT they can really bring the pain. Even in a regular 40k game you can field up to 3 squads. That's a whole lot of nastiness out there.
Can't say I'm a fan of the heldrake, mainly because I don't like flyers. I find I've got nowhere to store them and they just end up collecting dust on one of my shelves.

**Exergy**

Drakeslayer wrote:
Anyone considered obliterators? They have the durability of a terminator, 2 wounds and can fire with anything. Plus with a MoT they can really bring the pain. Even in a regular 40k game you can field up to 3 squads. That's a whole lot of nastiness out there.
Can't say I'm a fan of the heldrake, mainly because I don't like flyers. I find I've got nowhere to store them and they just end up collecting dust on one of my shelves.

The consensus is always MoN on Oblits. ID is just too much of an issue to make the better ++ save worth it.

**herpguy**

Ailaros wrote:
Clearly neither of you have played hordes before. It's plenty possible to be both spread out and still go somewhere.

If your only horde opponents are dumb enough to let you rack up a bunch of hits with a baleflamer, than then they're dumb enough for you not to need a baleflamer to deal with them.

Facepalm with more advice that sounds good on paper but doesn't work in actual games.

Also, 40 berserkers? If you brought 40 Berserkers (which is 780 points before upgrades) you have already lost at the list-building stage.

**Wingeds**

Really depends on what he's playing against. While overcosted, they are still scary in large numbers like that.

Throw in some support units and other target priorities, they might make combat turn 3 and do some damage.

**techsoldaten**

Here's what I am doing this weekend:

10 CSM Terminators with MoT
CL with MoT, Terminator Armor, Black Mace
CL with MoT, Terminator Armor, Burning Brand
Spartan Assault Tank

Going to drive up and assault 3 units at a time. I will let you know how it goes.

**SarisKhan**

techsoldaten wrote:
Here's what I am doing this weekend:

10 CSM Terminators with MoT
CL with MoT, Terminator Armor, Black Mace
CL with MoT, Terminator Armor, Burning Brand
Spartan Assault Tank

Going to drive up and assault 3 units at a time. I will let you know how it goes.

Your opponent: "Well, gak."

**ZebioLizard2**

SarisKhan wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
Here's what I am doing this weekend:

10 CSM Terminators with MoT
CL with MoT, Terminator Armor, Black Mace
CL with MoT, Terminator Armor, Burning Brand
Spartan Assault Tank

Going to drive up and assault 3 units at a time. I will let you know how it goes.

Your opponent: "Well, gak."

I'd be laughing, considering he's using a Burning Brand that's going to be tied up into melee, not to mention that is 972 points. Literally half his army at 2000, and even worse at 1500.

Why even have the Burning Brand at all if your going to assault?

**Kain**

techsoldaten wrote:
Here's what I am doing this weekend:

10 CSM Terminators with MoT
CL with MoT, Terminator Armor, Black Mace
CL with MoT, Terminator Armor, Burning Brand
Spartan Assault Tank

Going to drive up and assault 3 units at a time. I will let you know how it goes.

You'd really want something like the blade of the relentless or a chainfist/lightning claw combo rather than a flamer for a unit that's going to get stuck into assault anyway.

Also, that is one hell of an expensive unit that dies just as easily to a bunch of Shootaz, Pulse Rifles, Devourers, or Lasguns.

I'd go for either the MoN or the MoS with the Icon.

**Wingeds**

**Drakeslayer**

At last, the voice of sanity. Besides, you can always fire off one or two rounds from the brand before you get into assault. And with AP3 I would be quaking in my designer power armour boots. Plus the model probably looks awesome anyway, so why not?

**ZebioLizard2**

Wingeds wrote:

I'd be laughing, considering he's using a Burning Brand that's going to be tied up into melee, not to mention that is 972 points. Literally half his army at 2000, and even worse at 1500.

Why even have the Burning Brand at all if your going to assault?

So uh, there's this thing called fun.....

Not everyone plays tournament lists all the time. Not every opponent plays tournament lists all the time. Even if it was a tournament, only 1 person ever wins a tournament, and judging by how 40k players talk about tournaments, you'd think every single person won every single tournament all the time.

Not every opponent plays a mathematically optimized min / max list all the time.

Sometimes people play for fun.. I know that's a foreign concept to some people on here, but sometimes people want to play something cool they thought up. Sometimes people want the challenge of playing something they know won't do well, but they want to do it anyways. The topic of this thread was to ask for tactics, what works for you, what advice do others have. If you're completely against Terminators, say so, and leave the thread.

**Wingeds**

Looks like the only person on edge is you.

**ZebioLizard2**

Wingeds wrote:
Looks like the only person on edge is you.

Nah I'm doing swell, and I'm on topic.

Anyways, might want to try Nurgle marked terminators for that instead, if they are forced to walk it'll help a bit more. Of course you can try Slaanesh and add an Icon in, this way you'll strike before most, deal damage, and can take some extra basic weapon hits.

**Alienoid**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Wingeds wrote:

I'd be laughing, considering he's using a Burning Brand that's going to be tied up into melee, not to mention that is 972 points. Literally half his army at 2000, and even worse at 1500.

Why even have the Burning Brand at all if your going to assault?

So uh, there's this thing called fun.....

Not everyone plays tournament lists all the time. Not every opponent plays tournament lists all the time. Even if it was a tournament, only 1 person ever wins a tournament, and judging by how 40k players talk about tournaments, you'd think every single person won every single tournament all the time.

Not every opponent plays a mathematically optimized min / max list all the time.

Sometimes people play for fun.. I know that's a foreign concept to some people on here, but sometimes people want to play something cool they thought up. Sometimes people want the challenge of playing something they know won't do well, but they want to do it anyways. The topic of this thread was to ask for tactics, what works for you, what advice do others have. If you're completely against Terminators, say so, and leave the thread.

My my did that set you off for some reason? I haven't even spoken of 'fun' 'tournaments' or 'optimized' and you went off on a little tangent of your on me for it, while I simply questioned his usage of burning brand, and the fact that it is 1000 points in one land raider, even my fun lists have something to deal with that.

Fun is not exclusive from slight optimization, if your just gonna throw random things why not instead create a nice narrative campaign battle, where the Chaos Terminators are an elite group that have special rules as well due to being Veterans of Tzeentch, maybe give them two wounds to represent 'Rubric' Terminators of old?

Actually can CSM even use the Spartan now that I think on it? I thought it was SM only (and astral claws tyrant list)

**Kain**

Alienoid wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Wingeds wrote:

I'd be laughing, considering he's using a Burning Brand that's going to be tied up into melee, not to mention that is 972 points. Literally half his army at 2000, and even worse at 1500.

Why even have the Burning Brand at all if your going to assault?

So uh, there's this thing called fun.....

Not everyone plays tournament lists all the time. Not every opponent plays tournament lists all the time. Even if it was a tournament, only 1 person ever wins a tournament, and judging by how 40k players talk about tournaments, you'd think every single person won every single tournament all the time.

Not every opponent plays a mathematically optimized min / max list all the time.

Sometimes people play for fun.. I know that's a foreign concept to some people on here, but sometimes people want to play something cool they thought up. Sometimes people want the challenge of playing something they know won't do well, but they want to do it anyways. The topic of this thread was to ask for tactics, what works for you, what advice do others have. If you're completely against Terminators, say so, and leave the thread.

My my did that set you off for some reason? I haven't even spoken of 'fun' 'tournaments' or 'optimized' and you went off on a little tangent of your on me for it, while I simply questioned his usage of burning brand, and the fact that it is 1000 points in one land raider, even my fun lists have something to deal with that.

Fun is not exclusive from slight optimization, if your just gonna throw random things why not instead create a nice narrative campaign battle, where the Chaos Terminators are an elite group that have special rules as well due to being Veterans of Tzeentch, maybe give them two wounds to represent 'Rubric' Terminators of old?

Actually can CSM even use the Spartan now that I think on it? I thought it was SM only (and astral claws tyrant list)

CSM can not use the spartan (it's not in the codex) unless I'm just not seeing it

**ZebioLizard2**

There is in fact a chaos Spartan Assault Tank from Forgeworld.

Also what the hell did you guys do to the quotes?

No clue, also which book is it in? I cannot seem to find it, I'd actually love to run it for a thing I've got planned.

**Kain**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

There is in fact a chaos Spartan Assault Tank from Forgeworld.

Also what the hell did you guys do to the quotes?

No clue, also which book is it in? I cannot seem to find it, I'd actually love to run it for a thing I've got planned.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Spartan.pdf

Lower right corner.

**McGibs**

The most recent chaos spartan rules are in the Apocalypse 2013 book, along with pretty much every other chaos forgeworld model's most recent rules.