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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
I agree with you Clockwork. Although I do wonder if 7th is an attempt to bring the game more in line with the way the White Dwarf plays games (i.e. do whatever the hell you want!)

I admit it's possible, but I want to hear it from GW instead of getting wound up about something I haven't even read yet. Jumping to conclusions may be good exercise but I like to get all the facts in if possible before I form hard conclusions on things.

HERESY!

I hope im not the only one who thinks, ‘Bring it on!’.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Clearly because a completly seriously written, not at all in jest mini report in the WD stated that this will be the norm.

What possible reasons are we given to believe that everything written there isn't the truth? It says that Ezekiel is using the Malefic deck, that he summons a Bloodthirster, and that something bad happens to him (it gets cut off there, but the idea that summoning Daemons requires a sacrifice from the psyker involved seems perfectly legitimate from a rules perspective).

Attempting to read anything more into what's there is foolish.

The first paragraph states the DA player only let his guy use the Maelific powers to playtest....

Can you please kindly point me to where it says that exactly? Keep in mind it's gw "play testing" which, for all we know, might mean it is a legitimate rule. Plus, considering how the Maelific is played up in the same page, it's doubtful it's restricted to just CSM and Daemons

Sure

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DXGwfut9Ljw/U2pfaITCiGI/AAAAAAAAeWs/ApmCM8sXaTY/s1600/beware-the-daemon.jpg

And it is equally just as likely, if not arguably more so that it is how the new rules work. Observe some details, they never say he was allowed to. They say he allowed his model to do it. Along with that, why were moral dilemmas made? Then let's hop to the next part. The "play testing" part is almost said in a tongue in cheek manner. We have absolutely no idea if this really legitimately means play testing, or them just tossing the rules aside again, or if it it's the actual rules. Now then, let us observe some other details we've garnered out which are more likely to actually be true.

"Sanctic and Maleific, and the latter is going to change the future of war altogether - it enables psykers to summon the fell denizens of the Warp to do their bidding on the battlefield! Beware, however, for if you are not Daemonspawn yourself, the cost may be high..."
Now then, let's first laugh at this changing the future of war altogether. This was a thing up until 4th edition came out and people still house rule this stuff all the time. Anyways, it enables psykers to summon them... well who gets it then? Daemons and CSM? Those are the only 100% answers. You can lax it to expand to IG and Inquisitors as well though but it's not that clear cut and even then that means you could theoretically have a GK army allied with an Inquisitor that starts summoning daemons. Onto the next aprt, beware if you are not Daemonspawn. If it's only chaos, that means it will affect a grand total of two models. Ahriman and the sorcerer. That's surprisingly few individuals. So it's most likely much more than that.

Finally, I ask, why not just use CSM in this? It's more marketable, more appealing to "the good guys" and just makes more sense. Yet they specifically chose a named character psyker to do it in a loyalist faction.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Clearly because a completly seriously written, not at all in jest mini report in the WD stated that this will be the norm.

The rules clearly allow it, and it's isn't hard to see how sacrificing a cheap psyker to get a powerful unit is a good trade. The only thing preventing this from becoming the norm is self-imposed limits on violating the fluff too badly, anyone who just wants to win the game is going to be happy to bring cheap demon summoners in their GK army. In fact, given how cheap inquisitors are, I can already imagine an awesome unbound army that takes nothing but naked psyker inquisitors and immediately starts turning them into bloodthirsters.

Oh so you've seen the new rulebook as well then? How does the Demonology pyker disciplines work then? So we can clear up confusion

Seriously, would you give it a rest already? We're on a rumour forum, discussing leaked rumours, people should not have to caveat every third bloody sentence with "WARNING: OPINIONS BEING PRESENTED BASED ONLY ON AVAILABLE RUMOURS" just to avoid getting snarked at. Everything we discuss here has an element of speculation, that's basic and assumed by everyone, we don't need a Warden of Caveats going on and on about it.

Thinking about it, I think it'd be pretty hilarious if Dark Angels were the only Loyalist Marines who could summon Daemons. Just because they seem like they're already pretty out there (they have an entire company that is under a permanent Vow of Silence because someone giggled, so yeah, a bit out there in my book) and I wouldn't be too surprised if we found out that they consorted with Daemons (or at least summoning and binding them and using the daemon's knowledge) to hunt the Fallen since they seem to be pretty "anything goes" in every other aspect of how they operate.

That said I'd like to see what these powers actually do. I assume that both of these lores have 6 powers each, and for all we know Ezekial was just trying to use a power (like channeling the warp through himself to try and kill the Hive Tyrant) but rolled doubles or something and exploded into a Bloodthirster as a side-effect. Because I can't imagine it'd be 6 random "Summon X" powers.

Probably for the shock/irony factor. And it sounded like the DA guy was the only one around when they wanted to do this.

 Yodhrin wrote:


Seriously, would you give it a rest already? We're on a rumour forum, discussing leaked rumours, people should not have to caveat every third bloody sentence with "WARNING: OPINIONS BEING PRESENTED BASED ONLY ON AVAILABLE RUMOURS" just to avoid getting snarked at. Everything we discuss here has an element of speculation, that's basic and assumed by everyone, we don't need a Warden of Caveats going on and on about it.

Sure, as soon as opinions on rumors are not being portrayed as or implied to be 'facts'

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
I agree with you Clockwork. Although I do wonder if 7th is an attempt to bring the game more in line with the way the White Dwarf plays games (i.e. do whatever the hell you want!)

I admit it's possible, but I want to hear it from GW instead of getting wound up about something I haven't even read yet. Jumping to conclusions may be good exercise but I like to get all the facts in if possible before I form hard conclusions on things.

Oh, what's the fun in that?

Obviously I'm kidding

I think what I'm wondering about more specifically is if GW included this Bloodthirster tidbit because it was something that was playtested and checked-off as good-to-go. Hence, the sharing of it would draw up attention (as it has) and people could be excited about summoning their very own Bloodthirsters in the near future!

It would also be hilarious if only DA could summon daemons. Imagine the rainbow of [insert color here] angels that appear in games to come!

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Thinking about it, I think it'd be pretty hilarious if Dark Angels were the only Loyalist Marines who could summon Daemons. Just because they seem like they're already pretty out there (they have an entire company that is under a permanent Vow of Silence because someone giggled, so yeah, a bit out there in my book) and I wouldn't be too surprised if we found out that they consorted with Daemons (or at least summoning and binding them and using the daemon's knowledge) to hunt the Fallen since they seem to be pretty "anything goes" in every other aspect of how they operate.

That said I'd like to see what these powers actually do. I assume that both of these lores have 6 powers each, and for all we know Ezekial was just trying to use a power (like channeling the warp through himself to try and kill the Hive Tyrant) but rolled doubles or something and exploded into a Bloodthirster as a side-effect. Because I can't imagine it'd be 6 random "Summon X" powers.

I will surely TRY to resist the temptation, if one of the powers is "summon greater daemon", to try rolling it up and spam the crap out of it on my squad leaders in my Thousand Sons army.

It'd be a giggle to have that work out once or twice, but I'm sure I'd get bored of it quick, TBH.

Another thing to note here, is that summoning is a use of the Maleific aspect of daemonology. It's being used against Tyranids, who don't get access to Daemonology at all.

Does this tell us anything about Sanctic? Is that meant to be the polar opposite of Malefic, used to deny summoning?

Something tells me at the end of the day this is just another way GW chooses to screw Chaos.

Big demons will probably require multiple psyker dice, and probably an appropriate cost of wounds to the casting character, or a caveat such as x model/character/unit is sacrificed.

At least thats what i see it being.

shade1313 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Thinking about it, I think it'd be pretty hilarious if Dark Angels were the only Loyalist Marines who could summon Daemons. Just because they seem like they're already pretty out there (they have an entire company that is under a permanent Vow of Silence because someone giggled, so yeah, a bit out there in my book) and I wouldn't be too surprised if we found out that they consorted with Daemons (or at least summoning and binding them and using the daemon's knowledge) to hunt the Fallen since they seem to be pretty "anything goes" in every other aspect of how they operate.

That said I'd like to see what these powers actually do. I assume that both of these lores have 6 powers each, and for all we know Ezekial was just trying to use a power (like channeling the warp through himself to try and kill the Hive Tyrant) but rolled doubles or something and exploded into a Bloodthirster as a side-effect. Because I can't imagine it'd be 6 random "Summon X" powers.

I will surely TRY to resist the temptation, if one of the powers is "summon greater daemon", to try rolling it up and spam the crap out of it on my squad leaders in my Thousand Sons army.

It'd be a giggle to have that work out once or twice, but I'm sure I'd get bored of it quick, TBH.

I can't wait for there to still forcing you to roll on Tzeentch

shade1313 wrote:
I will surely TRY to resist the temptation, if one of the powers is "summon greater daemon", to try rolling it up and spam the crap out of it on my squad leaders in my Thousand Sons army.

It'd be a giggle to have that work out once or twice, but I'm sure I'd get bored of it quick, TBH.

If it is a power it's likely a high cost power and the #6 power, if WFB is anything to go off of as an example.

 StarTrotter wrote:

shade1313 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Thinking about it, I think it'd be pretty hilarious if Dark Angels were the only Loyalist Marines who could summon Daemons. Just because they seem like they're already pretty out there (they have an entire company that is under a permanent Vow of Silence because someone giggled, so yeah, a bit out there in my book) and I wouldn't be too surprised if we found out that they consorted with Daemons (or at least summoning and binding them and using the daemon's knowledge) to hunt the Fallen since they seem to be pretty "anything goes" in every other aspect of how they operate.

That said I'd like to see what these powers actually do. I assume that both of these lores have 6 powers each, and for all we know Ezekial was just trying to use a power (like channeling the warp through himself to try and kill the Hive Tyrant) but rolled doubles or something and exploded into a Bloodthirster as a side-effect. Because I can't imagine it'd be 6 random "Summon X" powers.

I will surely TRY to resist the temptation, if one of the powers is "summon greater daemon", to try rolling it up and spam the crap out of it on my squad leaders in my Thousand Sons army.

It'd be a giggle to have that work out once or twice, but I'm sure I'd get bored of it quick, TBH.

I can't wait for there to still forcing you to roll on Tzeentch

Yeah, I know. GW hates us Thousand Sons players.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Another thing to note here, is that summoning is a use of the Maleific aspect of daemonology. It's being used against Tyranids, who don't get access to Daemonology at all.

Does this tell us anything about Sanctic? Is that meant to be the polar opposite of Malefic, used to deny summoning?

Something tells me at the end of the day this is just another way GW chooses to screw Chaos.

I'm frankly concerned on what it might do to a daemon army honestly.

shade1313 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Thinking about it, I think it'd be pretty hilarious if Dark Angels were the only Loyalist Marines who could summon Daemons. Just because they seem like they're already pretty out there (they have an entire company that is under a permanent Vow of Silence because someone giggled, so yeah, a bit out there in my book) and I wouldn't be too surprised if we found out that they consorted with Daemons (or at least summoning and binding them and using the daemon's knowledge) to hunt the Fallen since they seem to be pretty "anything goes" in every other aspect of how they operate.

That said I'd like to see what these powers actually do. I assume that both of these lores have 6 powers each, and for all we know Ezekial was just trying to use a power (like channeling the warp through himself to try and kill the Hive Tyrant) but rolled doubles or something and exploded into a Bloodthirster as a side-effect. Because I can't imagine it'd be 6 random "Summon X" powers.

I will surely TRY to resist the temptation, if one of the powers is "summon greater daemon", to try rolling it up and spam the crap out of it on my squad leaders in my Thousand Sons army.

It'd be a giggle to have that work out once or twice, but I'm sure I'd get bored of it quick, TBH.

Sure, so long as you get an extra mastery level that lets you select powers besides the required Tzeentch ones. OH WAIT... you can't.

Funny how the discipline dealing with Daemons is unavailable to CSMs most plentiful source of psykers.

Fluff last only so long as it doesn't get in the way of sales.

FOC limits sales in the sense that if all you can ever play with is three of something, why bother with buying a fourth? No FOC, no limits.

Loyalist/Chaos Human/Xenos are arbitray limits that hurt sales. Little Johnny plays marines but thinks the Bloodthirster is a cool model. Dad says "no, not going to buy that, you can't use it" GW looses sale. Now in 7th, no such limitation...sales commence!

The company doesn't advertise, it has no net presence, it only travels by word of mouth. It has closed shops, its reduced overhead, its tightened every purse string possible? How do you increase sales volume with minimal effort?

You come out with a new rule set two years sooner than planned. In that rule set you make "official" the removal of any and all limitations to purchases. You actively promote mechanics that require the purchase of a model to implement on the table top...psychic power that requires the purchase of somekind of demon stand in.

Why people think a company that would break years of tradition with the FOC but would only "playtest" loyalists summoning demons because the fluff is sacrosanct is beyond me.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Another thing to note here, is that summoning is a use of the Maleific aspect of daemonology. It's being used against Tyranids, who don't get access to Daemonology at all.

Does this tell us anything about Sanctic? Is that meant to be the polar opposite of Malefic, used to deny summoning?

Something tells me at the end of the day this is just another way GW chooses to screw Chaos.

I'm frankly concerned on what it might do to a daemon army honestly.

Maybe itll give Daemon armies a chance to summon Grey Knight Grand Masters? Haha

 techsoldaten wrote:
Another thing to note here, is that summoning is a use of the Maleific aspect of daemonology. It's being used against Tyranids, who don't get access to Daemonology at all.

Does this tell us anything about Sanctic? Is that meant to be the polar opposite of Malefic, used to deny summoning?

Something tells me at the end of the day this is just another way GW chooses to screw Chaos.

With Deny the Witch going to a WFB style denial thing, then I don't see Santic working that way, it likely does other stuff (like the old Marine power that made you re-roll successful Invul saves).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

shade1313 wrote:
I will surely TRY to resist the temptation, if one of the powers is "summon greater daemon", to try rolling it up and spam the crap out of it on my squad leaders in my Thousand Sons army.

It'd be a giggle to have that work out once or twice, but I'm sure I'd get bored of it quick, TBH.

If it is a power it's likely a high cost power and the #6 power, if WFB is anything to go off of as an example.

And they'll probably require you to roll randomly for which kind of Greater Daemon you get, because that's the asinine way they roll, and that'll completely kill my desire to even use the stupid Daemonology powers.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Another thing to note here, is that summoning is a use of the Maleific aspect of daemonology. It's being used against Tyranids, who don't get access to Daemonology at all.

Does this tell us anything about Sanctic? Is that meant to be the polar opposite of Malefic, used to deny summoning?

Something tells me at the end of the day this is just another way GW chooses to screw Chaos.

I'm frankly concerned on what it might do to a daemon army honestly.

Maybe itll give Daemon armies a chance to summon Grey Knight Grand Masters? Haha

An army of Draigos have been summoned sir! Good good we can crush the Daemon army. Forgive me sir but they are charging at us.

shade1313 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

shade1313 wrote:
I will surely TRY to resist the temptation, if one of the powers is "summon greater daemon", to try rolling it up and spam the crap out of it on my squad leaders in my Thousand Sons army.

It'd be a giggle to have that work out once or twice, but I'm sure I'd get bored of it quick, TBH.

If it is a power it's likely a high cost power and the #6 power, if WFB is anything to go off of as an example.

And they'll probably require you to roll randomly for which kind of Greater Daemon you get, because that's the asinine way they roll, and that'll completely kill my desire to even use the stupid Daemonology powers.

Or just trade that power for the Primaris?

Holy crap, they've done it.
They've turned the game into mini apocalypse. There doesn't even seem to be a percentage system.

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

shade1313 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

shade1313 wrote:
I will surely TRY to resist the temptation, if one of the powers is "summon greater daemon", to try rolling it up and spam the crap out of it on my squad leaders in my Thousand Sons army.

It'd be a giggle to have that work out once or twice, but I'm sure I'd get bored of it quick, TBH.

If it is a power it's likely a high cost power and the #6 power, if WFB is anything to go off of as an example.

And they'll probably require you to roll randomly for which kind of Greater Daemon you get, because that's the asinine way they roll, and that'll completely kill my desire to even use the stupid Daemonology powers.

Or just trade that power for the Primaris?

Plot twist, primaris is summoning 2d6 of the standard troop options. It's random gods and random numbers. 2d6 so there is just the chance of getting 12 meaning you'd need 2 boxes instead of one

I want a psychic discipline that gives Chaos things like Chapter Tactics, ATSKNF, POTMS and the ability to choose from different psychic disciplines. That's the only thing that would make this even.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Holy crap, they've done it.
They've turned the game into mini apocalypse. There doesn't even seem to be a percentage system.

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

I'm going with "nothing" until I either see the actual rules via leak or by having the book in my hands, which ever happens first.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That said I'd like to see what these powers actually do. I assume that both of these lores have 6 powers each, and for all we know Ezekial was just trying to use a power (like channeling the warp through himself to try and kill the Hive Tyrant) but rolled doubles or something and exploded into a Bloodthirster as a side-effect. Because I can't imagine it'd be 6 random "Summon X" powers.

Well, why not ?
1- Summon greater daemon
2- Summon daemon prince
3- Summon daemon infantry unit
4- Raise Skeletal Mage
5- Summon fish
6- Summon bigger fish!

 ClockworkZion wrote:

shade1313 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

shade1313 wrote:
I will surely TRY to resist the temptation, if one of the powers is "summon greater daemon", to try rolling it up and spam the crap out of it on my squad leaders in my Thousand Sons army.

It'd be a giggle to have that work out once or twice, but I'm sure I'd get bored of it quick, TBH.

If it is a power it's likely a high cost power and the #6 power, if WFB is anything to go off of as an example.

And they'll probably require you to roll randomly for which kind of Greater Daemon you get, because that's the asinine way they roll, and that'll completely kill my desire to even use the stupid Daemonology powers.

Or just trade that power for the Primaris?

Meh. We'll wait and see how it shakes out, and I'm fairly sure that other comments are correct, and they'll "forget" to FAQ the CSM 'dex to allow Daemonology to be used by my squad sorcerers.

Why shouldnt Grey Knights be able to summon demons, they already use daemon weapons.

It fits the fluff

"There are those who might see contradiction between our abhorrence of the Daemon and our wielding of sorcery. Yet these contradictions live only in the minds of weak men, and we are not accountable to such as they."

from Codex:Grey Knights

 StarTrotter wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

shade1313 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

shade1313 wrote:
I will surely TRY to resist the temptation, if one of the powers is "summon greater daemon", to try rolling it up and spam the crap out of it on my squad leaders in my Thousand Sons army.

It'd be a giggle to have that work out once or twice, but I'm sure I'd get bored of it quick, TBH.

If it is a power it's likely a high cost power and the #6 power, if WFB is anything to go off of as an example.

And they'll probably require you to roll randomly for which kind of Greater Daemon you get, because that's the asinine way they roll, and that'll completely kill my desire to even use the stupid Daemonology powers.

Or just trade that power for the Primaris?

Plot twist, primaris is summoning 2d6 of the standard troop options. It's random gods and random numbers. 2d6 so there is just the chance of getting 12 meaning you'd need 2 boxes instead of one

Pft. It'll be 6D3, and they'll require you to use their new D3 that they'll sell only on release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
That said I'd like to see what these powers actually do. I assume that both of these lores have 6 powers each, and for all we know Ezekial was just trying to use a power (like channeling the warp through himself to try and kill the Hive Tyrant) but rolled doubles or something and exploded into a Bloodthirster as a side-effect. Because I can't imagine it'd be 6 random "Summon X" powers.

Well, why not ?
1- Summon greater daemon
2- Summon daemon prince
3- Summon daemon infantry unit
4- Raise Skeletal Mage
5- Summon fish
6- Summon bigger fish!

Bigger fish will be a limited release of 1,000 models.

Chad Warden wrote:
Why shouldnt Grey Knights be able to summon demons, they already use daemon weapons.

It fits the fluff

"There are those who might see contradiction between our abhorrence of the Daemon and our wielding of sorcery. Yet these contradictions live only in the minds of weak men, and we are not accountable to such as they."

from Codex:Grey Knights

They use their own weapons against them, but they wouldnt knowingly summon or work with daemons. They'd kill one on the spot as soon as it was summoned.

I doubt they'll have access to these powers, at least pure GKs. Inquisition, probably.