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 pizzaguardian wrote:
Anything goes with orks really.

...which is exactly why them not having access to anything except for Daemonology and Force powers (when they don't even have Force weapons) is a bit of a strange design choice.

Going to use those gorgeous Mandrake models for my Eldar demon-summoning.

 SarisKhan wrote:
As someone who has been regularly fielding 4 Rhino-chassis vehicles against TMCs, I can't help but smirk when MC players moan about the increased difficulty of destroying a Vehicle in 7th.

Rhino chassis die like they did before - to being hull pointed. So keep smirking.

Remember that we have to remove those T6 4-6 Wounds one by one, a process usually hampered by various kinds of saves normal Vehicles often don't get. And I can't see how 1 Carnifex being unable to reliably blow up a LR with one round of CC is unfair, given the points costs involved.

You mean hampered by armor saves because you're shooting small arms at them? I'm soo sorry for you. And 1 Carnifex, tooled for CC, doesn't pop a Land Raider - a vehicle with lascannons and transport capacity, hence the point disparity - reliably. Even in 6th it's not reliable to kill it in one round. But it's going from "Sure, it has happened but nothing to count on." to "This one time, at Fex camp...".

I mean - I'll deal with it. Somehow. Likely by trying to ignore the AV14 vehicles until I can swarm and surround them with gants and hull point them to death to kill everything inside. I'm sure that'll be more fun for my opponent than me just killing his transport and letting his dudemen out.

Demonology seems fine to me fluff wise, because they are only demons if you model them as such. Who says my Xenos inquisitor isn't actually using his mind to teleport a squad of squat allies to the battle from orbit (lesser demon stats)? Or my Space Marine librian isn't conjuring a terrifying vision of a legendary chapter hero (herald)? Or my Primaris Psyker merely telepathically sends coordinates for a large battle robot to drop from an orbiting landing craft (greater demon)?

So is the rumour true, assaulting into CC in terrain is a -2" and you still strike at initiative of 1?

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

A dakkafex charging a Land Raider currently has about 20% chance of exploding it, and generally will do 1.5 Hull points. Now the chance to explode drops to 7.5%. So, it will take 3 Carnifexes charging a Land Raider to have a reasonable chance to destroy it.

But why should a dakkafex be able to easily destroy a (250 point) AV14 tank? Really, a dakkafex loadout is for shooting, not close combat (that's just a bit of an added bonus). You want carnifexes that smash through AV14, you have to sacrifice the shooting and go for the smashy bits. I truly don't see any problem here. That would be like me complaining that Grav-Centurians can't reliably kill a Ork boyz mob. Right tools for the job and all that.

So here is the deal. A carnifex is the single most anti-tank assault that Tyranids have. Right now the Rupture Cannon (5.5% explodes at 48") or Zoenthrope (11.3% Explodes at 18") are the best ranged attack. Now a close combat Carnifex is worthless at pretty much everything except popping tanks, and it only explodes a Land Raider 24.0% of the time. Contrast that to a Dakkafex that is highly useful throughout the rest of the game, and still explodes a Land Raider 20.3% of the time. It actually gets worse if you are talking a squad of 2 CC fexes (48.1%) vs 2 Dakkafexes (40.7%), and even worse 3 CC fexes (72.2%) vs 3 Dakkafexes (61.1)

Here is how it is going to change with the new pen table
Old New Attacker 11.3 5.7 Zoey *Note psychic shooting will probably be less reliable, so it will go down. 5.5 0 Rupture Cannon TFex 20.3 7.4 Dakkafex assaulting 24.0 9.3 CCFex Assaulting 40.7 14.8 2 Dakkafexes 48.1 18.5 2 CCFexes 61.1 22.2 3 Dakkafexes 72.2 27.8 3 CCFexes

Now, A carnifex despite being the absolute best tyranid option for popping a land raider doesn't do it very well. It is the best in the entire codex, yet it still struggles mightily to do so. 2 CC fexes are 240 points. 2 Dakkafexes are 300 points. And remember they move 6" and can't deep strike or outflank.

Do I think the most optimized thing in the codex should be able to kill a model of roughly equivalent points? Yes, yes I do.

Do I think the game is at its best when one army doesn't have any way to expect to cause damage to the other army? No, no I don't.

I don't know, maybe GW plans to give MC's vs vehicle AP:1 and Armorbane, but I wouldn't expect it. So I imagine Land Raiders and Monoliths will become effectively unkillable to Tyranids.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Demonology seems fine to me fluff wise, because they are only demons if you model them as such. Who says my Xenos inquisitor isn't actually using his mind to teleport a squad of squat allies to the battle from orbit (lesser demon stats)? Or my Space Marine librian isn't conjuring a terrifying vision of a legendary chapter hero (herald)? Or my Primaris Psyker merely telepathically sends coordinates for a large battle robot to drop from an orbiting landing craft (greater demon)?

Yes!! My creativity is Unbound!

I'm going to have my psykers summon wads of 20 dolla bills (lesser demon stats?) and a couple of crumpled up 50s (Greater demon?).

 Red Corsair wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Well you could always snapfire templates, but blasts...meh

The only saving grace is that invisibility is WC 2, so basically only demons and eldar and GK's have access to warp charge farms making the power less of a nuisance to get off. But even if that's the only power cast each turn it is unhinged. Just think of all the insane units this makes almost unkillable.

I expect since they have made force weapon activation a blessing that applies to an entire unit, GK's will become a Brotherhood of Psychers and lose their ability to warp charge farm.

tag8833 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Well you could always snapfire templates, but blasts...meh

The only saving grace is that invisibility is WC 2, so basically only demons and eldar and GK's have access to warp charge farms making the power less of a nuisance to get off. But even if that's the only power cast each turn it is unhinged. Just think of all the insane units this makes almost unkillable.

I expect since they have made force weapon activation a blessing that applies to an entire unit, GK's will become a Brotherhood of Psychers and lose their ability to warp charge farm.

Brotherhood counts in the overall Psyker level i thought? Should still generate 1 dice for mastery level 1?

rigeld2 wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
As someone who has been regularly fielding 4 Rhino-chassis vehicles against TMCs, I can't help but smirk when MC players moan about the increased difficulty of destroying a Vehicle in 7th.

Rhino chassis die like they did before - to being hull pointed. So keep smirking.

Yes, they do and will. But I won't see that single lucky penetration roll blowing it up outright anymore, it's happened far too many times before. That change is sufficient for me.

rigeld2 wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
Remember that we have to remove those T6 4-6 Wounds one by one, a process usually hampered by various kinds of saves normal Vehicles often don't get. And I can't see how 1 Carnifex being unable to reliably blow up a LR with one round of CC is unfair, given the points costs involved.

You mean hampered by armor saves because you're shooting small arms at them? I'm soo sorry for you. And 1 Carnifex, tooled for CC, doesn't pop a Land Raider - a vehicle with lascannons and transport capacity, hence the point disparity - reliably. Even in 6th it's not reliable to kill it in one round. But it's going from "Sure, it has happened but nothing to count on." to "This one time, at Fex camp...".

Various saves ≠ Armour Saves. Obviously, 3+ is bad when you shoot Autocannons at it. However, what I actually meant is the fairly frequent: "Oh, you're shooting 6 Lascannons at my Carnifexes? Too bad they've got a 3+ Cover (Venomthrope) and FnP (Catalyst). Good luck!"

tag8833 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Well you could always snapfire templates, but blasts...meh

The only saving grace is that invisibility is WC 2, so basically only demons and eldar and GK's have access to warp charge farms making the power less of a nuisance to get off. But even if that's the only power cast each turn it is unhinged. Just think of all the insane units this makes almost unkillable.

I expect since they have made force weapon activation a blessing that applies to an entire unit, GK's will become a Brotherhood of Psychers and lose their ability to warp charge farm.

Psychic pilots on vehicles may give warp charges. Ditto dreadnaugjts. Dreadknights definitely do. Henchmen psykers do too. Gk could get 10 warp charges plus the d6 at 1500 points pretty easily.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Spoiler:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

A dakkafex charging a Land Raider currently has about 20% chance of exploding it, and generally will do 1.5 Hull points. Now the chance to explode drops to 7.5%. So, it will take 3 Carnifexes charging a Land Raider to have a reasonable chance to destroy it.

But why should a dakkafex be able to easily destroy a (250 point) AV14 tank? Really, a dakkafex loadout is for shooting, not close combat (that's just a bit of an added bonus). You want carnifexes that smash through AV14, you have to sacrifice the shooting and go for the smashy bits. I truly don't see any problem here. That would be like me complaining that Grav-Centurians can't reliably kill a Ork boyz mob. Right tools for the job and all that.

Smashy bits? Crushing Claws and Scything Talons on the charge is 5 attacks. Let's say 3 hit. Likely 3 pens, very good chance of nothing important happening to the AV14 tank.

And then you wonder how you let a model that moves 6" a turn and can't fire get into assault with a vehicle that can move at least 6" a turn (more if it feels like being less effective while shooting) and laugh as you shoot the crap out of the Carnifex.

And people are still surprised that they are nudging you in the direction of that expensive new model with haywire missiles?

It will take 9 Haywire missiles to kill and Land Raider which means 3 crones shooting at a land raider for 2 turns over which they can only vector strike or flame once. The expensive new models are great at dealing with light mech (rhinos, Chimeras, etc) But against heavy mech (Land Raiders, Monlithes) they do worse than a marine tac squad in a drop pod.

Courtesy of Forteh on the Tyranid hive:


I can 100% confirm the following, flgs had the book.

Smash is 1 attack only, doubles strength and allows reroll for pen.

CC attacks against vehicles strip 1hp per glance and 2hp per pen.

Charge through cover is -2" unless move through cover or beast, still i1 unless you have assault grenades.

No charging first turn at all.

Vector strike is single hit unless against a flyer, when it is d3, don't recall seeing the ap though.

Read more: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/46538/7th-6-edition-rumoured-end?page=28#page=27#ixzz32Nq9SIjo

I wonder what 2hp on a pen does to those Carnifex numbers. I am going to take it for what it is and at least try a couple of crushing claw/adrenal carnifexes just for giggles. Depending on the missions, the endless swarm is appealing more and more to me. Throw everything i can at my opponent, hopefully stop them/push them back. Respawns get on objectives as they come back on. (assuming the eternal war missions are largely the same)

BeeCee wrote:
Courtesy of Forteh on the Tyranid hive:


I can 100% confirm the following, flgs had the book.

Smash is 1 attack only, doubles strength and allows reroll for pen.

CC attacks against vehicles strip 1hp per glance and 2hp per pen.

Charge through cover is -2" unless move through cover or beast, still i1 unless you have assault grenades.

No charging first turn at all.

Vector strike is single hit unless against a flyer, when it is d3, don't recall seeing the ap though.

Read more: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/46538/7th-6-edition-rumoured-end?page=28#page=27#ixzz32Nq9SIjo

I wonder what 2hp on a pen does to those Carnifex numbers. I am going to take it for what it is and at least try a couple of crushing claw/adrenal carnifexes just for giggles. Depending on the missions, the endless swarm is appealing more and more to me. Throw everything i can at my opponent, hopefully stop them/push them back. Respawns get on objectives as they come back on. (assuming the eternal war missions are largely the same)

Hope that 2hp on pen applies to Hammer of Wrath. At least Carnifexes can attempt to ram a Land Raider to death.

 SarisKhan wrote:
Various saves ≠ Armour Saves. Obviously, 3+ is bad when you shoot Autocannons at it. However, what I actually meant is the fairly frequent: "Oh, you're shooting 6 Lascannons at my Carnifexes? Too bad they've got a 3+ Cover (Venomthrope) and FnP (Catalyst). Good luck!"

6 Lascannons and the Venom isn't dead yet? Cool story. And that's 300 (2 Dakkafexes) + 200 (ish... the psyker for FNP) + 45 (Venomthrope) points. Sooo.... okay? And it can't be that frequent - Catalyst is only a 1/6 chance.

Soooo.... Dark Eldar Venoms and Raiders... Don't have to jink because they get invuln (though they have the option to jink for a better save), and they don't explode as much. Have fun trying to shoot down a Venom rush when they're jinking at 3+. This is pretty huge for them IMO.

BeeCee wrote:

CC attacks against vehicles strip 1hp per glance and 2hp per pen.

What? Vehicles were laughably easy to kill in close combat already, so hey, lets make it even easier. Or did they change to-hit rolls at all?

Backfire wrote:

BeeCee wrote:

CC attacks against vehicles strip 1hp per glance and 2hp per pen.

What? Vehicles were laughably easy to kill in close combat already, so hey, lets make it even easier. Or did they change to-hit rolls at all?

What this does is make vehicles wreck from CC, not explode. Transports aren't quite as deadly to their occupants now. Dark Eldar stuff can move flat-out up close and personal, taking the 3+ jink, maybe get wrecked in CC, then it's their turn and the fully intact unit inside gets to go.

Backfire wrote:

BeeCee wrote:

CC attacks against vehicles strip 1hp per glance and 2hp per pen.

What? Vehicles were laughably easy to kill in close combat already, so hey, lets make it even easier. Or did they change to-hit rolls at all?

I couln't tell you for sure. That was a repost for people's benefit here.

Well smash is what made them laughably easy, a nerf to smash will help somewhat.

Backfire wrote:

BeeCee wrote:

CC attacks against vehicles strip 1hp per glance and 2hp per pen.

What? Vehicles were laughably easy to kill in close combat already, so hey, lets make it even easier. Or did they change to-hit rolls at all?

Smash is perhaps taking a major nerf. Only 1 Attack. That makes Vehicles more survivable against MC's.

If pen'ing a vehicle takes off 2 HP, Wraiths suddenly got better. Rending 'n stuff. Finally a buff for those weak units \o/

"No charging first turn at all. “

As someone who plays with drop pods, I like the sound of this. I don’t think it’s balanced, but I’ll take it.

Top of turn one: Sternguard pods down, shoots some stuff up.
Bottom of turn one: Take return fire. Make rude gestures at any nearby assault units.
Top of turn two: Shoot more stuff.
Bottom of two: Get torn apart.

Do we have confirmation of exactly how D weapons work?

mercury14 wrote:
Do we have confirmation of exactly how D weapons work?

Closest thing we have is that you can take invul saves unless it rolls a 6.

This is from the white dwarf.

 SarisKhan wrote:
As someone who has been regularly fielding 4 Rhino-chassis vehicles against TMCs, I can't help but smirk when MC players moan about the increased difficulty of destroying a Vehicle in 7th.

the issue isn't with rhinos and such, it is with AV13/14, that is where Nids (and demons?) have big problems.

Remember that we have to remove those T6 4-6 Wounds one by one, a process usually hampered by various kinds of saves normal Vehicles often don't get.

yes, but those same MCs can be wounded by S3 weapons, and the Nid ones have no invuln saves, only a 3+ armor save, and can be one-shotted by any ID weapon in the game.

And I can't see how 1 Carnifex being unable to reliably blow up a LR with one round of CC is unfair, given the points costs involved.

Because MCs are the *only* way we have to take out AV13/14 vehicles, and first we have to move across the board, then still catch them... and now it will take several turns for an MC to take out a Land raider....*after* it has spent 2-3 turns trying to catch it.

And this assumes you take a CC fex, which is a *bad* choice to begin with. If you take a Devilfex, you may never catch the vehicle since you will be shooting instead of running.

Yes, Nids can use a FMC, but those are expensive, and tend to die pretty fast once they land. And they will *still* take several turns to deal with the Land Raider. (Not to mention whatever it is carrying)

As someone who runs nob bikers, I don't like the no charging first turn thing. If da ladz wanna krump, let um krump!

 zammerak wrote:
As someone who runs nob bikers, I don't like the no charging first turn thing. If da ladz wanna krump, let um krump!

I still putting salt on this one... if not, well my all drop pod list just got even better, and I'm more than willing to scout forward and fire my bikes on turn 1.... this just seems too counterintuitive for even Gdub.... think of the havoc the Wolf Scouts with meltas might raise!

coredump wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
As someone who has been regularly fielding 4 Rhino-chassis vehicles against TMCs, I can't help but smirk when MC players moan about the increased difficulty of destroying a Vehicle in 7th.

the issue isn't with rhinos and such, it is with AV13/14, that is where Nids (and demons?) have big problems.

Remember that we have to remove those T6 4-6 Wounds one by one, a process usually hampered by various kinds of saves normal Vehicles often don't get.

yes, but those same MCs can be wounded by S3 weapons, and the Nid ones have no invuln saves, only a 3+ armor save, and can be one-shotted by any ID weapon in the game.

And I can't see how 1 Carnifex being unable to reliably blow up a LR with one round of CC is unfair, given the points costs involved.

Because MCs are the *only* way we have to take out AV13/14 vehicles, and first we have to move across the board, then still catch them... and now it will take several turns for an MC to take out a Land raider....*after* it has spent 2-3 turns trying to catch it.

And this assumes you take a CC fex, which is a *bad* choice to begin with. If you take a Devilfex, you may never catch the vehicle since you will be shooting instead of running.

Yes, Nids can use a FMC, but those are expensive, and tend to die pretty fast once they land. And they will *still* take several turns to deal with the Land Raider. (Not to mention whatever it is carrying)

You're wasting your breath, I tried to make most of these arguments, but from a Daemon perspective and it didn't help. People are happy that units that kill their stuff get nerfed. They really don't care about balance.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Sooo....
I'll just leave this here...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qfvil208tnafkqi/Photo%20May%2020%2C%204%2031%2002%20PM.jpg

About damn time... about damn time...

*walks slowly into the distance*

Has anyone figured out the math for x number of dice and chance of perils or chance of success?

I calculated an 11.26% chance of perils (two or more 6s) using four dice. But I could've made a mistake. So I'm looking for confirmation on that.