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I guess then that the problem isn't the people saying "Now I can play my Chaos Necron Tyranids-infested Riptide army! WOO!", and more the people who would never allow any variation who suddenly will because the rulebook says so.

I guess that's the same menality - the same binary switch - that sees people go from "Griffons are great!" to "Griffons are Forge World! No go!".

I just want to see what could balance out an army of nothing but Riptides and Broadsides? What are these Battle Forged bonuses going to be? Free S: D Orbital Bombardments? I care about how stupidly they're going to handle the way that most of us will intend to play.

 azreal13 wrote:
Yeah, not what you think, the "good" armies get an anti-demon lore, so they'll be able to banish, rather than conjure, by the sounds of it.

What have you seen that 'sounds' like that?

Because all that has been shown so far is the White Dwarf excerpt, which simply says that everyone except Tyranids has access to Daemonology, which is broken into two different types.

There has been nothing said so far that suggests that some armies will only have access to one 'type' of Daemonology spell.

I think the price of the book is going to be the deal breaker more than any of the rules. While many have slogged through various editions of changes they've love or hated, no one has yet slogged through a less than 24 month edition change at, rumored, $100 for the revision.

More so during a time of a peak competition in the wargaming space with almost every flavor being catered towards save the 28mm Sci-Fi Company Level game. And I give Warlord Games a nod if they would consider making their own run at it given the rampant success of Bolt Action and being the one company looking like it's inline to "challenge the throne."

Time will tell, but $100 rulebook would have me incredibly leery. I could buy 6 gamers a copy of the Malifaux rules, tell them they could have a "full" army for $100 and have a new club started.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I just want to see what could balance out an army of nothing but Riptides and Broadsides? What are these Battle Forged bonuses going to be? Free S: D Orbital Bombardments?.

Only if you roll a 6 on the Battle Forged table. If you roll a 1, half of your army doesn't show up.

Because narrative.

 insaniak wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Yeah, not what you think, the "good" armies get an anti-demon lore, so they'll be able to banish, rather than conjure, by the sounds of it.

What have you seen that 'sounds' like that?

Because all that has been shown so far is the White Dwarf excerpt, which simply says that everyone except Tyranids has access to Daemonology, which is broken into two different types.

There has been nothing said so far that suggests that some armies will only have access to one 'type' of Daemonology spell.

Er, this thread?

 azreal13 wrote:

Er, this thread?

Yes, that was my point.

The actual information posted in this thread doesn't suggest at all that Daemonology is split between different armies. That was just what various people have suggested 'must' be the case because the alternative is stupid.

 TheKbob wrote:
I think the price of the book is going to be the deal breaker more than any of the rules. While many have slogged through various editions of changes they've love or hated, no one has yet slogged through a less than 24 month edition change at, rumored, $100 for the revision.

More so during a time of a peak competition in the wargaming space with almost every flavor being catered towards save the 28mm Sci-Fi Company Level game. And I give Warlord Games a nod if they would consider making their own run at it given the rampant success of Bolt Action and being the one company looking like it's inline to "challenge the throne."

Time will tell, but $100 rulebook would have me incredibly leery. I could buy 6 gamers a copy of the Malifaux rules, tell them they could have a "full" army for $100 and have a new club started.

Orrr logically $100 is the price of the starter set akin to Dark Vengeance (wild speculation I know.. like much of this thread) Wait and see

Expect a hardback rule book and a 'just the rules' book without models for less than $100 a piece perhaps... (And i know its soon... as it happens I got a hardback 6th within the last 12months :/ bahh but its got pwetty pictures and I do like those more than the game itself lol )

If they want a hundred bucks for the rulebook I'm definitely out. Heck even $75 would probably drive me away given how little I've managed to put the 6th ed book to use.

I'm unfamiliar with Warlord Games, but this may end up giving me the last push I need to just call it quits with my 'never really got started' marine collection, in which case those proceeds will go to the Warpath kickstarter, or something else if it's promising. Might actually do me some good and clear out my closet a bit

 StarTrotter wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I just can't understand the thinking behind why people suddenly say "Now I can field this!". You always could. Nothing was stopping you outside of your opponent.

It's like "forging a narrative", you've never needed a set of rules to tell you that you can field anything. You could always do that.

I completely agree with you.

I already have my Harlequin army leftover from 2nd ed. I just haven't been able to play them, purely down to player objection.

How is that any different from now though? There's two options and the people who didn't let you probably will usually still not let you.

My gaming buddies have now agreed to play it as it'll be legal to play.

I don't understand why so many people have a problem with the cost of the rulebook, I mean compared to the cost of an army its nothing. Hell I bought my army almost entirely second hand and it still cost me around 2k and thats only because I shopped around and went to dubious retailers, just seems odd to me.

Honestly $100 bucks every two years is nothing as far as luxury hobbies go. I have no problems spending 50 bucks a year for a game I enjoy. Would I like it to last longer? Sure, I would also like my comcast bill to be cheaper. But while it remains worth it to me to buy I will continue to do so.

 Jaceevoke wrote:
I don't understand why so many people have a problem with the cost of the rulebook...

Because we only got the last one.

HairySticks wrote:


Orrr logically $100 is the price of the starter set akin to Dark Vengeance (wild speculation I know.. like much of this thread) Wait and see

Expect a hardback rule book and a 'just the rules' book without models for less than $100 a piece perhaps... (And i know its soon... as it happens I got a hardback 6th within the last 12months :/ bahh but its got pwetty pictures and I do like those more than the game itself lol )

I am using logic, as in referencing what GW has done over the past 5 months along with the other rumors.

$100 BRB and $100 for the starter set, but only includes starter rules. Meaning the minirulebook we normally grab will probably be the third tier release much later this year and probably $50 as the current one is, $40 for the iPad variant.

If we didn't just go through "The December to Remember" event along with the supplement and mini-codex hell, all at full codex price, I'd be a bit more willing on the optimism. As of now, I'll stick with the notion the new book will be $100.

And because wake-up... we are being fleeced for a bad product. For $100, I could acquire the rules to probably 3 ~ 5 other games. And for $2000 USD, I would have armies for each of those games, if not two of each. And I wouldn't need to worry about "forging the narratives" or waiting a year for FAQs.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:
I don't understand why so many people have a problem with the cost of the rulebook...

Because we only got the last one.

2 years really isn't that short of a time frame, it just feels short because we're used to it being longer.

That said, $100 strikes me as a bit steep. I mean the old one wasn't that bad and unless this one has been eating all the meat pies it shouldn't be so thick that it could warrant that price.

Then again I still say the basic codex should be $25 ($30 for the Marine one) tops so what do I know?

 Leth wrote:
Honestly $100 bucks every two years is nothing as far as luxury hobbies go. I have no problems spending 50 bucks a year for a game I enjoy. Would I like it to last longer? Sure, I would also like my comcast bill to be cheaper. But while it remains worth it to me to buy I will continue to do so.

Two wrongs (and bad analogies) don't make a right.

Everyone who is saying one hundred dollars is nothing should prove that buy buying the people concerned with the price hike a copy of the new BRB.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:
I don't understand why so many people have a problem with the cost of the rulebook...

Because we only got the last one.

2 years really isn't that short of a time frame, it just feels short because we're used to it being longer.

What is the renewal timetable for comparative games? How long as Infinity or Warmahordes gone between editions?

So if a FOC chart is out the window, I can field 57 Rhinos at 2000 points.

At this point I don't even care about the rulebook being too early, and I don't see why anybody else does, because "unbound" armies pretty much sound like this game is over for me. Those "bonuses" from following the FoC better be so spectacular that unbound armies become useful for nothing more than fun, because otherwise I'm outtie. Luckily I still have a sealed Heldrake to sell to unbound players.

GW can't even a balance a codex, let alone the entire fething game with no FoC. I thought I was screwed this edition for running CC marines in a shooting edition. In 7th edition, it sounds like I will be screwed for running CC marines in a ZOMG LOL HAX RIPTIDE HELDRAKE SEER COUNCIL SCREAMERSTAR ARMY XDXDXDXDXDXDXDXDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD edition.

I think this also debunks the "GW never listens to its players" mantra, because they clearly do. They listen to what players complain about and amplify it by 1,000,000. Meh.

The cost is directly connected to the quality of the product and its usefulness. GW charges for too much already for the BRB and dexes yet these continue to go up. If GW adds a couple of extra pages that costs a dollar to produce/distribute they increase the price by 10 dollars. If there products were quality products and the company ensured that errata was done properly and timely I think more people would be fine with a 2 year change in the case of the 6th edition mess (not something to regularly happen). It is our experience getting poor quality at outrageous prices that have to be paid in increasingly shorter time spans that upsets many of us.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:
I don't understand why so many people have a problem with the cost of the rulebook...

Because we only got the last one.

2 years really isn't that short of a time frame, it just feels short because we're used to it being longer.

What is the renewal timetable for comparative games? How long as Infinity or Warmahordes gone between editions?

Warmahordes just had their ten year anniversery, and they are still going strong on edition 2. I suspect 2-4 more years until we see Mark iii at the earliest.

Oh dear god I am so glad I just traded my IG, oops I mean AM, for another pile of privateer press models. I'm running outta stuff to paint anyway, and 40k looks like it is about to be a clusterfeth...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:
I don't understand why so many people have a problem with the cost of the rulebook...

Because we only got the last one.

2 years really isn't that short of a time frame, it just feels short because we're used to it being longer.

What is the renewal timetable for comparative games? How long as Infinity or Warmahordes gone between editions?

Warmachine came out in 2003, did a Prime Remix in 2007 and then Mk2 in 2010. So 3-4 years? I don't know if Prime Remix counts as an edition or not, I wasn't aware of Warmachine back then.

Infinity went 7 years between 1st and 2nd edition.

Frankly if this edition actually handles some of the issues we've been having with 6th (which for the most part has been my favorite edition to date, but is not perfect) then 2 years is fine by me. Especially if we're moving to a "living ruleset" that gets updated/adjusted more often to address problems. If not, well then I will definitely take issue with the new rules. Depending on the rules I may drop playing 40k completely. Maybe I'll pick up Fantasy or another game instead, I don't know. But if the game ends up being broken by this update then I won't have a reason to stick with it.

Infinity looks to have started in 2005 and is set to release their third edition perhaps late this year. There are also two rulebook-esque supplements, so they're pretty close to the book/2 years thing, but they don't have anything like a codex.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


What is the renewal timetable for comparative games? How long as Infinity or Warmahordes gone between editions?

Warmachine Mk I (2003) --> Warmachine Mk II (2010) [[$30 SB, $45 HB]]

Malifaux 1E (2009) --> Malifaux 2E (2013) [[ There was a 1.5E but many rules were open beta. $15 Mini, $40 SB]]

Infinity 1st Ed (2005) --> Infinity 2nd Ed (2012) --> Infinity 3rd Ed (Pending 2014?) [[General rules are free]]

Flames of War 1st Ed (2002) --> Flames of War 2nd Ed ( 2006) --> Flames of War 3rd Ed (2012) [[$55, three volumes]]

So yea, I could own the latest version of the rules for 4 other games (if we count Infinity's free ) for $100.

I'm just mystified that there is a contingent of 'Unbound' partisans who are very excited about being able to field their cool, interesting fluffy army (and who were never able to do so because their rule-bound, inflexible gaming groups would only allow 'official rules stuff') that also don't understand that the new "official rules" not only allows their cool, interesting, fluffy army, as well as a lovely Grey Knights/Daemons of Chaos army composed entirely of Dreadknights and Heldrakes. Will those people really rejoice in plonking down their awesomely cool Genestealer Cult army of Cultists, Imperial Guardsmen, and Genestealers to face off against, say, nothing but Annhilation Barges?



If I wanted to try to be positive about this release, it sounds like the development team is trying to deliberately (but deniably) screw up the entire rules system so damn badly that people stop buying GW rulebooks and develop their own, fan-based, vastly superior system, letting GW focus entirely on the Black Library fiction and making cool models. A man can dream...

Isn't the price purely supposition?

I believe that rumour landed with the same one that claimed that this book was going to be twice the length of the current one, which is stretching credibility somewhat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Butcha wrote:
I'm just mystified that there is a contingent of 'Unbound' partisans who are very excited about being able to field their cool, interesting fluffy army (and who were never able to do so because their rule-bound, inflexible gaming groups would only allow 'official rules stuff') that also don't understand that the new "official rules" not only allows their cool, interesting, fluffy army, as well as a lovely Grey Knights/Daemons of Chaos army composed entirely of Dreadknights and Heldrakes. Will those people really rejoice in plonking down their awesomely cool Genestealer Cult army of Cultists, Imperial Guardsmen, and Genestealers to face off against, say, nothing but Annhilation Barges?



If I wanted to try to be positive about this release, it sounds like the development team is trying to deliberately (but deniably) screw up the entire rules system so damn badly that people stop buying GW rulebooks and develop their own, fan-based, vastly superior system, letting GW focus entirely on the Black Library fiction and making cool models. A man can dream...

Unbound must still respect allies and unit structure, so no 50 man Purifier units supporting 100 strong Daemonettes or similar. There's still plenty of abuses of rules or fluff possible, but that won't be one of them!

Maybe they'll have feedback forums on their website - Banhammer

Maybe they'll open up comments on their facebook page - Banhammer

Maybe they'll support their specialist game ranges - Banhammer

Maybe they'll support their player base vs. just pandering to the new kids with hordes o'cash their parents don't need - Winning!

Maybe they'll release all the armies before initiating a new edition - Banhammer

Maybe, Maybe, Maybe - there's 67+ pages of things "maybe" GW will do and ZERO precedence for it. The only thing they've consistently done is raise prices and sell a shitton of models.

Don't you worry folks, If you want IG/AM, I'll have them posted in my trade thread tomorrow.

I'm out of 40k. Send me your Horde Trolls and I'll just finish painting my Fantasy Empire.

 TheKbob wrote:
And because wake-up... we are being fleeced for a bad product. For $100, I could acquire the rules to probably 3 ~ 5 other games.

That's the kicker for me. I've been getting into Warmahordes and X Wing lately, and it's just weird how little I pay by comparison for game systems which are comparable or higher quality than 40k. ~$200 has gotten me a nice Orboros army, a bunch of X Wing minis and all the rulebooks and counters for both systems. With GW products, I'm plopping down $200 for a rulebook and a starter set of models - you get so much less for your money when you buy GW.

 Leprousy wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:
I don't understand why so many people have a problem with the cost of the rulebook...

Because we only got the last one.

2 years really isn't that short of a time frame, it just feels short because we're used to it being longer.

What is the renewal timetable for comparative games? How long as Infinity or Warmahordes gone between editions?

Oh dear god I am so glad I just traded my IG, oops I mean AM, for another pile of privateer press models. I'm running outta stuff to paint anyway, and 40k looks like it is about to be a clusterfeth...

Believe it or not there's a whole forum dedicated to Warmachine on this very site. Go there.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/27.page

I'm just as concerned as anyone with these 7ed changes but comments like the above add nothing of value. And yes, I know that this doesn't either.

It just staggers the mind as to how so many people who only wish to dance on GWs grave fill their time with posting on GW threads/topics.