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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Everyone keeps toting the idea that gauss is super deadly and reliable against vehicles, that a squad of warriors can rip away hull points like no tomorrow.
They really don't; a 260 point squad of warriors in rapid fire range will remove on average nearly 2 hull points.
Land Raiders have 4.

One of us can't do math... is it me?

A squad 20 Warriors in rapid fire range is 40 shots.

At BS4, 66% of those will hit. 40 multiplied by 0.66 score an average of 26.4 hits.

Next you need 16% to score a glance. 26.4 * 0.16 = 4.2 glances. That's one dead Land Raider, right?

(without factoring in any cover, of course).

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Using your argument for why Necron AV is inefficient:

Melta and powerfists have to get in close, apparently that makes them useless for the same reason you think Spyders are apparently useless as AV.

Plasma and lascannons will not reliably take out AV13 and up, which is what you seem to think Necrons have the biggest issue with.

Monstrous Creatures, like spyders, have to get in close.

So that leaves just lance. How many armies can spam lance weapons? Not a whole lot.

I'm not seeing the Necron plight here. Most armies don't have AV that can be used "en masse" to take out AV13+

They can field it more than necrons.
For example, every tac squad can take a melta, fist or plasma.
Nids can field more MC than necrons
Lascannons and lances can be taken more often than Heavy Gauss



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Everyone keeps toting the idea that gauss is super deadly and reliable against vehicles, that a squad of warriors can rip away hull points like no tomorrow.
They really don't; a 260 point squad of warriors in rapid fire range will remove on average nearly 2 hull points.
Land Raiders have 4.

One of us can't do math... is it me?

A squad 20 Warriors in rapid fire range is 40 shots.

At BS4, 66% of those will hit. 40 multiplied by 0.66 score an average of 26.4 hits.

Next you need 16% to score a glance. 26.4 * 0.16 = 4.2 glances. That's one dead Land Raider, right?

(without factoring in any cover, of course).

I already said I made a miscalculation. Still, 260 points for a squad that will most likely get charged is a tad risky.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Of course, that is not factoring in cover, and 12" is still a risky range.
That raider, for example, will most likely have a bunch of very annoyed marines inside of it.

In general, you don't want to assault a unit of Necron Warriors. A good Necron player will always have it backed up with a IC / GA and that combo can really ruin your day. Along with taking 40 Gauss shots in the face. Not to mention you can use the GA for blocking the assault

A full squad of Warriors with Tank Hunter is a beast and wrecks vehicles like there was no tomorrow. And those Necron Sentry Pylons are really, really scary.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Of course, that is not factoring in cover, and 12" is still a risky range.
That raider, for example, will most likely have a bunch of very annoyed marines inside of it.

In general, you don't want to assault a unit of Necron Warriors. A good Necron player will always have it backed up with a IC / GA and that combo can really ruin your day. Along with taking 40 Gauss shots in the face. Not to mention you can use the GA for blocking the assault

You can do that? I was not aware that one could use FoF tactics with the ark.

Well, yeah, tank hunters on Warriors is nasty. Pylons are still on my wishlist. I want to field 2 shot anti-air lascannons. Or melta blasts.

So has their been any official or "rumored official" word on if there is going to be a starter box and if so, said starter box will have the full mini rule book and not a "trial" rule book? I bought the BRB when it came out for 6th and then later got the small starter one and after using the smaller one, vowed to never get the big one again. I mean jesus that thing is cumbersome.

Actually the necrons can field quite a few powerfist equivalents, warscythes, of course the cheapest you can get that for is 45 points.

Edit - Deleted quote

 Captain Avatar wrote:
So, what are we looking at gameplay wise?

To start, A player will either need a pack mule or an android device.
Why?

Because We are looking at the average game requiring:
A) The Core Rule book
B) Primary detatchment codex
C)Allied detatchment Codex
D)Psychic card deck
E) Mission Card Deck
F) possibly chaos codex for demon rules
And finally
G) Army, Dice, Measuring tool,, Templates, Markers and counters.

None of what you've listed here (with the possible exception of the Daemons codex) is new. All of it would be required to play a game of 6th Ed using allies. And the card decks are far from required.

 Jaceevoke wrote:
Actually the necrons can field quite a few powerfist equivalents, warscythes, of course the cheapest you can get that for is 45 points.

Edit - Deleted quote

Still not as often as marines. Terminators have them, tacs can take them, HQs can take them, Assault Marines can take them, etc etc.
Scythes are better though.
Actually, the cheapest for a scythe is 40 (the Lychguard)

 Jaceevoke wrote:
Actually the necrons can field quite a few powerfist equivalents, warscythes, of course the cheapest you can get that for is 45 points.

Edit - Deleted quote

The problem is that Necrons can hardly deliver the Warscythes. LG are terrible and Necrons don't have an Assault vehicle to deliver them. The only WS unit is a Royal Court with 5 Lords riding a Ghost Ark.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

They can field it more than necrons.
For example, every tac squad can take a melta, fist or plasma.
Nids can field more MC than necrons
Lascannons and lances can be taken more often than Heavy Gauss

So what? None of this demonstrates that Necrons struggle against armor. History shows that they don't. They were a top-tier army in 5th edition. The edition of Leaf-Blower lists and IG tank spam. Necrons can handle armor just fine without glances. You might not have "as much" anti-armor as other factions, but so what? You still have Strength 10 guns on one of the best flyers in the game. You have scarabs, you have warscythes, you have spyders, you have Arks. There is not so much armor on the table that you're helpless against it.

I wont be buying again the BRB as I never use it and even if I like to have the book on my collection, I don't want to give 60 euro for a book that changes once every two years. So mini rulebook for me.
If starter does not contain mini rulebook, pdf for me. But I m gonna buy the cards etc.
As for me as I haven't comment this new release yet, I would wait and see. Always playtesting gives better answers to whether this edition is better than 6th. So time will tell. I have to admit them though that the effort looks promising though.
Let's keep it up with the rumors,

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

They can field it more than necrons.
For example, every tac squad can take a melta, fist or plasma.
Nids can field more MC than necrons
Lascannons and lances can be taken more often than Heavy Gauss

So what? None of this demonstrates that Necrons struggle against armor. History shows that they don't. They were a top-tier army in 5th edition. The edition of Leaf-Blower lists and IG tank spam. Necrons can handle armor just fine without glances.

Actually, no. Without FW and Gauss, Necrons have no reliable way to destroy vehicles AV 13+. With FW, you got Sentry Turrets.

bs. They can deal with it as well as most of the other armies in the game. Very few factions can "spam" weapons that "reliably" kill AV13+. That's the point of AV13 and 14.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

They can field it more than necrons.
For example, every tac squad can take a melta, fist or plasma.
Nids can field more MC than necrons
Lascannons and lances can be taken more often than Heavy Gauss

So what? None of this demonstrates that Necrons struggle against armor. History shows that they don't. They were a top-tier army in 5th edition. The edition of Leaf-Blower lists and IG tank spam. Necrons can handle armor just fine without glances.

Actually, no. Without FW and Gauss, Necrons have no reliable way to destroy vehicles AV 13+. With FW, you got Sentry Turrets.

Wraiths, Spyders, Scarabs, Doomscythes, Triarch Stalkers, Destroyer Lords, Haywire Crypteks.

That about cover it?

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:
Actually the necrons can field quite a few powerfist equivalents, warscythes, of course the cheapest you can get that for is 45 points.

Edit - Deleted quote

The problem is that Necrons can hardly deliver the Warscythes. LG are terrible and Necrons don't have an Assault vehicle to deliver them. The only WS unit is a Royal Court with 5 Lords riding a Ghost Ark.

True, I don't typically look at it that way. I rather have them in the warrior squads that way if they get charged at least there is some chance of them surviving.

 Thud wrote:
Haywire Crypteks.

That about cover it?

Forgot about Haywire and the DL, correct, thanks for adding. The rest isn't points-efficient.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
bs. They can deal with it as well as most of the other armies in the game. Very few factions can "spam" weapons that "reliably" kill AV13+. That's the point of AV13 and 14.

Most factions have access to lascannons, grav guns, plasma, power fists and special stuff likes lances and the likes. Necrons lack these options. Their lascannon option comes at 60 pts per model - which is just ridiculously expensive.

Necrons need Gauss. Not only for fluff reasons, but also gameplay-wise. Silver-tide players can confirm

So, we've had, what, three pages of discussion about how one army will theoretically cope with something that very likely doesn't exist?

Only one army has access to grav-cannons. Necrons have power fist equivelents, plasma does not reliably kill AV13+, Lascannons do not reliably kill AV13+

Very few armies can "reliably" kill AV13+. Necrons aren't unique in this, and no, as 5th edition showed us, they don't need the ability to glance vehicles to death with their troops choices in order to handle armor.

 azreal13 wrote:
So, we've had, what, three pages of discussion about how one army will theoretically cope with something that very likely doesn't exist?

Well, your entire argument with me hinged on the idea that Deathstars would be balanced or not played with. Not too different, really.

 azreal13 wrote:
So, we've had, what, three pages of discussion about how one army will theoretically cope with something that very likely doesn't exist?

Indeed. We need more rumors. Like if there are going to be more Battleforged FoCs.

*knock knock* sorry to interrupt the necron discussion... Can you direct me to the 7th edition rumor thread? Oh, wait....

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
So, we've had, what, three pages of discussion about how one army will theoretically cope with something that very likely doesn't exist?

Indeed. We need more rumors. Like if there are going to be more Battleforged FoCs.

Oh I'm sure we will, in the form of 50 dollar supplements of course. And then people will argue whether or not their legal in normal games

 Wuyley wrote:
So has their been any official or "rumored official" word on if there is going to be a starter box and if so, said starter box will have the full mini rule book and not a "trial" rule book? I bought the BRB when it came out for 6th and then later got the small starter one and after using the smaller one, vowed to never get the big one again. I mean jesus that thing is cumbersome.

It says in the new WD that Dark Vengeance will have an updated rulebook from some unspecified time in the future.

So along with 40K Radio saying "book only" that pretty much kills any ideas about a new starter box.

Has the latest natfka stuff been mentioned? That there's supposed to be an "organized play" supplement coming out this autumn?

Had a chance to talk to my FLGS and good friend regarding the edition. He has some similar info as to what's been posted but some stuff I haven't seen posted 9got tired of reading about xbox and MtG).

Sounds like the reps were only getting a day with the new book so I doubt we are gonna get clear and concise info but for what its worth. Here's what I can remember

1. When asked if vehicles were more durable the response was they now explode on a 7+. Conjecture on our part is 6 maybe has maybe d3 hull point strip like for super heavies in 6ed.
2. No assault from reserve. Friend knew I'd want to know this.
3. Its been said but to reiterate no sweep into new combats.
4. Charge range is same ole 2d6 but he did say it sounded like move through cover works for charging now.
5. Apparently denying powers doesn't require a psycher, so necrons and tau will get to as well.
6. There's some changes to USRs and specifically how they are conferred to units from ICs. Another one he knew I'd want to know about (I bitched about it this weekend )
7. So he mentioned there's an advantage to focusing on a set of psychic powers or something. Not really sure how it works or what. We are assuming if you roll all on one discipline you get a bonus but it seemed kinda vague.
8. Battle brothers can ride in each others transports now. I forsee much shenanigans here.
9. Everything scores. Did throw in a 'unless stated otherwise' so who knows what will have caveats (swarms I imagine but what else?)
10. Sounded like shooting psychic powers were resolved in the psychic phase, not shooting phase. Wonder how that will work for ICs and targeting.

Considering thecrazy things that have been discussed in this thread, it's honestly almost insulting that people took issue with this dicussion...

"Ermagawd Unbound =sky is falling worse 40K evur omgomgomgomg Games Workshop = satan rabblerabble!!!111!111oneone!!11!1"

is that better?

 winterman wrote:
Had a chance to talk to my FLGS and good friend regarding the edition. He has some similar info as to what's been posted but some stuff I haven't seen posted 9got tired of reading about xbox and MtG).

Sounds like the reps were only getting a day with the new book so I doubt we are gonna get clear and concise info but for what its worth. Here's what I can remember

1. When asked if vehicles were more durable the response was they now explode on a 7+. Conjecture on our part is 6 maybe has maybe d3 hull point strip like for super heavies in 6ed.
2. No assault from reserve. Friend knew I'd want to know this.
3. Its been said but to reiterate no sweep into new combats.
4. Charge range is same ole 2d6 but he did say it sounded like move through cover works for charging now.
5. Apparently denying powers doesn't require a psycher, so necrons and tau will get to as well.
6. There's some changes to USRs and specifically how they are conferred to units from ICs. Another one he knew I'd want to know about (I bitched about it this weekend )
7. So he mentioned there's an advantage to focusing on a set of psychic powers or something. Not really sure how it works or what. We are assuming if you roll all on one discipline you get a bonus but it seemed kinda vague.
8. Battle brothers can ride in each others transports now. I forsee much shenanigans here.
9. Everything scores. Did throw in a 'unless stated otherwise' so who knows what will have caveats (swarms I imagine but what else?)
10. Sounded like shooting psychic powers were resolved in the psychic phase, not shooting phase. Wonder how that will work for ICs and targeting.

Hmmm. 2d6 Charge range makes me sad. The others I'm ambivalent about.

"8. Battle brothers can ride in each others transports now. I forsee much shenanigans here. "

They made it worse?

Jesus.

Please, please, please let #8 be true.

I could then stick a load of Repentia in a Land Raider and beat some face in with them.

Yeah, BB's being able to use each other's transports is a MASSIVE buff to Imperial armies.

Kinda.

OH MY GAWD WAIT.

fething BLOOD-LETTERS IN A LAND RAIDER.

Not efficient? Who cares? It's blood-letters in a land raider.

 Thud wrote:
"8. Battle brothers can ride in each others transports now. I forsee much shenanigans here. "

They made it worse?

Jesus.

Eh... not that much worst.

Really depends on who are Battle Brothers though...

Looking at my copy of WDW and this is epic:

Units now shoot based on the weapon they're holding. E.g., the flamer shoots and resolves all wounds, then the bolters in the unit shoot and resolve all wounds. So on and so forth until all eligible weapons have been fired.

No more 'my bolter has 24" range so my flamer wounds can apply to models up to 24" away." This is huge.