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 Alex C wrote:
Mini-Rulebook is usually in reference to the smaller, A5-sized book that comes in starter sets.

Which isn't at all what we were talking about.

 Leth wrote:
There is a mini rulebook in addition to the full size one,

There is? Then i stand corrected. Sorry.

 kronk wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Also getting a mini rulebook that is super handy.

Also if you make that kind of money anything that saves you minutes per game is worth every dollar.

But we're all getting a mini-rulebook. The basic ($85) rulebook will come as 3 separate books per White Dwarf. Notice it says "Slipcased 3 volume hardback set"? 1. Rules, 2. Fluff, 3. Pretty Model Pictures.

It WAS confirmed the 6th edition starter boxes would go back to GW (or perhaps the GW managers would get minis to slip in) and the new 7th minis would be put in them. It was mentioned in WD.... So this summer for minis in the old starters? Perhaps new 7th (BA vs Orks) starters with minis for Xmas?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

 Alex C wrote:
Mini-Rulebook is usually in reference to the smaller, A5-sized book that comes in starter sets.

Which isn't at all what we were talking about.

 Leth wrote:
There is a mini rulebook in addition to the full size one,

There is? Then i stand corrected. Sorry.

Don't hold your breath though. That probably wont be on individual sale until next year. (Unless you get it off ebay). They'll (GW) want DV sets to sell out first ('cause they'll get the minis first in them), then the new starter box (if that is actually happening)... Then a mini for sale on it's own (spring/summer 2015 maybe... IMHO

So if we can make an Unbound army of all flyers, does that mean flyers on the first turn? Or is that just a part of throwing away all restrictions? Sounds... fun?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Snapshots being -2 BS instead of outright BS1 lends credence to the idea that overwatch may require some kind of test now. It's simply too powerful now without something to reign it in.

So basically +1 BS and now its overpowered, whereas before it was nearly worthless to you?

 Wayshuba wrote:
[
I hate to say this, but I am one of those people with plenty of money to burn. Quite honestly, there isn't a price on anything GW that would deter me based on my income. However, it doesn't mean I am stupid with my money either. I expect fair value for what I spend regardless of what it is (or unless my wife or son really wants it). This is NOT a fair value - it is a blatant rip off and seeing GW do something like this actually disturbs me a bit to think they would stoop so low as to try and pull this s*** off on people. Just the general principle of it tells me they have turned into a bunch of moneygrubbing scumbags. Sorry, but that is exactly how someone who could easily afford this LE feels. So I ask again, just who are they targeting this at?

Edit: Oh, and Leth, when you talk about someone making that in two hours you do realize that means they earn at least a $400,000 salary don't you? How many people like that do you think are really playing GW games (I personally know of only one)? And if that is GWs target, then they sure as heck are going to have a very, very small customer base soon.

Amen. Just because people buy it, doesn't mean they are idiots. That said, the Apocalypse Collector's Edition was (and is) awesome, even if purely in production value it might not be 'worth' it. I expect this Munitorum Edition to be the same. Hence I'll get it (unless it sells out before the site works for me...)

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Snapshots being -2 BS instead of outright BS1 lends credence to the idea that overwatch may require some kind of test now. It's simply too powerful now without something to reign it in.

So basically +1 BS and now its overpowered, whereas before it was nearly worthless to you?

BS2 is twice as effective as BS1. It's a pretty big deal.

Some things have more than 3 or 4 BS too... I guess not a whole lot though.

 GrimDork wrote:
Some things have more than 3 or 4 BS too... I guess not a whole lot though.

Devastator Sergeants!

Vindicares sniping flyers left and right.

 Shandara wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:
[
I hate to say this, but I am one of those people with plenty of money to burn. Quite honestly, there isn't a price on anything GW that would deter me based on my income. However, it doesn't mean I am stupid with my money either. I expect fair value for what I spend regardless of what it is (or unless my wife or son really wants it). This is NOT a fair value - it is a blatant rip off and seeing GW do something like this actually disturbs me a bit to think they would stoop so low as to try and pull this s*** off on people. Just the general principle of it tells me they have turned into a bunch of moneygrubbing scumbags. Sorry, but that is exactly how someone who could easily afford this LE feels. So I ask again, just who are they targeting this at?

Edit: Oh, and Leth, when you talk about someone making that in two hours you do realize that means they earn at least a $400,000 salary don't you? How many people like that do you think are really playing GW games (I personally know of only one)? And if that is GWs target, then they sure as heck are going to have a very, very small customer base soon.

Amen. Just because people buy it, doesn't mean they are idiots. That said, the Apocalypse Collector's Edition was (and is) awesome, even if purely in production value it might not be 'worth' it. I expect this Munitorum Edition to be the same. Hence I'll get it (unless it sells out before the site works for me...)

Hey Shandara, I think you might be misunderstanding Wayshuba and myself in this context. I didn't say that people who are buying the LE are idiots (although if it was priced at something like a $1000 I may be tempted to change my tune ) and Wayshuba is saying that even with money to burn, there is *still* not fair value in the product.

At least, that is my understanding.

 Eldarain wrote:
Vindicares sniping flyers left and right.

I think you're confusing overwatch with hard to hit.

 kronk wrote:

 GrimDork wrote:
Some things have more than 3 or 4 BS too... I guess not a whole lot though.

Devastator Sergeants!

Assuming Signums don't change.


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 Eldarain wrote:
Vindicares sniping flyers left and right.

Turbopenetrator FTW?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 GrimDork wrote:
Some things have more than 3 or 4 BS too... I guess not a whole lot though.

Devastator Sergeants!

Assuming Signums don't change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
Vindicares sniping flyers left and right.

Turbopenetrator FTW?

Oh yeah. Dang.

 agnosto wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Vindicares sniping flyers left and right.

I think you're confusing overwatch with hard to hit.

Not when the rumor is Snap Fire is at -2BS.

 Accolade wrote:

 Shandara wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:
[
I hate to say this, but I am one of those people with plenty of money to burn. Quite honestly, there isn't a price on anything GW that would deter me based on my income. However, it doesn't mean I am stupid with my money either. I expect fair value for what I spend regardless of what it is (or unless my wife or son really wants it). This is NOT a fair value - it is a blatant rip off and seeing GW do something like this actually disturbs me a bit to think they would stoop so low as to try and pull this s*** off on people. Just the general principle of it tells me they have turned into a bunch of moneygrubbing scumbags. Sorry, but that is exactly how someone who could easily afford this LE feels. So I ask again, just who are they targeting this at?

Edit: Oh, and Leth, when you talk about someone making that in two hours you do realize that means they earn at least a $400,000 salary don't you? How many people like that do you think are really playing GW games (I personally know of only one)? And if that is GWs target, then they sure as heck are going to have a very, very small customer base soon.

Amen. Just because people buy it, doesn't mean they are idiots. That said, the Apocalypse Collector's Edition was (and is) awesome, even if purely in production value it might not be 'worth' it. I expect this Munitorum Edition to be the same. Hence I'll get it (unless it sells out before the site works for me...)

Hey Shandara, I think you might be misunderstanding Wayshuba and myself in this context. I didn't say that people who are buying the LE are idiots (although if it was priced at something like a $1000 I may be tempted to change my tune ) and Wayshuba is saying that even with money to burn, there is *still* not fair value in the product.

At least, that is my understanding.

You're understanding is correct. Each person will have their own value threshold where they feel they get their money's worth. For me, when I compare a $340 rule set to say getting a full color hard bound rulebook, army book and 2000 pts of forces (two 1,000 point armies) for Bolt Action being $316 total, then I see absolutely very little value to the GW offering for simply books and a few trinkets. However, someone else might find $340 reasonable for what they are getting.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Vindicares sniping flyers left and right.

I think you're confusing overwatch with hard to hit.

Not when the rumor is Snap Fire is at -2BS.

So Orks can't do it at all?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Vindicares sniping flyers left and right.

I think you're confusing overwatch with hard to hit.

Not when the rumor is Snap Fire is at -2BS.

But HTH is a separate rule, which may itself have been revised and may simply state "hit on 6s, no exceptions"

I have just recived an email from the online discounter I use for the 7th ed rule book. After all the talk of a 100 price tag I was really happy to see preorders for $66.

 Wayshuba wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Here is the thing about the collectors box. Its not for everyone, nor is it targeted at every one.

For many people the collectors edition is probably a weeks work+. So the upgrade is not worth it. Because of the offset in cost to resources.

However there are people in this hobby who are collectors, who also make a lot of money. For some of them the limited edition might be at most two hours work. So for two hours of work I would HAPPILY buy the collectors edition, I have more money than I can typically spend at those kinds of wages so its either things I can enjoy now or more savings.

Even if you dont make that kind of money it is nice to have, one of those little things where you get to see it on your shelf everyday or enjoy your exclusive extras. Also getting a mini rulebook that is super handy.

Also if you make that kind of money anything that saves you minutes per game is worth every dollar.

Am I saying this is a majority of their base? Nope, but there is probably enough to warrent a 2000 copy print run.

I get what you're saying Leth. And obviously with the low print-count this is supposed to be a rather exclusive option for people with money to, well, burn.

But I think the problem with the Munitorum edition is there is little reason for it to warrant that $340 price tag. Like wayshubba said, all of the extras together with the hardcover books leaves the cost of the box alone at a price tag of about $180. That's not so much offering wealthy customers much value other than to say you are that much wealthier than other customers; that an extra $100 doesn't even make you flinch.

I hate to say this, but I am one of those people with plenty of money to burn. Quite honestly, there isn't a price on anything GW that would deter me based on my income. However, it doesn't mean I am stupid with my money either. I expect fair value for what I spend regardless of what it is (or unless my wife or son really wants it). This is NOT a fair value - it is a blatant rip off and seeing GW do something like this actually disturbs me a bit to think they would stoop so low as to try and pull this s*** off on people. Just the general principle of it tells me they have turned into a bunch of moneygrubbing scumbags. Sorry, but that is exactly how someone who could easily afford this LE feels. So I ask again, just who are they targeting this at?

Edit: Oh, and Leth, when you talk about someone making that in two hours you do realize that means they earn at least a $400,000 salary don't you? How many people like that do you think are really playing GW games (I personally know of only one)? And if that is GWs target, then they sure as heck are going to have a very, very small customer base soon.

See the thing is value is all relative. So you might make enough where the cost is negligible but you still do'nt get the value from it. My father is the same way. He has a crap ton of money and still complains about the price of codexs(as he spends over 5,000 on a dining room table from india). So for you the value to work ratio is not worth it regardless of cost. But I know in the last year even my poor self has spent more than that on unnecessary food purchases. Would I rather have the extras from the rulebook or the food that is sitting on my waist right now? I would rather have the extras from the rulebook personally.

But lets say its a days wages, so like 80,000 a year or so(especially since you can get it for a discount I think since its not website exclusive). There are plenty of things I have spent more on that I would get less value from I am ashamed to say. I know I would enjoy owning it if I had the funds to spare, especially since I could save a friend 85 bucks by giving him one of my rulebooks. But sadly I don't even have the choice so it is moot for me.

 Mr Morden wrote:

So Orks can't do it at all?

I think it's safe to assume minimum of BS1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:

But HTH is a separate rule, which may itself have been revised and may simply state "hit on 6s, no exceptions"

Perhaps, but as it is right now it just makes you Snapfire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veriamp wrote:
I have just recived an email from the online discounter I use for the 7th ed rule book. After all the talk of a 100 price tag I was really happy to see preorders for $66.

GW is selling it for $85USD. That's been confirmed a couple times now.

So Orks can't do it at all?


I think it's safe to assume minimum of BS1.

Lets hope

 ClockworkZion wrote:
.

 azreal13 wrote:

But HTH is a separate rule, which may itself have been revised and may simply state "hit on 6s, no exceptions"

Perhaps, but as it is right now it just makes you Snapfire

As of right now, excess wounds don't matter in a challenge and grounding tests must be taken every time a unit successfully hits a FMC, that isn't a valid argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

So Orks can't do it at all?


I think it's safe to assume minimum of BS1.

Lets hope

I think it's safer to assume that will be the intent, but it won't be explicitly stated as such, leading to a massive ponderous thread in YMDC!

 azreal13 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
.

 azreal13 wrote:

But HTH is a separate rule, which may itself have been revised and may simply state "hit on 6s, no exceptions"

Perhaps, but as it is right now it just makes you Snapfire

As of right now, excess wounds don't matter in a challenge and grounding tests must be taken every time a unit successfully hits a FMC, that isn't a valid argument.

Oh I understand, but I don't think we can assume every rule has changed either. I don't think "Hard to Hit" will honestly stay as good as it is if Snap Fire really changes as rumored.

 Leth wrote:


But once again it is all relative. I know I would enjoy owning it if I had the funds to spare. But sadly I dont even have the choice so it is moot for me.

You make a very important point here (one I discussed at length on another forum). More important than any in regard to the pricing. If GW keeps going, with $340 rule sets and 70% price increases in one go, eventually they WILL price the majority of their customer base from buying, even if they want to. To reach that point, always without a single exception, spells the complete collapse of a company. It is a practice taught in every business school and used by every business in the world except for GW. Because, to reach that point always puts a company out of business very, very fast.

Are they there yet, no, but they have crossed the threshold into that territory and, if they keep going, which it appears they are going to do, mark my words we will all see a rapid and complete collapse. Every single company in business history, regardless of size, that has crossed that threshold has done so. The largest in US history was Wang Computer which went from $51 billion in sales to completely out of business in two years! This pricing law is considered a law (as opposed to a rule) for a very good reason - it has always had the same predictable outcome - the company death of a company in a very short time frame.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
.

 azreal13 wrote:

But HTH is a separate rule, which may itself have been revised and may simply state "hit on 6s, no exceptions"

Perhaps, but as it is right now it just makes you Snapfire

As of right now, excess wounds don't matter in a challenge and grounding tests must be taken every time a unit successfully hits a FMC, that isn't a valid argument.

Oh I understand, but I don't think we can assume every rule has changed either. I don't think "Hard to Hit" will honestly stay as good as it is if Snap Fire really changes as rumored.

Would be a good way of buffing OW while preserving flier durability though (assuming desire or intent to do so)

I have a feeling that Snapfire -2BS would be the last nail in the coffin of assault based armies.
Imagine assaulting TAUs with their combined overwatch (don't remember the exact name).
Its already devastating as it is right now.

Though, who knows, they might split Overwatch from the Snapfire definition and have different a different write up that specifically says that overwatch is done at BS1.

 azreal13 wrote:

Would be a good way of buffing OW while preserving flier durability though (assuming desire or intent to do so)

As you can see above, I hope for the contrary

There's still the rumor of overwatching requiring an initiative test, which would make Tau a lot less daunting.

 Shandara wrote:
There's still the rumor of overwatching requiring an initiative test, which would make Tau a lot less daunting.

Yeah, I remember that rumor. This, might effectivelly help a little bit.

 paqman wrote:
I have a feeling that Snapfire -2BS would be the last nail in the coffin of assault based armies.
Imagine assaulting TAUs with their combined overwatch (don't remember the exact name).
Its already devastating as it is right now.

Though, who knows, they might split Overwatch from the Snapfire definition and have different a different write up that specifically says that overwatch is done at BS1.

 azreal13 wrote:

Would be a good way of buffing OW while preserving flier durability though (assuming desire or intent to do so)

As you can see above, I hope for the contrary

Tau are BS3 so they'd still Overwatch at BS1. It'd be a buff to Marine, Necron, Eldar and Sisters armies though.

 paqman wrote:
I have a feeling that Snapfire -2BS would be the last nail in the coffin of assault based armies.
Imagine assaulting TAUs with their combined overwatch (don't remember the exact name).
Its already devastating as it is right now.

Though, who knows, they might split Overwatch from the Snapfire definition and have different a different write up that specifically says that overwatch is done at BS1.

 azreal13 wrote:

Would be a good way of buffing OW while preserving flier durability though (assuming desire or intent to do so)

As you can see above, I hope for the contrary

There has been a persistent rumour of a characteristic test (either LD or I) to allow OW for a while now, if there's something in that, or some other penalty, it could all work out fine.

I'm a daemons player, and I'm not panicking yet. (Yet....)