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krazynadechukr wrote: Just wanted to throw in something my Memphis GW source clued me in on.
Apparently (as we all know) there is a "new" rulebook coming out, and it is a corrected/updated version of 6th (not being referred to as either 6.5 or 7th, but unofficially as "Revised 6th" at hq in Memphis), with escalation and strong added in the book, amongst other books/supps, d weapons, and some other stuff. 673 pages, $99.99. New cover. There will be new templates and starter box, plus other items. For GW, they want this to be the same big fanfare of a new (40k reawakening) release, new rules, for newcomers, but keep current players (happy?).
For those who have 6th, and the other books, there's going to be a faq pdf so you can use current books still, apparently. This will be good for another 3 to 4 years.
So I'm being told... (same guy who told me of website change, scions, and astra name/codex...).
tetrisphreak wrote: I'm ready to play a new edition of 40k, I will actually be let down if this rulebook is 90% identical to the current one. Hopefully as the weeks lead up to pre release the white dwarfs will explain roughly what's changing in the game.
Wishful thinking on my part, but there you have it.
Even 10% difference would be gigantic. Consider a single rule change, 99.99% the same book:
The FOC is replaced with percentages. Instead of 0-3 it becomes <= 25%.
That would have a gigantic effect on the actual game. I wouldn't ever have to worry about Ovesa-star, seer-star, beast-star, or Deamon Flying Circus at 1850. 50% of net lists are now illegal, and suddenly 40k is scalable again (for the first time?) with 1250 point games working as well as 2000 point games.
A few small tweaks (consolidation, overwatch, allies, FOC, Reserves, and Psychic powers) could leave the majority of the rules the same, and still have dramatic effect on actual game-play.
So wait all they're doing is consolidating around 3 books into one? No FAQs, no tweaks a la 3.5? Just "here's the same gak as before in a bigger book with a higher price tag that you likely don't need to buy if you already have the other books"?
WayneTheGame wrote: So wait all they're doing is consolidating around 3 books into one? No FAQs, no tweaks a la 3.5? Just "here's the same gak as before in a bigger book with a higher price tag that you likely don't need to buy if you already have the other books"?
Polishing
a
turd.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
WayneTheGame wrote: So wait all they're doing is consolidating around 3 books into one? No FAQs, no tweaks a la 3.5? Just "here's the same gak as before in a bigger book with a higher price tag that you likely don't need to buy if you already have the other books"?
WayneTheGame wrote: So wait all they're doing is consolidating around 3 books into one? No FAQs, no tweaks a la 3.5? Just "here's the same gak as before in a bigger book with a higher price tag that you likely don't need to buy if you already have the other books"?
CASH GRAB
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
WayneTheGame wrote: So wait all they're doing is consolidating around 3 books into one? No FAQs, no tweaks a la 3.5? Just "here's the same gak as before in a bigger book with a higher price tag that you likely don't need to buy if you already have the other books"?
WayneTheGame wrote: So wait all they're doing is consolidating around 3 books into one? No FAQs, no tweaks a la 3.5? Just "here's the same gak as before in a bigger book with a higher price tag that you likely don't need to buy if you already have the other books"?
I'm guessing that's GW's idea on this release.
No. That's Krazynadechukr's idea for this release. Someone with a 0% accuracy in the past.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
WayneTheGame wrote: So wait all they're doing is consolidating around 3 books into one? No FAQs, no tweaks a la 3.5? Just "here's the same gak as before in a bigger book with a higher price tag that you likely don't need to buy if you already have the other books"?
No, no. They corrected the grammatical errors and typos.
WayneTheGame wrote: So wait all they're doing is consolidating around 3 books into one? No FAQs, no tweaks a la 3.5? Just "here's the same gak as before in a bigger book with a higher price tag that you likely don't need to buy if you already have the other books"?
CASH GRAB
Except the part I just put in bold. If it is just a roll-up then you don't need to buy anything negating the "cash grab".
Lords of Wargaming wrote:7e 40K Rulebook comes in a slipcase with 3 books – rules, miniatures showcase, background
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
1.) They want to sell this book to every 40k gamer, making it a must have, not just a free FAQ or digital update. So it must be something different from the previous 75$ book they sold, something new everyone wants. This is easiest if they call it a new edition.
2.) 2 years is a really short time to develop something new, esp. given the flood of new Codices and armybooks that have been done at the same time. I seriously doubt GW has a new set of rules up their sleeves (well, except pancake edition, but that will never happen). Limited edition Codices and Codex MT, Codex AS, Codex Inquisition, etc have shown that current GW has no problem with selling blown up nothingness for a luxury price. GW has also shown that the current team has problems with inventing new stuff that doesn't break game balance. All this makes a slightly polished copy-paste job most likely, because it is easy to do and it is what GW has done many times lately. But then again it is difficult to call it a new edition.
Now let's try to see this from the perspective of a GW manager who has no interest iin and no idea of the game.
1.) For some unknown reason, GW has absolutely no interest to expand the customer base. No advertising, no social media, no marketing, sales staff reduced so no more introductory games, gaming instore reduced, advertising mag (WD) no more available in newspaper stores. So every growth in profit has to be made from the existing shrinking customer base.
2.) Best profit can be made by plastic kits in larger numbers, esp. when one kit consists of 3-4 sprues and sells for 100+ $ . Filling 3-4 sprues is less work and cheaper if it is for just one large model instead of 20-30 small ones. Sadly, large models sell less if labelled Apocalypse, because then everyone assumes they are not balanced for normal games (and they are right). Solution: Make rules that classify those big models as for standard games. It worked like a charm for Dreadknights (step 1: 54$), Riptides (step 2: 85$, sold out for a short time), Wraithknights (step 3: 115 $) and Imperial Knights (step 4: 140$). BTW same with terrain that has standard rules compared to terrain that hasn't: Imagine Aegis sales without having it in the rulebook. Customers still reluctant to buy Stompas, Tesseract Vaults and Skulldozers, even when Escalation was officially included into standard games. But nobody bought the book voluntarily. Now is the time to force everyone to buy the Escalation rules for the rest of the high profit big kits and the Stronghold rules for the 50+ $ terrain models, because they are an unwanted addition to the general rules. From a business perspective, this has worked in the past, people bought crazy stuff. So why shouldn't it work again?
So for a GW manager, copy-pasting Escalation and Stronghold rules into the main rulebook might seem like the perfect solution to provide something advertised as a must have while produced with minimal effort, supporting a continued flood of cheaply produced 100+ $ kits.
Now let's try to see it from a gamer perspective:
1.) Big rulebook is less than 2 years old and costs 75$. Not everyone bought it on release, some even bought the small limited edition less than a year old. Some bought Escalation, some Stronghold (already a copy-paste job of planetfall), many didn't because they didn't want to. All of them will feel betrayed, if the new book is advertised as a must. As it shatters the remaining faith that a 50-75$ book will last a sufficient time.
2.) A game is only a game if the outcome is not predestinied from the start. If there is some kind of suspense who will win. Some call it game balance, that is important not only for the tournament scene, but casual gaming as well. 90-100% of all armies consist of small to medium sized models, costing hundreds or thousands of dollars. Once in a while, it is okay to include the big Godzillas in the game just for fun, but then the rest of the army usually doesn't count. Forcing those Godzillas down your throat in standard games, invalidated most existing armies, giving them the by-stander roles. Again, long time gamers will feel betrayed. They might have tried with dreadknights, even with Riptides, Wraithknights or Imperial Knights, but eventually found out that basically the number of Godzillas decides the games. No fun. Certainly not the second or third time you experience this. People were always aware that Apocalypse units are no fun in standard games, more and more people realize that Riptides, Wraithknights and Imperial Knights are just Apocalypse units in disguise. So gamers will never accept full access to Apocalypse units in standard games.
We are currently at this exact limit, where GW managers try to prepare the market for a second wave of Apocalypse kits and bundles, and a gaming scene that wont follow. Gamers might still buy some plastic titans just for modelling purposes, but not in big numbers as necessary for justifying such a plastic kit. I doubt that fixing D weapons will solve this.
That is why I think, that the new edition will fail, because GW managers unfamiliar with the game are not aware of the limits that gamers are unwilling to cross.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 21:47:30
if DV is indeed going away and a new book is coming out, even if it is a rehash, I can't imagine a scenario without a "starter box".
Good luck getting anyone in the game with "well first you buy the rulebook for $60+ USD, then you buy an army deal for $170-250 USD and then you might need to buy an HQ or a troops choice or something to make your army legal."
Good luck negotiating that one with mom and dad little Timmy.
I'm still not convinced that this will just be the FAQ rolled in with the Escalation/Stronghold rules. I think there will be a large number of minor rules tweaks along with it (and hopefully more than a few clarifications). I still feel this is going to be a lot like the 3rd edition jump to 4th edition, same basic rule set, but a few tweaks to certain mechanics and some clarifications. I don't believe GW will refer to it as 6.5 even if the bulk of the rules remain the same.
I may be reaching, but I can't be the only one that noticed all of the recent AA options in the more recent codex releases have either lost or were never given Interceptor. One of the older rumors floating around was that Interceptor was either going to be removed completely or significantly re-written to remove the "shoot during your opponents' movement phase" piece. If that turns out to be true (again, reaching here), I have a hard time believing that will be the only special rule modified with the new edition.
1.) They want to sell this book to every 40k gamer, making it a must have, not just a free FAQ or digital update. So it must be something different from the previous 75$ book they sold, something new everyone wants. This is easiest if they call it a new edition.
2.) 2 years is a really short time to develop something new, esp. given the flood of new Codices and armybooks that have been done at the same time. I seriously doubt GW has a new set of rules up their sleeves (well, except pancake edition, but that will never happen). Limited edition Codices and Codex MT, Codex AS, Codex Inquisition, etc have shown that current GW has no problem with selling blown up nothingness for a luxury price. GW has also shown that the current team has problems with inventing new stuff that doesn't break game balance. All this makes a slightly polished copy-paste job most likely, because it is easy to do and it is what GW has done many times lately. But then again it is difficult to call it a new edition.
Now let's try to see this from the perspective of a GW manager who has no interest iin and no idea of the game.
1.) For some unknown reason, GW has absolutely no interest to expand the customer base. No advertising, no social media, no marketing, sales staff reduced so no more introductory games, gaming instore reduced, advertising mag (WD) no more available in newspaper stores. So every growth in profit has to be made from the existing shrinking customer base.
2.) Best profit can be made by plastic kits in larger numbers, esp. when one kit consists of 3-4 sprues and sells for 100+ $ . Filling 3-4 sprues is less work and cheaper if it is for just one large model instead of 20-30 small ones. Sadly, large models sell less if labelled Apocalypse, because then everyone assumes they are not balanced for normal games (and they are right). Solution: Make rules that classify those big models as for standard games. It worked like a charm for Dreadknights (step 1: 54$), Riptides (step 2: 85$, sold out for a short time), Wraithknights (step 3: 115 $) and Imperial Knights (step 4: 140$). BTW same with terrain that has standard rules compared to terrain that hasn't: Imagine Aegis sales without having it in the rulebook. Customers still reluctant to buy Stompas, Tesseract Vaults and Skulldozers, even when Escalation was officially included into standard games. But nobody bought the book voluntarily. Now is the time to force everyone to buy the Escalation rules for the rest of the high profit big kits and the Stronghold rules for the 50+ $ terrain models, because they are an unwanted addition to the general rules. From a business perspective, this has worked in the past, people bought crazy stuff. So why shouldn't it work again?
So for a GW manager, copy-pasting Escalation and Stronghold rules into the main rulebook might seem like the perfect solution to provide something advertised as a must have while produced with minimal effort, supporting a continued flood of cheaply produced 100+ $ kits.
Now let's try to see it from a gamer perspective:
1.) Big rulebook is less than 2 years old and costs 75$. Not everyone bought it on release, some even bought the small limited edition less than a year old. Some bought Escalation, some Stronghold (already a copy-paste job of planetfall), many didn't because they didn't want to. All of them will feel betrayed, if the new book is advertised as a must. As it shatters the remaining faith that a 50-75$ book will last a sufficient time.
2.) A game is only a game if the outcome is not predestinied from the start. If there is some kind of suspense who will win. Some call it game balance, that is important not only for the tournament scene, but casual gaming as well. 90-100% of all armies consist of small to medium sized models, costing hundreds or thousands of dollars. Once in a while, it is okay to include the big Godzillas in the game just for fun, but then the rest of the army usually doesn't count. Forcing those Godzillas down your throat in standard games, invalidated most existing armies, giving them the by-stander roles. Again, long time gamers will feel betrayed. They might have tried with dreadknights, even with Riptides, Wraithknights or Imperial Knights, but eventually found out that basically the number of Godzillas decides the games. No fun. Certainly not the second or third time you experience this. People were always aware that Apocalypse units are no fun in standard games, more and more people realize that Riptides, Wraithknights and Imperial Knights are just Apocalypse units in disguise. So gamers will never accept full access to Apocalypse units in standard games.
We are currently at this exact limit, where GW managers try to prepare the market for a second wave of Apocalypse kits and bundles, and a gaming scene that wont follow. Gamers might still buy some plastic titans just for modelling purposes, but not in big numbers as necessary for justifying such a plastic kit. I doubt that fixing D weapons will solve this.
That is why I think, that the new edition will fail, because GW managers unfamiliar with the game are not aware of the limits that gamers are unwilling to cross.
I hope you are wrong and that GW isn't taking this perspective of the game its players, but your argument is convincing--especially given the last 24 months of releases.
I honestly don't think that two years is too short of a time, for a company to be capable of making substantive changes to a set of rules that is only 113 pages long and contains large amounts of unneeded information, graphics and pictures. None of the rule sets that I've ever seen are truly new, they're all just tweeks to already established rules or a furtherance of other rules.
Even if they were to have started from the ground up and changed all the mechanics and game play, two years is a long time. Two people can make two more, entirely new people in that time. They've got decades of rule writing experience and a huge database to fall back on. Heck, in a single week, any one of us on this forum could make edits and additions to the rules as they are and the outcome would look exceedingly different than what we currently have.
My sister in law works in the printing department and has seen parts of the new rule book. She has limited gameplay experience but does know the rules from watching countless games. One thing she did notice is that "Prescience" is no longer the Primaris Power in Divination. It has move to number five and now cost two warp charges to cast.
Okay so all I'm getting is we really don't know. In the past month or two I've heard that it's:
1) 7th edition 2) 6.5 edition but not 7th 3) 6th edition with Escalation+Stronghold Assault included, and nothing else not even FAQs 4) New BA vs. Orks box 4a) Above new box has stripped down incomplete rulebook forcing buying the $99 rulebook to actually play 5) New 10mm Epic (ha!) is BA vs. Orks 6) Astra Militarum vs. Eldar box
usually from the same sources (natfka, BOLS) with nothing to back it up (at last natfka has anonymous sources, BOLS seems to just steal the news from there and repost it as their own).
Now if it's going to have WHFB-style percentages, then it's at the least "6.5" and at most "7th", because that's a major change. Same if they "fix" assault. But if it's just Escalation and Stronghold Assault in the main book, then it's just a repackaged 6.0
So really nobody knows, and there's a ton of likely false rumors floating around.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/30 22:15:40
