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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
If that IG vs Eldar thing is true then that's just what the game needed.

More Eldar Serpentspam. Yay.

IG vs Eldar as a starter? That's awesome! I doubt there will be a wave serpent in the box. But for one, it's not SM vs something (which makes it doubtful, actually). Two, the starter is the perfect place for a bunch of plastic models that arent available elsewhere- Eldar could see some jetbikes and some aspect warriors, maybe an autarch and warlock in plastic. IG would get cheap models to expand their numbers.

Imagine a box that was say an Autarch, a warlock, 12 guardians, 5 swooping hawks, and 3 jetbikes vs 20 guard, a command squad with a commissar and psyker, 3 missile launchers, and a sentinel.

WayneTheGame wrote:


A smart game designer would first write rules that are intended to be played in a tournament (i.e. balanced and concise) and then add in options for campaign/narrative/cinematic/non-tournament play that loosen up the normally-restrictive rules. GW, however, does the opposite - they write loose rules with the unstated assumption that everyone only plays campaign/narrative/cinematic/non-competitive games, so rules are written either only for that style of play or require discussion beforehand, and feth anyone else. They're operating, like most everything else they do, at a complete 180 to how they should be doing things.

A smart game designer would create a game that anyone could play against anyone else and still have an enjoyable time without having to debate what things mean.

I could go into any game store and play Axis and Allies (any version), X-wing, and many others against just about anyone that walks through the door and have a good time. Heck, I could go in and play a game of Zombiecide with just about anyone, that game is highly mutable and changes every time that you play it, it also requires lots of teamwork and cooperation among players but there's not a lot of dispute on what the rules are.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
If that IG vs Eldar thing is true then that's just what the game needed.

More Eldar Serpentspam. Yay.

While we don't have any specific rumors of the role of dedicated transports in the new FOC, I would assume that if they are so thoroughly addressing other FOC abuses, they will also include something to address dedicated transport spam.

At the very least, a new core ruleset will force them to FAQ Eldar, and they could take that opportunity to make the Serpent Shield a One-Shot-Only weapon, as it is in the fluff.

The meta is changing, the current crop of OP Spam lists and deathstars are going away, it would be a shame is Wave Serpent Spam and Necron Flying circus were left unaddressed.

rexscarlet wrote:
Boycott needs to be NOW! (or this will continue to happen)
.
$75 Main/Big Rule Book obsolete in less than two years (6e 23rd of June, 2012)
Wow, just wow.
.
No "new" FaQs for months, no older FaQs on the "new" website. Now the excuse will be that GW was gearing up for the change.
No rules Support, ever.
Massive flooding of multiple Rule Books with huge issues attached to each.
Constantly making "current" purchased publications obsolete with a release of another purchased publication.
No Battle Bunkers, No tables in GW stores.(where we used to go to see what "fair" House Rules were being used by a large majority, rather than relying on non GW Tournaments).
GW Stock in the toilet.
.
All of which We will have to Pay For.
.
Boycott Now

No thanks, you have fun with that. Let us know if you sell off your models.

If we're talking about Flying Circus Lists then the Nids and Daemons need to be addressed too.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
the game needs LESS of things like that.

it really flat out defeats the purpose, and is unnecessary, because you can house rule anything you want out. so just leave everything legal. less dramas, more options,

things like allies, BB needs toning down.
SHV, needs StrD weapons sorted out.
why just flat out remove them and not just fix the problems.?

Hopefully they fix them rather than just dump things, though lets be honest, they wont be, after already adding escalation to the game a couple of months back its here to stay, same as allies, just be hoping they fix them to be a bit more sensible

You don't seem to understand that it's easier to loosen restrictions than to add them in. If things like allies are optional, it's easier for the casual/narrative people to add them to games than it is for the competitive players to get rid of them if they are "core". That's why there needs to be solid core rules and everything else (flyers, escalation, allies, strongholds, etc.) as OPTIONAL extras; little or no hassle to add them in for friendly narrative games, but tournaments and competitive gamers can safely ignore them instead of having to house-rule them away.

Also, natfka is now reporting a new starter set containing Astra Militarum vs. Eldar. I guess he can't make up his mind. So it's either Orks vs. BA for 40k, Orks vs. BA for a revised Epic (yeah, right) or now AM vs. Eldar (which I call BS on, there's never been a starter set that didn't have Space Marines)

and how is it easier to loosen rather than tighten? if everywhere expects everything all the time, then all those shiny models GW wants to sell it can sell, rather than the current atmosphere of oh your taking that out, nah wont play you, or those rubbish excuses of no FW, allow it all and let individuals decice what they dont want, also TO's house rule the hell out of things anyway.
and im very sorry but as someone who like to field things, if something like allies becomes optional, when you play a PUG that means jo blogs can do a big nahh cant use that.
and something from when i play tournaments, comments like minimise the game, is NOT a good thing. otherwise it will become a very basic SvPvR situation, variety is good and i think every one of those things you listed belongs in 40k,

 Idolator wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
So, we have 10 pages of doomsaying, speculation, premature ragequits and panic based on the fact that the core book is currently unavailable..? Good thing thing that 40k radio actually said that a new edition will be coming shortly, otherwise this would seem a bit silly.

It's a news and rumor thread in a news and rumor forum discussing some news and rumors. Yet, you show up to throw derision. That seems a pointless exercise.

Don't get me wrong, I hope for some decent rules as much as the next guy, I'll just be laughing my ass off when they put the regular 6th ed BRB back in, because the new printed stock did finally arrive.

Thought the new starter box was rumored to be Blood Angels Vs Orks already.

Customer Service wrote back to me again (emphasis mine):

Hello,

Thanks for writing in to us, although I don’t have great news for you. We don't have any other information at this time.

Sorry we couldn’t be any more help than this.

I like the use of "great news" there.

Will the new rumored rules help bikes or terminators?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Thought the new starter box was rumored to be Blood Angels Vs Orks already.

Which was then followed by a rumor that the same stuff was actually a set for the relaunch of Epic in 10mm.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Customer Service wrote back to me again (emphasis mine):

Hello,

Thanks for writing in to us, although I don’t have great news for you. We don't have any other information at this time.

Sorry we couldn’t be any more help than this.

I like the use of "great news" there.

Man, GW must have a list of approved terms that must be added to all correspondences with customers.

Don't think there will be a huge change this time round (if it happens) as forgeworld has a great cash cow in the Horus heresy and making £70 books obsolete every two years will kill the project long before it's complete.

For instance seventh invalidating £210 worth of books
Then 8th invalidating £420 worth of books

Etc etc

It would be dead before they got to terra.

Forgeworld has been the pearl in the snotty grey oyster of GW of late. They would have to be very desperate to destroy that.

 Accolade wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Customer Service wrote back to me again (emphasis mine):

Hello,

Thanks for writing in to us, although I don’t have great news for you. We don't have any other information at this time.

Sorry we couldn’t be any more help than this.

I like the use of "great news" there.

Man, GW must have a list of approved terms that must be added to all correspondences with customers.

It's a 4" thick manual with a term a page with several paragraphs explain why and how you use it correctly.

wufai wrote:
From a business point to view it makes great sense. Sales are dropping and the best way to boost sales is make its customer base all buy a new rulebook.

Actually, not necessarily.

If sales are dropping because of dissatisfaction with the product, then you need to fix the product. In that case doing a massive fix to the rules and releasing a new rule book could potentially stop or slow the defections. However if the changes go too far, as in if Jervis has any more to do with it, then it's likely to cause an even higher defection rate.

However, If sales are dropping because of pricing issues - then releasing a new rule book will likely increase the defections. After all, if every customer needs to spend an extra $75 or so in order to continue playing and they were already on the fence then you've just given them the excuse to change game systems.

From a risk management perspective, if I was leading GW, I wouldn't have taken this approach. Instead, I would have focused on FAQ'ing things while watching various web sites for what problems people were having. YMDC is a good area, not because of some of the arguing and debate that occurs but rather just what questions are being asked and how often. For example, cover saves come up A LOT. So that's an area that needs to be better worded or reworked. When I had a solid enough set of FAQs that addressed a broad range of issues THEN I'd release an update to the main rule book as the risk then is very minor.

Oh for gods sake, Like GW doesn't make enough money out of me? I'll inevitably end up buying it, but I certainly hope this is just an update to 6th and not a new edition entirely....

Be quite annoyed that I just bought my '6th edition Tyranids Codex'

 ascended_mike wrote:
Oh for gods sake, Like GW doesn't make enough money out of me? I'll inevitably end up buying it, but I certainly hope this is just an update to 6th and not a new edition entirely....

Be quite annoyed that I just bought my '6th edition Tyranids Codex'

A new edition doesn't mean a new codex for Nids to immediately follow.

 Kosake wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
So, we have 10 pages of doomsaying, speculation, premature ragequits and panic based on the fact that the core book is currently unavailable..? Good thing thing that 40k radio actually said that a new edition will be coming shortly, otherwise this would seem a bit silly.

It's a news and rumor thread in a news and rumor forum discussing some news and rumors. Yet, you show up to throw derision. That seems a pointless exercise.

Don't get me wrong, I hope for some decent rules as much as the next guy, I'll just be laughing my ass off when they put the regular 6th ed BRB back in, because the new printed stock did finally arrive.

Then why did they instruct stores to pull existing stock off of the shelves?

 Idolator wrote:

 Kosake wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
So, we have 10 pages of doomsaying, speculation, premature ragequits and panic based on the fact that the core book is currently unavailable..? Good thing thing that 40k radio actually said that a new edition will be coming shortly, otherwise this would seem a bit silly.

It's a news and rumor thread in a news and rumor forum discussing some news and rumors. Yet, you show up to throw derision. That seems a pointless exercise.

Don't get me wrong, I hope for some decent rules as much as the next guy, I'll just be laughing my ass off when they put the regular 6th ed BRB back in, because the new printed stock did finally arrive.

Then why did they instruct stores to pull existing stock off of the shelves?

To troll the internet?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Kosake wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
So, we have 10 pages of doomsaying, speculation, premature ragequits and panic based on the fact that the core book is currently unavailable..? Good thing thing that 40k radio actually said that a new edition will be coming shortly, otherwise this would seem a bit silly.

It's a news and rumor thread in a news and rumor forum discussing some news and rumors. Yet, you show up to throw derision. That seems a pointless exercise.

Don't get me wrong, I hope for some decent rules as much as the next guy, I'll just be laughing my ass off when they put the regular 6th ed BRB back in, because the new printed stock did finally arrive.

Then why did they instruct stores to pull existing stock off of the shelves?

To troll the internet?

That would be the only other reason. Just for spite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just as an aside. There are no markings on the BRB's denoting which edition they are. If a new book comes out, if there are any changes at all it will be the seventh edition printed.

I mean any changes, punctuation, pictures, foreward, anything.

You can call it what ever you want. six and a half, 6.5, Edition 6-2.0, Clarabelle. But it would be the Seventh Edition in print.

 Idolator wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Kosake wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
So, we have 10 pages of doomsaying, speculation, premature ragequits and panic based on the fact that the core book is currently unavailable..? Good thing thing that 40k radio actually said that a new edition will be coming shortly, otherwise this would seem a bit silly.

It's a news and rumor thread in a news and rumor forum discussing some news and rumors. Yet, you show up to throw derision. That seems a pointless exercise.

Don't get me wrong, I hope for some decent rules as much as the next guy, I'll just be laughing my ass off when they put the regular 6th ed BRB back in, because the new printed stock did finally arrive.

Then why did they instruct stores to pull existing stock off of the shelves?

To troll the internet?

That would be the only other reason. Just for spite.

It's just a big "marketing" move that requires absolutely no cash on the part of GW to perform. Have the stores put a bunch of somewhat unrelated boxes on a table. Make a nebulous "last chance" statement and Presto: everyone on the internet talks about it, articles are written, etc. All of the publicity encourages people to go into the stores while so of them actually buy stuff.

If everything sells then the "last chance" statement works out. If it doesn't, then you just put it back on the shelf while quietly saying that new stock came in after all... Brilliant if you ask me.

 Idolator wrote:

Just as an aside. There are no markings on the BRB's denoting which edition they are. If a new book comes out, if there are any changes at all it will be the seventh edition printed.

I mean any changes, punctuation, pictures, foreward, anything.

You can call it what ever you want. six and a half, 6.5, Edition 6-2.0. But it would be the Seventh Edition in print.

I think you're conflating "edition" with "printing". If the exact same book comes out it will be 6th edition, second printing or whatever. See http://www.booklibris.com/BLFirstEditionID.htm

One thought, if GW were more customer facing, had some form of formal public facing way to take all feedback, do we think we would have so many forums moaning about their inability to seem to care for the customer?

The amount of moaning and negative posting surely has to be a result of their inability to connect with their fanbase/customers.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
If we're talking about Flying Circus Lists then the Nids and Daemons need to be addressed too.

Both are already addressed.

The core of tyranid flying circus is the Flyrant. You can only have one flyrant until you get to 1850 total points for the game. At that point level you can only have 2 Crones and a Harpy, but not 3 crones. Essentially Tyranid 5 FMC's become unlocked at 1850, with only 3 FMC's available in smaller games.

The Skyblight is another way to unlock more FMCs for tyranids, but it is a very expensive formation. Clocking in at 800 points. That means it is not available until you are playing a 3250 point game.

I'm not quite as familiar with Demon Flying Circus. I think it has Fateweaver, and the Lord of Change. That adds up to 530 and doesn't come available until 2250 points.

 Kosake wrote:
I never understood why Rhinos were not considered assault vehicles in the first place...

But yeah, 6th edition being the Vista to the upcoming 7th edition Win7 sounds promising. Unless GW makes you pawn your organs to pay for all the new books, codices and slates you'll still need.

Well, I don't know about models but I have been known to sell plasma at the plasma bank to pay for paint. Blood for the Blood God = Paint for the Paint God


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a matter of fact I am waiting in line to do that right now.

tag8833 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
If we're talking about Flying Circus Lists then the Nids and Daemons need to be addressed too.

Both are already addressed.

The core of tyranid flying circus is the Flyrant. You can only have one flyrant until you get to 1850 total points for the game. At that point level you can only have 2 Crones and a Harpy, but not 3 crones. Essentially Tyranid 5 FMC's become unlocked at 1850, with only 3 FMC's available in smaller games.

The Skyblight is another way to unlock more FMCs for tyranids, but it is a very expensive formation. Clocking in at 800 points. That means it is not available until you are playing a 3250 point game.

I'm not quite as familiar with Demon Flying Circus. I think it has Fateweaver, and the Lord of Change. That adds up to 530 and doesn't come available until 2250 points.

What in the world are you talking about here? 40K doesn't use a percentage based system and you can get either of those formations into MUCH smaller games. Or are you saying that they will be addressed in the new edition IF they go to percentage based like WHFB?

tag8833 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
If we're talking about Flying Circus Lists then the Nids and Daemons need to be addressed too.

Both are already addressed.

The core of tyranid flying circus is the Flyrant. You can only have one flyrant until you get to 1850 total points for the game. At that point level you can only have 2 Crones and a Harpy, but not 3 crones. Essentially Tyranid 5 FMC's become unlocked at 1850, with only 3 FMC's available in smaller games.

The Skyblight is another way to unlock more FMCs for tyranids, but it is a very expensive formation. Clocking in at 800 points. That means it is not available until you are playing a 3250 point game.

I'm not quite as familiar with Demon Flying Circus. I think it has Fateweaver, and the Lord of Change. That adds up to 530 and doesn't come available until 2250 points.

where are you getting these restrictions from?????

edit: ninjad a third time tonight

rexscarlet wrote:
Boycott needs to be NOW! (or this will continue to happen)
.
$75 Main/Big Rule Book obsolete in less than two years (6e 23rd of June, 2012)
Wow, just wow.
.
No "new" FaQs for months, no older FaQs on the "new" website. Now the excuse will be that GW was gearing up for the change.
No rules Support, ever.
Massive flooding of multiple Rule Books with huge issues attached to each.
Constantly making "current" purchased publications obsolete with a release of another purchased publication.
No Battle Bunkers, No tables in GW stores.(where we used to go to see what "fair" House Rules were being used by a large majority, rather than relying on non GW Tournaments).
GW Stock in the toilet.
.
All of which We will have to Pay For.
.
Boycott Now

You appear to be new to this... WELCOME TO WARGAMING!!!

This hasn't been a slow decline for some.

For some of us, we have been gaming for 20+ years and the decline of GW, for some, has been happening for ten years or more.

clively wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Kosake wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
So, we have 10 pages of doomsaying, speculation, premature ragequits and panic based on the fact that the core book is currently unavailable..? Good thing thing that 40k radio actually said that a new edition will be coming shortly, otherwise this would seem a bit silly.

It's a news and rumor thread in a news and rumor forum discussing some news and rumors. Yet, you show up to throw derision. That seems a pointless exercise.

Don't get me wrong, I hope for some decent rules as much as the next guy, I'll just be laughing my ass off when they put the regular 6th ed BRB back in, because the new printed stock did finally arrive.

Then why did they instruct stores to pull existing stock off of the shelves?

To troll the internet?

That would be the only other reason. Just for spite.

It's just a big "marketing" move that requires absolutely no cash on the part of GW to perform. Have the stores put a bunch of somewhat unrelated boxes on a table. Make a nebulous "last chance" statement and Presto: everyone on the internet talks about it, articles are written, etc. All of the publicity encourages people to go into the stores while so of them actually buy stuff.

If everything sells then the "last chance" statement works out. If it doesn't, then you just put it back on the shelf while quietly saying that new stock came in after all... Brilliant if you ask me.

 Idolator wrote:

Just as an aside. There are no markings on the BRB's denoting which edition they are. If a new book comes out, if there are any changes at all it will be the seventh edition printed.

I mean any changes, punctuation, pictures, foreward, anything.

You can call it what ever you want. six and a half, 6.5, Edition 6-2.0. But it would be the Seventh Edition in print.

I think you're conflating "edition" with "printing". If the exact same book comes out it will be 6th edition, second printing or whatever. See http://www.booklibris.com/BLFirstEditionID.htm

Two things.

First: While that may not be the worst marketing ploy ever (new coke) it would be the worst marketing ploy since "new coke". It doesn't increase demand. They've already met the needs of those that play with the rule book. Everyone that needs one already has one. That only prevents new customers from buying their product for a month, who then have a month to spend that money elsewhere and may lose interest. Plus, it's the main rule book, not a limited release, literally everyone would know that there would only be a "last chance" if the company was going out of business.

That ploy defies reason, logic and marketing 101.

Second: Did you notice that in the quote from me that you gave. Actually says that "If a new book comes out, if there are any changes at all it will be the seventh edition printed." Right before you go into explaining that if no changes are made then it's not a different edition. On that note however, there is no way of knowing what printing any of them are as they don't list those numbers either. So unless they label it as 6.5 and they make changes, it will be the 7th edition.

Edit: If you wanted to be super picky, the small trade paperback versions are different editions.

@L0rdF1end:

If you look across the Internet there is a LOT of moaning and negativity. Not just at GW, but aimed at pretty much every single company on the planet.

You can easily find things like people "rage quitting" pretty much anything. Just read this linked post. The feelings in that post could easily be transcribed over here with a few edits to substitute in Ward, xyz Codex, tournament players or whatever.

I don't really think that the amount of negativity has much to do with whether a company has it's own forums/public face or not. Normally rational and well adjusted adults argue, post extremely negative things and generally act like spoiled children all over the 'net. Last year my sister in law "rage quit" netflix because they didn't have some obscure movie from the 60s online. A week later she "rage quit" some shampoo company because an ingredient changed in her favorite one. It's kinda funny when you think about it.

Ultimately the hard part is sorting through real problems vs someone just being cranky. That takes a lot of patience and time which some companies, like GW, don't want to bother with.

Puscifer wrote:

You appear to be new to this... WELCOME TO WARGAMING!!!

This hasn't been a slow decline for some.

For some of us, we have been gaming for 20+ years and the decline of GW, for some, has been happening for ten years or more.