Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 warboss wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm fine with tank kills being somewhat "random", that's really how they should be, it either penetrates the armor and does something critical, or it doesn't. HP's are really what I don't like, tank's don't just stop working or die after X number of hits, if it doesn't hit something critical it keeps going.

As long as the same is done for multiwound models then I'd support it. As it stands, somehow every wound but the last on non vehicles only apparently shoots pinkie toes and earlobes. If vehicles can be one shorted by a melts, so should a riptide.

Riptides should have been walkers.

Daston wrote:
TBF I shouldnt be able to send Ork Kommandos out flanking and kill a tank with Sluggas

I dont think I have ever heard of a military front line vehicle being knocked out by a hand gun. (scout bikes and things excluded)

Then again I don't think I've ever heard of a military front line vehicle being taken out by a dude with a sword either, so there's that.

 undertow wrote:

Riptides should have been walkers.

True. Would perfectly balance them.

 Sihdhartha wrote:

Daston wrote:
TBF I shouldnt be able to send Ork Kommandos out flanking and kill a tank with Sluggas

I dont think I have ever heard of a military front line vehicle being knocked out by a hand gun. (scout bikes and things excluded)

Then again I don't think I've ever heard of a military front line vehicle being taken out by a dude with a sword either, so there's that.

All they need to do is tone down the chart and then add that only pens remove HP's. Now suddenly we are using AT weapons again rather then VOF against things that are battle tanks. Sorry AC's, scatter lasers, missile pods and serpent shields have no business knocking out AV 12 and 13 so efficiently IMHO.

sucks to be Necrons if that is the case...

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Sihdhartha wrote:

Daston wrote:
TBF I shouldnt be able to send Ork Kommandos out flanking and kill a tank with Sluggas

I dont think I have ever heard of a military front line vehicle being knocked out by a hand gun. (scout bikes and things excluded)

Then again I don't think I've ever heard of a military front line vehicle being taken out by a dude with a sword either, so there's that.

All they need to do is tone down the chart and then add that only pens remove HP's. Now suddenly we are using AT weapons again rather then VOF against things that are battle tanks. Sorry AC's, scatter lasers, missile pods and serpent shields have no business knocking out AV 12 and 13 so efficiently IMHO.

To be clear then, you suggest that they should eliminate glances from the rules entirely?

Another route would have been to simply give all vehicles a T value, AS and wounds.

I still can't seem to understand how a dreadnought is less a MC then a WK, DK, WL or riptide.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
You're presenting your argument to the wrong guy.

It read to me like you were defending his stance. Sorry if you weren't.

Aye. To the contrary, I think vehicles are too fragile, and need a durability boost.

What I would do is keep hull-points, but change it so that only penetrating hits may knock them off. Glances no longer remove hull-points, but rather cause a 1d3 roll on the damage table.

So glances could still do something, but you need high-strength weapons to really take a vehicle out of the fight.

So, what are we looking at gameplay wise?

To start, A player will either need a pack mule or an android device.
Why?

Because We are looking at the average game requiring:
A) The Core Rule book
B) Primary detatchment codex
C)Allied detatchment Codex
D)Psychic card deck
E) Mission Card Deck
F) possibly chaos codex for demon rules
And finally
G) Army, Dice, Measuring tool,, Templates, Markers and counters.

In book form that is a load. In electronic form you need an android so that you can have multiple pages open at same time to check rules interaction(iphone no multitask well )



Next, lets look at time investment per game. 5th ed was fairly well balanced (core rules not codices) and stream-lined(1850 point game took between 1&1/2 to 2 hours.
6th ed now takes 2&1/2 to 3&1/2 hours at 1850 points.

Now add in Psychic phase and ways of adding total number of troops to game(moar dice) and 7th is looking to be a solid 4 to 5&1/2 hour time pit per 1850 pt game.

I mean, I like the latest rumour about the pancake edition style of per turn objective scoring but, imo, it will become just another part of the crippling rules bloat that 40k has become.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Sihdhartha wrote:

Daston wrote:
TBF I shouldnt be able to send Ork Kommandos out flanking and kill a tank with Sluggas

I dont think I have ever heard of a military front line vehicle being knocked out by a hand gun. (scout bikes and things excluded)

Then again I don't think I've ever heard of a military front line vehicle being taken out by a dude with a sword either, so there's that.

All they need to do is tone down the chart and then add that only pens remove HP's. Now suddenly we are using AT weapons again rather then VOF against things that are battle tanks. Sorry AC's, scatter lasers, missile pods and serpent shields have no business knocking out AV 12 and 13 so efficiently IMHO.

Brilliant.

 tomjoad wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Sihdhartha wrote:

Daston wrote:
TBF I shouldnt be able to send Ork Kommandos out flanking and kill a tank with Sluggas

I dont think I have ever heard of a military front line vehicle being knocked out by a hand gun. (scout bikes and things excluded)

Then again I don't think I've ever heard of a military front line vehicle being taken out by a dude with a sword either, so there's that.

All they need to do is tone down the chart and then add that only pens remove HP's. Now suddenly we are using AT weapons again rather then VOF against things that are battle tanks. Sorry AC's, scatter lasers, missile pods and serpent shields have no business knocking out AV 12 and 13 so efficiently IMHO.

To be clear then, you suggest that they should eliminate glances from the rules entirely?

for TANKS, definitely, i fail to understand how winging stray shots and deflections are knocking tanks out. Currently there are amazing perks to things like open topped, skimmers etc. etc. Being classified a Tanks have no benefit really.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Sihdhartha wrote:

Daston wrote:
TBF I shouldnt be able to send Ork Kommandos out flanking and kill a tank with Sluggas

I dont think I have ever heard of a military front line vehicle being knocked out by a hand gun. (scout bikes and things excluded)

Then again I don't think I've ever heard of a military front line vehicle being taken out by a dude with a sword either, so there's that.

All they need to do is tone down the chart and then add that only pens remove HP's. Now suddenly we are using AT weapons again rather then VOF against things that are battle tanks. Sorry AC's, scatter lasers, missile pods and serpent shields have no business knocking out AV 12 and 13 so efficiently IMHO.

To be clear then, you suggest that they should eliminate glances from the rules entirely?

for TANKS, definitely, i fail to understand how winging stray shots and deflections are knocking tanks out. Currently there are amazing perks to things like open topped, skimmers etc. etc. Being classified a Tanks have no benefit really.

Well, there goes the Necron's AT capability.

 Captain Avatar wrote:

Because We are looking at the average game requiring:
A) The Core Rule book
B) Primary detatchment codex
C)Allied detatchment Codex
D)Psychic card deck
E) Mission Card Deck
F) possibly chaos codex for demon rules
G) Army, Dice, Measuring tool,, Templates, Markers and counters.

I'm not sure you understand what require means.

... You know, in 5th edition, glances didn't do anything but annoy tanks.

I don't recall Necrons being at the mercy of enemy armor in 5th edition, though.

Necrons have the tools to take out tanks, they just don't use them because today's meta doesn't necessitate taking them. Why take dedicated AV when a squad of warriors can reliably wreck a Land Raider?

Removing glances would just shake up the Necron meta by forcing them to take AV again. Not the end of the world.

There needs to just be one system or another. Either keep HP's and drop the damage chart, or dump the HP's and rework the damage chart.

Having to overlapping kill mechanics is both unnecessary and bad functionality. If each successful hit cripples or kills it, then it having a wound mechanic is both superfluous and punitive. If it's got wounds, it shouldn't risk being crippled or killed on any successful "to-wound" roll.

How about if glances didnt remove Hull Points but you could shake or stun a vehicle with a glance. Say 1-4 shaken, 5&6 stunned?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
... You know, in 5th edition, glances didn't do anything but annoy tanks.

I don't recall Necrons being at the mercy of enemy armor in 5th edition, though.

Necrons have the tools to take out tanks, they just don't use them because today's meta doesn't necessitate taking them. Why take dedicated AV when a squad of warriors can reliably wreck a Land Raider?

Removing glances would just shake up the Necron meta by forcing them to take AV again. Not the end of the world.

They really were.
Necrons were horrible in fifth ed. Well, 3rd ed crons were.
Then they got slightly better after the update, due to enthropic and more options, though gauss still wasn't great.

Everyone keeps toting the idea that gauss is super deadly and reliable against vehicles, that a squad of warriors can rip away hull points like no tomorrow.
They really don't; a 260 point squad of warriors in rapid fire range will remove on average nearly 2 hull points.
Land Raiders have 4.

Also, please tell me what anti-vehicle weapons are available to necrons that they can field on mass and reliably, like most other armies?
Eldritch lances need a special unit unlocked by an HQ choice
Heavy Gauss cannons aren't cannon and mounted on fragile platforms
Scarabs need to get in close
C'tans are terrible
Spyders need to get in close
Doomsday arks depend too much on LoS

That's interesting, because I recall Necrons being one of the top-tier armies in 5th when their codex came out. Top tier in an edition where vehicle spam was the fad.

Putting two wounds on a Land Raider is pretty good for an infantry squad, considering vehicles are not their primary target. How many HP's is a Tactical squad knocking off a Land Raider on average? What about Fire Warriors? Guardsmen? 'Gaunts? Guardians/Dire Avengers? Warriors?

I can't think of many troop choices that could reliably put even a single hull-point on a Land Raider, much less two.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
That's interesting, because I recall Necrons being one of the top-tier armies in 5th when their codex came out.

Nope, you got it all wrong.

Wraith wing and the Flying Bakery were just bad dreams!

Necrons were excellent in 5th with their new book, and in fact did a lot to displace existing top armies. yes, the 3E book that was a decade old when it got replaced didn't play well, but their new book was a night and day difference even in 5th. They rocketed to the top pretty quickly.

I'd be happy with a change to the previous reserve rules and not losing a game until nothing was on the table after turn 3. Bring blood angels and reserve manipulation armies back.

And their 5th book is one of the ones that held up best in 6th (soon to be 7th) thus far.

 azreal13 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
That's interesting, because I recall Necrons being one of the top-tier armies in 5th when their codex came out.

Nope, you got it all wrong.

Wraith wing and the Flying Bakery were just bad dreams!

Were they effective against Av14?
Granted, I do not recall AV14 being commonplace in 5th ed.
Usually I remember AV11 being plentiful, which is what wraiths and destructors were good a dealing with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
That's interesting, because I recall Necrons being one of the top-tier armies in 5th when their codex came out. Top tier in an edition where vehicle spam was the fad.

Putting two wounds on a Land Raider is pretty good for an infantry squad, considering vehicles are not their primary target. How many HP's is a Tactical squad knocking off a Land Raider on average? What about Fire Warriors? Guardsmen? 'Gaunts? Guardians/Dire Avengers? Warriors?

I can't think of many troop choices that could reliably put even a single hull-point on a Land Raider, much less two.

Those armies also have reliable anti-tank that they could field in abundance. I.E: Melta, Lascannons, Plasma Weapons, Lances, powerfists, etc etc.
Well, maybe except for nids. But they do have a lot of monsters, so that balances that out I guess.
Their basic guns do not need to hurt tanks because they already have plenty of access to AT weapons.
Necrons do not have not much access to heavy AT. Against light vehicles? Yeah, necrons will chew those up. Tesla Destructors are really deadly against AV11-12. Not so effective against AV13 and useless against AV14.

To be fair necrons do have some AT in "The Fall Orpheus", not sure how effective they are though.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Everyone keeps toting the idea that gauss is super deadly and reliable against vehicles, that a squad of warriors can rip away hull points like no tomorrow.
They really don't; a 260 point squad of warriors in rapid fire range will remove on average nearly 2 hull points.
Land Raiders have 4.

Now, I'm no mathematician, but a 260 point squad of Warriors sounds like 20 Warriors, which in rapid fire range sounds like 40 shots, which sounds like about 27 hits, which sounds like just over 4 hull points.

 Jaceevoke wrote:
To be fair necrons do have some AT in "The Fall Orpheus", not sure how effective they are though.

Oh yeah, Fall of Orpheus AT is great. Unlike the ranged AT in the main book, one could field quite a bit of it.

Using your argument for why Necron AV is inefficient:

Melta and powerfists have to get in close, apparently that makes them useless for the same reason you think Spyders are apparently useless as AV.

Plasma and lascannons will not reliably take out AV13 and up, which is what you seem to think Necrons have the biggest issue with.

Monstrous Creatures, like spyders, have to get in close.

So that leaves just lance. How many armies can spam lance weapons? Not a whole lot.

I'm not seeing the Necron plight here. Most armies don't have AV that can be used "en masse" to take out AV13+

 Thud wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Everyone keeps toting the idea that gauss is super deadly and reliable against vehicles, that a squad of warriors can rip away hull points like no tomorrow.
They really don't; a 260 point squad of warriors in rapid fire range will remove on average nearly 2 hull points.
Land Raiders have 4.

Now, I'm no mathematician, but a 260 point squad of Warriors sounds like 20 Warriors, which in rapid fire range sounds like 40 shots, which sounds like about 27 hits, which sounds like just over 4 hull points.

The problem is that they will rarely be in that rapid fire range, because they have to either footslog it or get deep struck to get near it. That Landraider can easily do a lot of damage to the warriors along with whatever it is carrying inside. Just based on my personal experiences.

A full squad of Necron Warriors can reliably take a LR out

It ain't their primary job, though, you're better off using your Stormtek to destroy it. Or, in the very best case, your Sentry Pylons. Or, simply, you Transcendent C'tan.

Necrons do get some weird changes in 7th though. The good stuff gets worse, slightly, the bad stuff gets absolutely useless (If you can no longer destroy vehicles with a 6, Heavy Destroyers are rendered completely useless) and the mediocre stuff...stays mediocre. Sounds very good actually. On the other hand, Necrons get a massive nerf by not having access to Psykers.

 Thud wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Everyone keeps toting the idea that gauss is super deadly and reliable against vehicles, that a squad of warriors can rip away hull points like no tomorrow.
They really don't; a 260 point squad of warriors in rapid fire range will remove on average nearly 2 hull points.
Land Raiders have 4.

Now, I'm no mathematician, but a 260 point squad of Warriors sounds like 20 Warriors, which in rapid fire range sounds like 40 shots, which sounds like about 27 hits, which sounds like just over 4 hull points.

You are correct. I made an error
Of course, that is not factoring in cover, and 12" is still a risky range.
That raider, for example, will most likely have a bunch of very annoyed marines inside of it.