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 Zweischneid wrote:
That nobody has been able to prove, beyond personal bias, that Infinity-fans (as a whole) are happier than 40K-fans (as a whole).

Which is completely irrelevant to this thread. If you really want to discuss the comparative happiness of players from different games, feel free to start a thread about it in Discussions.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
GW is not shrinking rapidly. that sound like the dramatisation from a fox news broadcast...

and id be rather happy with a business that makes a couple of mil a week, sure it could and probably SHOULD be better.
now i know this isnt a fGW financials thread, but there is someting i do see everytime that id love an answer to and never will... how much money/units sold etc is infinity and PP etc doing? GW HAS to release those numbers but they are private business and dont need to, they could be cruising along just like GW, but the GW hate means they have to be doing soooo much better, right, riight?

CB has directly reported double digit growth in the past years, there are several threads about this. Also you have reports from retailers and distributers that state that sales from PP are also growing. Both of these also seem to confirm the anecdotal evidence that many players have of GW players numbers diminishing and leaving 40k and WHFB for other systems.

Also, GW last financial report had a 10% drop in sales volume and a close to 30% drop in profits. I don't know about you, but that seems pretty significant to me.

But ultimately, as players, the finances of each company should be pretty pointless to our enjoyment of the games. Why should I care that GW's sales are down? I don't care. What I do care is that WHFB / 40k tournaments that were sold out in previous editions are now almost always cancelled because the stores can't get 4 people to attend them... But you still get people saying that the current editions are the best ever for both games!

I have heard more indications that indeed:
1.) New edition is coming end of the month
2.) 6th edition rulebook and starter box are OOP
3.) New starter will be BA vs. Orks.
4.) Escalation and stronghold are included in the new rulebook.

All of which confirm my worst fears

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
GW is not shrinking rapidly. that sound like the dramatisation from a fox news broadcast...

and id be rather happy with a business that makes a couple of mil a week, sure it could and probably SHOULD be better.
now i know this isnt a fGW financials thread, but there is someting i do see everytime that id love an answer to and never will... how much money/units sold etc is infinity and PP etc doing? GW HAS to release those numbers but they are private business and dont need to, they could be cruising along just like GW, but the GW hate means they have to be doing soooo much better, right, riight?

Games Workshop is a PLC which means that legally they do have to release numbers. PP and CB are not.

GW might well be making a few £m per week, but their costs are also a few £m per week. Their profit in the last 6 months of 2012 was £0.4m per week, and in 2013 this has dropped to £0.3m per week.

People are of course forgetting the difference between "losing money" and "not making as much money", but the drop in profits is stark and supports the point that they are shrinking rapidly.

Did anyone see the rumor that the new starter will be IG v. Eldar? It almost makes sense. IG are the last army of 6th and the teaser poster has a big ol' commissar on it.

 Kosake wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Maybe they think that if they don't tell anyone that new stuff is coming until the last minute they'll pleasantly surprise people and score impulse buys? I mean, it's not like you'd get more sales by drumming up hype and allowing customers to get the funds together to buy your expensive gak.

Impulse buys? How big's the proportion of the population that has such low impulse controll and such high numbers on their bank accounts and is into wargaming?

*Raises hand*
Sadly I have that low control when it comes to my money. I'm currently sitting on a nice, full time, income and waaaaay too quick to let go of my spare cash. It would seem I am the perfect customer for GW.
Ironically they are not putting out anything I actually want to spend my money on....

ausYenLoWang wrote:GW is not shrinking rapidly. that sound like the dramatisation from a fox news broadcast...

What do you call no longer printing nearly as much product in multiple languages? Or closing HQs in outside markets as important as North America? Or moving over 1,000 SKUs to direct only?

 Kroothawk wrote:
I have heard more indications that indeed:
1.) New edition is coming end of the month
2.) 6th edition rulebook and starter box are OOP
3.) New starter will be BA vs. Orks.
4.) Escalation and stronghold are included in the new rulebook.

All of which confirm my worst fears

Do you know if that means they are no longer optional (ask opponent first)? Or are they (hopefully) just slapped on in an appendix/advanced section?

 Kroothawk wrote:
I have heard more indications that indeed:
1.) New edition is coming end of the month
2.) 6th edition rulebook and starter box are OOP
3.) New starter will be BA vs. Orks.
4.) Escalation and stronghold are included in the new rulebook.

All of which confirm my worst fears

Number 4 is a slap in the face to anyone who purchased either of those books that were launched less than a year ago, IF the new edition is a change big enough to render existing books useless.

Even GW must realise this, which to me suggests the differences will be few, and the rules will be largely a consolidation of the jumble of releases from the last 18 months or so.

So we are getting the new book at the end of May, but what about the Codexes?

Orks
Blood Angels
Space Wolves
Dark Eldar
Grey Knights
Necrons

In that order?

NoggintheNog wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
I have heard more indications that indeed:
1.) New edition is coming end of the month
2.) 6th edition rulebook and starter box are OOP
3.) New starter will be BA vs. Orks.
4.) Escalation and stronghold are included in the new rulebook.

All of which confirm my worst fears

Number 4 is a slap in the face to anyone who purchased either of those books that were launched less than a year ago, IF the new edition is a change big enough to render existing books useless.

Even GW must realise this, which to me suggests the differences will be few, and the rules will be largely a consolidation of the jumble of releases from the last 18 months or so.

I doubt it'll change them at all. It likely doesn't even include all of the supplements, so you may need to buy them separately anyway.

What it does is change the default game to include this stuff. So gaming goes from "want to play standard 40k?" to "want to play 40k but without all those things that used to be optional?"

Casual player here. A taudar player managed to infiltrate my flgs and began wrecking people's armies. Worse still mono nurgle and heldrake spam is running rampant and making games boring to play.

Orks I think will be next if there is a box to go with the new rules, then probably a marine one, then cron update with a few plastic characters instead of FC.

But that's getting off topic.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Casual player here. A taudar player managed to infiltrate my flgs and began wrecking people's armies. Worse still mono nurgle and heldrake spam is running rampant and making games boring to play.

Mono Nurgle and Heldrake Spam?

Is that STILL a thing?

We haven't seen that army since last summer in my Meta when every player found a way to beat it.

I am so glad I decided to hold off on buying Escalation and Stronghold if the rumors are true that they are going to be incorporated into the new edition.

Not gonna lie I impulse buy a lot of things. It is my disposable income budget as in spending it doesnt matter in the long run as long as I get my value out of it.

Just bought a Wyvern last night with no regrets. Same with some transparent airbrush paints.

For major life decisions? Nope smart about that stuff.

But for my fun stuff? Heck yea.

Anyway I am guessing that stronghold wont be all the fortifications but rather the updating of the building rules from stronghold. Same with escalation in that all the rules will be in but none of the units so the people who bought the books will still get stuff separate. So people will have access to the general rules. Even if LOW are in the main book TO's will still ban them, and you can request to not play them. Same as now.

NoggintheNog wrote:


Number 4 is a slap in the face to anyone who purchased either of those books that were launched less than a year ago, IF the new edition is a change big enough to render existing books useless.

Even GW must realise this, which to me suggests the differences will be few, and the rules will be largely a consolidation of the jumble of releases from the last 18 months or so.

Ye, I agree. I am pretty sure it is just going to be a consolidation of the current rules, Escalation, Stronghold assault (And possibly death from the skies). When 5th and 6th were released we had lots of events plans, supposed leaked rules and stuff like that. This time we have nothing, which makes me think that there is not a huge change. At most some tidying up of things.

Herzlos wrote:

Do you know if that means they are no longer optional (ask opponent first)? Or are they (hopefully) just slapped on in an appendix/advanced section?

They never were optional any more than any of the Codexes. No one can make you play against, for example Tau, but that doesn't mean it is optional.

On a side note both versions of the rules, the full rule book and the mini one, have now gone to "No Longer Available" int he UK. Yesterday they were just marked as out of stock.

However the DV box set is still up.

Got a bit of info on this passed my way:

The new rulebook is not a 7th edition of the game, but a re-issue of 6th edition which has the FAQs incorporated in it, and some minor tweaks across the board. Some of you may remember when they did something similar during 3rd edition, where they totally overhauled the assault phase, but the edition itself was left alone from that point. Same idea here-- they're folding in the changes in Stronghold Assault into the main rulebook, and quantifying superheavy units and D weapons in the main rules. But that's about it.

My question amongst all this is...

I just bought the digital ipad edition of the rules (which is apparently v2 now) a fortnight ago. IF (and it's certainly an 'if') this is just a rules consolidation so to speak, will the digital rules edition AUTOMATICALLY update, or will it have to be another purchase again?

Surely if they don't auto-update then it completely goes against what GW was saying about auto-updating faq's/rules etc??

Either way, annoying to say the least. :/

fwiw... I doubt it's the emergence of 7th. Not with shiny new dexes and a mere 2yr gap between editions...

If it's just a rehash of old rules, you should be OK. You'll have them already merged into your iBook.
But for any new rules, expect to buy it again.

If it's just a rehash of old rules, you should be OK. You'll have them already merged into your iBook.
But for any new rules, expect to buy it again.

Fingers crossed it's the former then, and not the latter.

Though like someone mentioned above, if it includes escalation and stronghold, then that's quite a bit of extra content for free, as opposed to rehashed rules (unless it was the rules and not the stats - which basically the ibook version is).

I'd be happy with this if so (not so much if i'd bought the hardcover which the majority have done).

 Harriticus wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
GW talks about the upcoming new edition of their biggest and most profitable product line, Warhammer 40,000:

*crickets chirping*
*tumbleweed rolls buy*


Literally almost any other company on Earth talks about their upcoming new release for their most profitable product line:

"It's amazing! You won't believe how great it is! Check out all this cool new stuff you'll be able to do! Stay tuned for even more previews. This is going to be great!!!"

GW has two very, very bizarre aspects to it that I've yet to encounter in any other company in the world:

A.) Advertisement/publicity is bad

B.) The internet is an unimportant passing fad and social media is a hindrance. This is especially interesting because they're getting more dedicated to pursue this policy as the years roll by, not less.

Now Point A is interesting because even going back to ancient Rome people understood the value of advertisements and publicity (there were advertisements for eating establishments written on the walls of Pompeii), yet GW seems to refute this. However Point B is literally the exact opposite of what every single company in the world has concluded in the last 15 years.

I mean I get the greed, the lawsuits, the war on the fans, the incompetence, the price hikes, etc.., I don't agree with it but I can wrap my head around why they do it. But these two things right here, I can't for the love of me understand why they've decided to make this core parts of their strategy.

The personification of their "wtf are they thinking" thing with regards to their desire to avoid publicity/social media is they don't list their youtube channel. This above all else is most perplexing to me. You don't want a random youtuber to see your products...really? Though I suspect in a few years, they'll do away with even their pitiful inactive youtube channel.

Now, people know my stance on GW generally. But I will throw in a counterpoint to what you have here. I work in a business in which we eschew traditional advertising. My company doesn't do traditional advertising because we don't get the type of customers we want that way. Most of our business comes from repeat customers and referrals. Those contacts produce good work. Now, we actually do a crap-ton of promotional work designed to maintain relationships with existing clients and remind people that we exist. Much of that goes through social media and the internet though: Blog, newsletter, LinkedIn, emails, etc.

I don't think GW has that sort of business, but they might have convinced themselves that they do. The problem we have is that we are a high end firm in a market that clients usually don't understand very well. Consequently, people who contact us without a referral are often a waste of time. One of the most annoying things to hear on the phone is, "Wait, did you say $14,000 or $40,000?" That means we'll never work with that client because if they think it is possible to do a project for $14,000, they aren't looking for the services we provide.

It seems to me that GW feels that its business comes mostly through through repeat customers and word of mouth. In fact, I believe Alan Merrett testified to that in the Chapterhouse case. Only this is really weird because these days word of mouth travels most effectively through the internet and social media.

 snowman40k wrote:

If it's just a rehash of old rules, you should be OK. You'll have them already merged into your iBook.
But for any new rules, expect to buy it again.

Fingers crossed it's the former then, and not the latter.

Though like someone mentioned above, if it includes escalation and stronghold, then that's quite a bit of extra content for free, as opposed to rehashed rules (unless it was the rules and not the stats - which basically the ibook version is).

I'd be happy with this if so (not so much if i'd bought the hardcover which the majority have done).

You're assuming that this new book will cost the same as the old one. Since the new Codexes are 50% more expensive than the old ones, I'm not holding my breath.

 snowman40k wrote:

If it's just a rehash of old rules, you should be OK. You'll have them already merged into your iBook.
But for any new rules, expect to buy it again.

Fingers crossed it's the former then, and not the latter.

Though like someone mentioned above, if it includes escalation and stronghold, then that's quite a bit of extra content for free, as opposed to rehashed rules (unless it was the rules and not the stats - which basically the ibook version is).

I'd be happy with this if so (not so much if i'd bought the hardcover which the majority have done).

Stronghold assault and Esculation are still for sale thow. If this is true I think the rule changes thows two books brought in would be brought into the main book, but you still need said books for the unit entries.

I know in my area Stronghold assault has been accepted as a update to the game, the gameing community has rejected Esculation as anything but a suplement like planet strike that you and a opponent agree to before playing. (Even the local GW stores gave up trying to sell it as anything other then that.) Even most casual players just don't want to play agiest super heavies and D Weapons.

By doing this, GW is probly trying to legitimize Esculation to it's gameing audience who has mostly rejected it. I know well Stronghold assault flew off the shelf, Esculation gathered dust.

Personally i would almost perfer just a new edition. 6th ed has felt like a mess to me these last two years.

Edit:
You know. If this dose turn out to be a editon change, it's kinda abit of ackword timeing.... They just shipped HH book 3 a few days ago, so most people will be getting thows books when this new edition gose up for pre-order. XD

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well. Had a look at the Infinity news thread. Not even 30 posts in over 3 days, after the posting of the Infinity 3rd Ed. trailer.

And most of that just general, not-even-Infinity-related GenCon brabble. Not a single person there even bothered speculating/wishlisting/complaining how Rule X or Rule Y may or may not change. I don't think anyone even made a new thread on it yet in the Infinity sub-forum (compared to a 5-page thread in the 40K forum on the new edition, just a day old, maybe two).

Not even the crickets bother chirping for Infinity 3rd.

People generally seem happy with the Infinity rules. Each supplement apparently makes the game better so people seem to trust that they don't need to worry about how rule X or Y may or may not change. They're happy they're getting new stuff and they focus on the upcoming minis that they also like. In your book that is a bad thing? Also, the company has 50% or more annual growth in sales for several years compared with GW's recent shrinkage and years long plateua prior to that when adjusted for price increases. Don't worry, eventually the crickets will turn into a swarm of locust. I don't play the game nor have I bought anything but the attitude there is a hell of a lot more optimistic than most games and it is backed up by products and numbers.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Got a bit of info on this passed my way:

The new rulebook is not a 7th edition of the game, but a re-issue of 6th edition which has the FAQs incorporated in it, and some minor tweaks across the board. Some of you may remember when they did something similar during 3rd edition, where they totally overhauled the assault phase, but the edition itself was left alone from that point. Same idea here-- they're folding in the changes in Stronghold Assault into the main rulebook, and quantifying superheavy units and D weapons in the main rules. But that's about it.

With all due respect, that's just a flat out lie. The guy is misremembering.

They never did such a thing with 3rd ed. 3rd got to a point where so many rules were changed in so many places I remember people joking the only relevant parts of the rulebook remaining were the WS/BS tables. Nothing was ever rolled together in one book. The trail assault rules, which this quote is referring to were only ever compiled in Chapter Approved annuals after appearing in WD. Never in a reissue of the basic rules.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well. Had a look at the Infinity news thread. Not even 30 posts in over 3 days, after the posting of the Infinity 3rd Ed. trailer.

And most of that just general, not-even-Infinity-related GenCon brabble. Not a single person there even bothered speculating/wishlisting/complaining how Rule X or Rule Y may or may not change. I don't think anyone even made a new thread on it yet in the Infinity sub-forum (compared to a 5-page thread in the 40K forum on the new edition, just a day old, maybe two).

Not even the crickets bother chirping for Infinity 3rd.

What can I say?. I'm excited about Infinity's 3rd edition... And terrified of 40k's 7th. Letting the finished product do the talking is a viable strategy when you count with a satisfied customer base that trusts you to provide them with a flawless product. In that case, a degree of secrecy might increase the buzz and hype around your release. This tactic worked well with early 2000s' GW, but due to their recent PR blunders, it's not working anymore. Uncertainty, fears and rumors stir the waters before each release. Instead of generating hype, they are getting rejection.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of GW's impregnable veil of secrecy.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Got a bit of info on this passed my way:

The new rulebook is not a 7th edition of the game, but a re-issue of 6th edition which has the FAQs incorporated in it, and some minor tweaks across the board. Some of you may remember when they did something similar during 3rd edition, where they totally overhauled the assault phase, but the edition itself was left alone from that point. Same idea here-- they're folding in the changes in Stronghold Assault into the main rulebook, and quantifying superheavy units and D weapons in the main rules. But that's about it.

With all due respect, that's just a flat out lie.

They never did such a thing with 3rd ed. 3rd got to a point where so many rules were changed in so many places I remember people joking the only relevant parts of the rulebook remaining were the WS/BS tables. Nothing was ever rolled together in one book. The trail assault rules, which this quote is referring to were only ever compiled in Chapter Approved annuals. Never in a reissue of the basic rules.

And in all due respect (which is almost never used to convey actual respect in my experience), I believe the statement is referencing the actual amount of substance of the update during 3rd not the way it was done. Small changes, only this time put into the core book itself.

 snowman40k wrote:

If it's just a rehash of old rules, you should be OK. You'll have them already merged into your iBook.
But for any new rules, expect to buy it again.

Fingers crossed it's the former then, and not the latter.

Though like someone mentioned above, if it includes escalation and stronghold, then that's quite a bit of extra content for free, as opposed to rehashed rules (unless it was the rules and not the stats - which basically the ibook version is).

I'd be happy with this if so (not so much if i'd bought the hardcover which the majority have done).

IIRC when the stormtalon was released, the 5th ed. digital SM codex was updated to include it. So there is some precedent for getting real upgrades for free. That said, the 6th ed SM codex was a separate purchase.

I’m not sure what the time cutoff is for “returns” of digital products, but if you don’t get a free upgrade to the new rules, it might be worth looking into.

It's called 7th edition, over 500 pages, escalation is in it, it's $99.99 usd, and new templates are also coming out along side it.

 krazynadechukr wrote:
It's called 7th edition, over 500 pages, escalation is in it, it's $99.99 usd, and new templates are also coming out along side it.

3.5, 5.5 and 10.5 inch templates?