Interesting Quote on the Bundy Cattle Case

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**A Town Called Malus**

daedalus wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
Even if he was right, "I was here first" is one of the worst arguments in the book.

Yeah, everyone knows the trick is to put up a flag instead.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

**d-usa**

That's why we have first dips on moon-cattle grazing rights.

**Jihadin**

Park rangers better bring a well armed response force. Them Seperarist militia..... look "itchy"

**sebster**

whembly wrote:
Yeah, he could have tried to pay the fees, and reduced his herd by 90% as BLM demanded, and then he would be out of business like the 72 other ranchers who used to graze on these lands. And we wouldn’t have heard any more about him than we did about them, would we?

What do you think should happen when you lease land for a purpose, and then the owner doesn't want to continue leasing you that land for that purpose?

Cattle pose no threat to tortoises or other small creatures. They don’t harm the land. They graze... and leave some fertilizer for future grass to grow. That’s it. In effect, they cut the grass on land the government doesn’t use.

Cattle, being large creatures with hard hooves that move in a pack have a massive impact on land they move through. They trample young desert tortoises and crush burrows, and out compete tortoises for food. The impact isn't something people are just making up for fun. You think the bureaucrats in the BLM want to spend their days dealing with Bundy?

Public land does not “belong” to the government. It is OURS, and the government is supposed to managed it for our benefit, NOT to appease environmental wackos or benefit deep pocket political investors.

Sure, and because government is a human and therefore imperfect institution, sometimes the best decision is missed in favour of the decision made by the loudest or best connected special interest.

But the answer to that isn't to start pretending that government is no longer able to decide how federal land is to be used.

First they came for Bundy, and "the public" spoke up and stopped them (for now).

They didn't 'come' for Bundy. They ground this through the courts as the guy argued his case ineffectually for decades, losing every single time. And when after all that had played out and the guy still wouldn't comply with the law, they took action.

Then folks labelled him “racist,” and look what we're discussing now.

He said racist things. Its only sensible that people who say racist things get called racist. I mean, should we just pretend he didn't say what he said?

What's interesting is that so many conservatives were willing to stand by this guy when he said crazy nonsense about government and BLM, but when he said crazy racist things they all backed off real quick. It's interesting how someone can embrace and touch on all kinds of crazy, but racism is an absolute no-no.

**loki old fart**

LordofHats wrote:
loki old fart wrote:

I was more engaged buy the remarks about 1st amendment zones.

1st Amendment Zones were ruled Constitutional, which shouldn't surprise anyone as the government has always had the power to limit the right to protest (hence why you usually get permits to do it).

Doesn't needing a permit, and only been able to speak your mind in certain places. Nullify the first amendment.
Freedom of speech, does not mean freedom to speak where and when we say so.
I,m sure the founding fathers meant free to speak anywhere in the country.

**Ouze**

loki old fart wrote:
Doesn't needing a permit, and only been able to speak your mind in certain places. Nullify the first amendment.

That's really not a black & white, yes or no question.

First, the freedom to speak is not absolute. We all know that, you and I both. Our country would be literally unworkable if every speech was completely protected. The usual example is that you are not free to shout "fire" in a crowded theater. So, use that as a baseline to establish that yes, the government can restrain you speech in principle, and we go from there.

It also can restrain you when your words are likely to cause a clear and present danger to the public. This ranges from the extreme (inciting a riot) to the mundane (disorderly conduct for screaming obscenities at 3am).

So, permitting. You have to balance out the rights of the people to speak to their government at a large rally, vs the compelling rights of the government to have peace and productivity - for example, not shutting down a major bridge, or rallying inside the Pentagon or whatever. The test is that it has to be reasonable. Usually it is, often it's totally bogus - either there is a large fee for the permit, or it gets shot down with little or no reason or appeal. However, the principle is sound.

I generally agree with you that free speech zones are garbage. However, I also recognize a compelling government need to perform lawful work unimpeded by protesters. Let me repeat that word - unimpeded. Not unseen, hidden away in some bs "first amendment zone" jail.

I don't know if their first amendment rights to redress their government with grievances was unfairly suppressed here. Prior experience allows me to speculate and say "probably". This is the sole argument from the Bundy crowd where I can likely find common ground.

**d-usa**

It's probably the area where there was a royal screwup by both parties.

The BLM with the "First Amendment Zones".

The pro-Bundy crowd physically getting in the way of the workers and interfering with the work.

**Ouze**

The fascinating thing is that if they hadn't gotten physical, had gotten more eyeballs on what was going on, and had peacefully protested with civil disobedience; they probably could have won significantly more support from a wider slice of America. I suspect a great many liberals immediately bristle at the phrase "free speech zone", remembering how they were deployed previously.

Not that his case would have been any more righteous, I mean at the end of the day he's still essentially stealing government resources predicated on deciding that America doesn't actually exist and that's a hard tune to dance to. But it would be a much different narrative.

**d-usa**

Hey, they peacefully assembled their snipers to shoot at the BLM guys. "Peacefully" because they weren't going to shoot first.

**Ouze**

Frankly, I think the proper things to have done would have been in, in this order:

1.) Anyone who impeded the roundup should have been arrested for obstructing justice. I'm talking about you, ATV guy, and anyone else who touched a law enforcement officer.

2.) Anyone who unholstered or unslung a firearm should have been charged with brandishing and/or menacing, as local statute dictates.

3.) If the crowd was heavily armed, and impeding the roundup, the governor should have deployed the national guard to keep the peace.

4.) If the governor refuses to do so, the federal government should deploy the US Army to keep the peace, pursuant to the Insurrection Act. But oh man, it would have needed to have gone a lot farther than it did for this to have happened. I mean, riot-level violence. And if that had happened, I can't imagine the governor would refuse to do so.

The least desirable outcome would have been surrendering the rule of law in the face of extremism, as of course was actually chosen. "These colors don't run", unless it's politically expedient, I guess. Well, as Breotan noted, it's a election year, and no one wants a Waco right before the midterms.

**reds8n**

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/bundy-ranch-uncensored

BUNKERVILLE, Nevada -- At the Bundy camp last week, pundits and politicians descended on Bunkerville, Nevada, to throw in their American flag hats with the BLM protestors. A FOX news van had been parked by the side of the road for days. Up on the ridge, militia snipers kept a trained watch as Bundy held court, and disciples from far and wide came to share their personal theories as to why the government was enforcing a court order.

But on Thursday, we witnessed a mainstream exodus from Bundy’s flank. Sean Hannity, Bundy’s biggest booster, called his racist remarks “beyond despicable,” but maintained that they should not taint the supporters who “for the right reasons saw this case as government overreach.”

Exactly how difficult was it, though, to determine pretty early on that Bundy and his followers were using the threat of force to back up some terrifyingly misguided beliefs?

During the few hours I visited last week, this was what was said.

In the background, a singer with an American-flag guitar warms up the stage with a raspy hollering he explains as Tibetan throat singing. Suddenly noticing a man off to the side shaking maracas, he stops and grips the mic:

"Is there really a black man in the house?” A lone “whoo” goes up from the folding chairs. "You’re with the media, right?” The cameraman nods, and the singer returns his focus to the folding chairs. “So, are we racists here today? That’s how they’re trying to spin this one — this is good. Channel 13 came at me the other day — a cute little blonde, of course. They sent her at me, y’know, go get the story! Go get the radical…” The generator cuts out, silencing the mic, and the story about how he isn’t a racist is lost.

A militia member with the group Oath Keepers named Mark, who drove in from out of state by way of Zion National Park (“which was absolutely beautiful — you should go”), offers to explain to me the truth behind public land management.

“The assumption is that the BLM is part of the federal government. But we need to check the facts on that one. The BLM doesn’t work for the government: they work for the United Nations. They might as well be wearing blue helmets. If we find out there’s money being exchanged between Harry Reid and the Chinese government, no one should be surprised.”

A self-trained lawyer tells me the same. He adds that Bar-certified lawyers, like the ones who prosecuted Bundy, have sworn loyalty to the British government, whose statutes encourage sex with clients. “That’s what they do with all their clients.”

It’s dizzying and hot at the camp, and a very friendly man named Roy, wearing an Obama t-shirt with a joker smile painted on, hands me a cold bottle. He's from nearby Mesquite and has been a close friend and supporter of Bundy's these last few years. When I tell him I’m from New Mexico, the former cop says he has a very good buddy who used to work as a sheriff in my area.

“He got in a bit of trouble,” he chuckles. “He pulled over a carload of illegals one night, didn’t have room to haul ‘em all, so he put a chain around their neck and put a padlock through it, went to the next one, then he chained ‘em to a tree!”

He buckles with laughter as the story heats up. “Then he left ‘em and went to town to get his pickup to haul ‘em all back in. So, you might imagine, that didn’t play well — ha! You’re a young’un, but everything wasn’t against the law, way back when.”

He says it's now being proved that the BLM acted on orders from Troy and Harry Reid, who want to build a solar farm on the land — or a wind farm, he says. He recommends that I look up a Fox News segment that explains how the government is trying to put people out of work, “’Enemy of the State’, it’s called.”

Soon enough, a handful of junior politicians and the Bundy family are ushered on stage with a full compliment of assault-weaponed militia and a man with binoculars.

The crowd, fresh off their victory at the Battle of Bunkerville, gives Bundy a standing ovation. But he doesn’t seem pleased. He reproaches the crowd for failing to follow the word of God – to the letter – which he says is being delivered through him. They failed, for example, to follow his instructions to tear down the toll booths at Lake Mead and disarm the Park Service.

"The message I gave to you all was a revelation that I received. And yet not one of you can seem to even quote it.”

Cliven continues, sermon-like: "The records of our bible — how long have they been kept? Thousands of years. They’ve been turned over generation after generation, buried, and all kinds of things happen to ‘em. And yet, here, something I felt was inspired [by God] and yet we haven’t even carried it forth for even a couple of days. Shame on us.” Smattering of clapping.

He goes on to explain that, although they managed to deter the BLM, they failed to do it "within one hour," as the revelation had prophesied. So when an hour passes, he decides to get in his bulldozer and march on the BLM himself. The dozer gets stuck in the mud and he receives another revelation.

“It come to my mind real plain — the good Lord said, ‘Bundy, it’s not your job, it’s THEIR job.’ So we come back over here and heard that they had brought some cattle back. So I want you to understand,” addressing the crowd, "This is not my job, it’s YOUR job.

"This morning, I said a prayer, and this is what I received. I heard a voice say, 'Sheriff Gillespie, your work is not done. Every sheriff across the United States, take the guns away from the United States bureaucrats.’” Lots of clapping for this.

Bundy goes on for a good while and militia members are forced to leave their chairs to walk around and get water.

A former Arizona sheriff turned Texas political candidate, Richard Mack, speaks next.

“I don’t believe the BLM has any authority whatsoever — they have no law enforcement authority in Clark County.” In conclusion he yells into the microphone, “(William Wallace!) FREEEDOOOOOM!"

After the speeches, Nevada Assemblywoman Michelle Fiore steps off the stage. Wearing a diamond-studded pistol pendant, she raises her eyebrows in the direction of a shadowy government operation. "When you really look at this, it’s not about the environmental stuff — it’s a lot deeper than what’s coming out in the media.”

In the downtime, a group of men laments the way the world has changed. Obama, a Muslim Kenyan, doesn't let kids say the pledge in school anymore. Steve, from Beaver, Utah, says it’s all down to regulation and changes that happened during Vietnam. “I want it to be like it was growing up in the fifties. I want it to be just like that — for [the kids]. Though it can’t be just like that, because they have the internet.”

"That's what's wrong: the Internet," agrees another.

Behind us, an older man, whose face is cut up from tumbling down a hill during the protest, gets into his beige sedan to leave. It's covered in lettering:

IF YOU WERE BORN IN 1980 AND AFTER. YOU MAY BE IMPLANTED WITH A GOVERNMENT MICROCHIP WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE: GOOGLE DOCTORS THAT REMOVE MICROCHIPS.

"Google MKUltra,” he says cryptically, “Then you’ll find what I’m about.”

Before leaving the Bunkerville trenches, I watch Sean Hannity's Bundy segment that aired the day before the militias took up arms against the BLM. Hannity mistakenly asserts that the federal government is trying to kick him off state land — and then he says something that only makes sense in the context of the Bundy camp.

“I’m worried about the lies that are told to us about the NSA, about the IRS, about what happened in Benghazi, and the lies that sold healthcare. I’m frankly concerned that the government is making a deal over,” he says as he tacks to the center. “I don’t know why they’re taking a stand here. Has anyone given you any information why?”

Welfare negroes, the United Nations, sexually devious lawyers, satan, a Chinese solar farm, microchips, secret-agent NPS, a Muslim-Kenyan president, hippies, illegals. Take your pick.

A self-trained lawyer tells me the same. He adds that Bar-certified lawyers, like the ones who prosecuted Bundy, have sworn loyalty to the British government, whose statutes encourage sex with clients. “That’s what they do with all their clients.”

No, when we saw we got fethed by our lawyer, that's not what we mean.

Steve, from Beaver, Utah, says it’s all down to regulation and changes that happened during Vietnam. “I want it to be like it was growing up in the fifties. I want it to be just like that — for [the kids].

.. well ... least Putin's doing his part ! What are you doing to bring about once again the impending threat of nuclear annihilation huh ?!?

Nothing.

Better shape up soon !

"That's what's wrong: the Internet,"

**Frazzled**

The Harry Reid's son/China link is very interesting here actually.

**Jihadin**

4.) If the governor refuses to do so, the federal government should deploy the US Army to keep the peace, pursuant to the Insurrection Act. But oh man, it would have needed to have gone a lot farther than it did for this to have happened. I mean, riot-level violence. And if that had happened, I can't imagine the governor would refuse to do so.

Well...um....HELL NO.....not only Hell no but HELL F'ing NO...

Combat Troops, DESERT, Visible Weapons around in DESERT, and live ammo....reliving a combat deployment scenario

One idiot on the protester side squeezing a round...or a Park Ranger squeezing one off

Combat mode kicks in. Protesters zip cuff, Park Rangers bundle to the side, K9 unit secured back in trucks, and shooter(s) neutralized. Only one side will matter and that's the Army.

**Frazzled**

4.) If the governor refuses to do so, the federal government should deploy the US Army to keep the peace, pursuant to the Insurrection Act. But oh man, it would have needed to have gone a lot farther than it did for this to have happened. I mean, riot-level violence. And if that had happened, I can't imagine the governor would refuse to do so.

Thats illegal.

Its impressive that you want to start a massacre over what is effectively a civil dispute about rental fees that is potentially driven by a crony contract with Reid's kid.

**Medium of Death**

What's the Reid's kid connection?

This isn't that China conspiracy thing mentioned by those Bundy supporting mentalists?

**d-usa**

It's a completely irrelevant distraction since Bundy has zero claim to the land and has not paid his bills.

**Frazzled**

d-usa wrote:
It's a completely irrelevant distraction since Bundy has zero claim to the land and has not paid his bills.

Its not actually.

Reid's kid arranged a sweetheart land deal for a Chinese investor on the order of tens of millions of dollars. That investment would impact the turtle, so they need land to offset and mitigate the enviro impact. Guess where the land is...

Again, BLM did the smart thing. Getting into a gun battle over rental fees is an impressively stupid idea when there are other ways to handle it. In most areas, dare I say even Texas, you can't shut up your opposition because they aren't paying rent. Maybe in California. When Frazzled is saying the Obama adminstration/federal government did somethign right then you know the world has gotten weird.

Now there's news that Toyota is moving its headquarters from California to Dallas. Lock and Load boys, the Zombies er Californians have breached the Austin Quarantine Zone!

Poor Texas, so far from God, so overwhelmed by Californians...

**d-usa**

Frazzled wrote:
d-usa wrote:
It's a completely irrelevant distraction since Bundy has zero claim to the land and has not paid his bills.

Its not actually.

Reid's kid arranged a sweetheart land deal for a Chinese investor on the order of tens of millions of dollars. That investment would impact the turtle, so they need land to offset and mitigate the enviro impact. Guess where the land is...

Did the Chinese steal Bundy's check for the grazing fees?

If they didn't then it doesn't matter.

**Medium of Death**

Perhaps that's what has spurred it on, but it hardly makes it particularly corrupt or sinister.

Bundy has had more than a fair chance to prove it's his land, which he hasn't. Time for him to give it back, well more accurately and to use a phrase well worn... get off the BLMs lawn.

**Relapse**

Frazzled wrote:
d-usa wrote:
It's a completely irrelevant distraction since Bundy has zero claim to the land and has not paid his bills.

Its not actually.

Reid's kid arranged a sweetheart land deal for a Chinese investor on the order of tens of millions of dollars. That investment would impact the turtle, so they need land to offset and mitigate the enviro impact. Guess where the land is...

Again, BLM did the smart thing. Getting into a gun battle over rental fees is an impressively stupid idea when there are other ways to handle it. In most areas, dare I say even Texas, you can't shut up your opposition because they aren't paying rent. Maybe in California. When Frazzled is saying the Obama adminstration/federal government did somethign right then you know the world has gotten weird.

Now there's news that Toyota is moving its headquarters from California to Dallas. Lock and Load boys, the Zombies er Californians have breached the Austin Quarantine Zone!

Poor Texas, so far from God, so overwhelmed by Californians...

Is there any news on the BLM and the Texas ranchers along the Red River? It would be interesting to see what is going on with that and what the local news says.

**Ouze**

Frazzled wrote:

4.) If the governor refuses to do so, the federal government should deploy the US Army to keep the peace, pursuant to the Insurrection Act. But oh man, it would have needed to have gone a lot farther than it did for this to have happened. I mean, riot-level violence. And if that had happened, I can't imagine the governor would refuse to do so.

Thats illegal.

No, you're wrong. It's totally legal, and in fact we deployed troops in Los Angeles in 1992 during the riots when the local law enforcement was unable to restore order, a situation which seems somewhat similar to this, in that, law enforcement is pulling out because they feel unsafe.

Frazzled wrote:
Its impressive that you want to start a massacre over what is effectively a civil dispute about rental fees that is potentially driven by a crony contract with Reid's kid.

Don't make up gak I didn't say and pretend that's what I said. I said they should go to keep the peace.

Frazzled wrote:
Reid's kid arranged a sweetheart land deal for a Chinese investor on the order of tens of millions of dollars. That investment would impact the turtle, so they need land to offset and mitigate the enviro impact. Guess where the land is...

1.) Unless it's two decades ago, it's irrelevant

2.) The grazing area is in the little Florida shaped area under the protest site.

And of course, there is this. It's also on Snopes. The whole Harry Reid angle is just, 110%, made up bs that even 20 seconds of cursory googling shows.

Please, tell me more. Because, I know there are all these pesky facts, but, BLM.

**d-usa**

Well, to me there is not even any reason to debate he validity of it since it has nothing to do with Bundy not having an claim and not paying his bills.

**Frazzled**

d-usa wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
d-usa wrote:
It's a completely irrelevant distraction since Bundy has zero claim to the land and has not paid his bills.

Its not actually.

Reid's kid arranged a sweetheart land deal for a Chinese investor on the order of tens of millions of dollars. That investment would impact the turtle, so they need land to offset and mitigate the enviro impact. Guess where the land is...

Did the Chinese steal Bundy's check for the grazing fees?

If they didn't then it doesn't matter.

It does if thats why the BLM started pushing so hard all of a sudden.

Again the use of gunmen to settle a rental agreement, while the subject of men chopsaki classics, is not typically how you handle that in a civilized society.

**d-usa**

You don't send in gunmen to handle trespassing cattle.

You send in gunmen to handle the idiot militia that brought guns to a steak fight.

**Relapse**

An opinion page from the local paper:

http://mvprogress.com/2014/04/23/no-one-asked-me-but-april-23-2014/

The guy does have a point in that the federal government is selectivly picking which laws on the books to enforce.

Just to reiterate from earlier posts, I think both sides are wrong, but I think the greater blame is on the side of the BLM in the incompetent way they handled this. About the only intelligent thing they did was to withdraw before shots were fired.
They certainly alienated most of the people there with the over the top methods they used.

On side note is the fact that not far from Laughlin is a small ghosttown in Arizona called Oatman, where wild burros roam the street in fair sized herds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oatman,_Arizona

Took my family there and the kids loved it. If ever you go make sure you buy a big bag of carrots. We did and the critters followed us all over the place

**d-usa**

Burros are satan's spawns...

**Relapse**

d-usa wrote:
Burros are satan's spawns...

I had a five pound bag of carrots and people were offering to buy theem at a buck each so they could feed the burros. I didn't have the heart to take advantage, so I just gave them out. On this particular visit to my sister, we stayed in Laughlin at a casino and were swimming at night in the rooftop pool that we had to ourselves, since it was off season, explored all over Hoover Dam and had a general great time. After that we went back to Overton and hiked all over the desert and target shot with bb guns for a couple days, coming back at night to my sister's place.
It is actually quite an incredible area.

This is extremely close, and we always go all through this place as well as check out the museum at the end of town:

http://www.viator.com/tours/Las-Vegas/Valley-of-Fire-and-Lost-City-Museum-Tour-from-Las-Vegas/d684-5119_O0037

**Frazzled**

d-usa wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
d-usa wrote:
It's a completely irrelevant distraction since Bundy has zero claim to the land and has not paid his bills.

Its not actually.

Reid's kid arranged a sweetheart land deal for a Chinese investor on the order of tens of millions of dollars. That investment would impact the turtle, so they need land to offset and mitigate the enviro impact. Guess where the land is...

Did the Chinese steal Bundy's check for the grazing fees?

If they didn't then it doesn't matter.

It does matter if thats whats driving the urgency on this and the whole Reid ":they're domestic terrorists!!! But that got who shouted ALLAH AKBAR and shot all the troops at Fort Hood, thats just workplace violence."

I'll restate, bringing in riflemen to settle your rent bill is generally illegal to anyone else. The BLM did a good thing in backing off and cooling the situation. THIS IS WHAT THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE AT WACO.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
d-usa wrote:
It's a completely irrelevant distraction since Bundy has zero claim to the land and has not paid his bills.

Its not actually.

Reid's kid arranged a sweetheart land deal for a Chinese investor on the order of tens of millions of dollars. That investment would impact the turtle, so they need land to offset and mitigate the enviro impact. Guess where the land is...

Again, BLM did the smart thing. Getting into a gun battle over rental fees is an impressively stupid idea when there are other ways to handle it. In most areas, dare I say even Texas, you can't shut up your opposition because they aren't paying rent. Maybe in California. When Frazzled is saying the Obama adminstration/federal government did somethign right then you know the world has gotten weird.

Now there's news that Toyota is moving its headquarters from California to Dallas. Lock and Load boys, the Zombies er Californians have breached the Austin Quarantine Zone!

Poor Texas, so far from God, so overwhelmed by Californians...

Is there any news on the BLM and the Texas ranchers along the Red River? It would be interesting to see what is going on with that and what the local news says.

Abbott has sent official letters. Senator Cornyn has sent official letters. I think there will be major lawsuite if its tried. This is actually owned land and at best it would be Okie state land. The BLM is claim jumping no matter how you look at it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:
You don't send in gunmen to handle trespassing cattle.

You send in gunmen to handle the idiot militia that brought guns to a steak fight.

NO. you back and let the situation settle down, and put a lien on all his property so he can't sell

.

if he actually did something illegal you bust him at the local diner.

**hotsauceman1**

loki old fart wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
Even if he was right, "I was here first" is one of the worst arguments in the book.

I was more engaged buy the remarks about 1st amendment zones. HOW IF YOU STAND HERE YOU CAN PROTEST, but if you stand there you have no rights to speak so be quiet. What a stupid concept. Also watched another video where BLM was threatening to arrest police officers. lol.

Then all land should belond to the chinese the first settlers in america.

**Frazzled**

No, you're wrong. It's totally legal, and in fact we deployed troops in Los Angeles in 1992 during the riots when the local law enforcement was unable to restore order, a situation which seems somewhat similar to this, in that, law enforcement is pulling out because they feel unsafe.

You deployed the state guard to protect rich people in Hollywood from their rightoues comeuppance DOWN WITH THE 1%!!!

. You didn't start a war. Quit talking nonsense.

Don't make up gak I didn't say and pretend that's what I said. I said they should go to keep the peace.

Keeping the peace Russian style. I like that.

1.) Unless it's two decades ago, it's irrelevant

Its now and why the BLM was in a hurry all of a sudden.

Please, tell me more. Because, I know there are all these pesky facts, but, BLM.

Its not, but keep telling yourself that.