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Any word on how summoned darmons are treated for allied purposes?

Are fortifications added or removed? Curious given that stronghold assault added.

tag8833 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:
That's what I'm saying, can he really be grounded reliably? Most people target him with the grimoire so more often than not he has a 2+++ so good luck hitting on 6's and getting a wound through on that. On top of it, grounding is still a 3+ and only once. Even if you fail grimoire he still has a 4++ and you can always fly him off the table if you fail and don't want him to get picked off.

You don't even want him on the ground, and he probably never will be more often than not in the new system. Even Tau would stuggle to bring him down/hurt him when his buffs go off. Kind of ridiculous...

Lootas can ground him reliably thanks to volume of fire.

No they can't. They can make him take a single 3+ roll for grounding. And he gets to reroll that. Plus Iron Arm is now a fixed +3 to toughness.

Sorry, they can reliably wound him because they fill the sky with more saves than he should normally make. Even with Iron Arm (which is deniable, and has to be rolled on the table to get).

And casting Psychic Powers got a lot less reliable with how it works, and more dangerous as well. You naturally want to throw more dice into the attempt to get them off, but then that can have them backfire horribly because more dice = more chances to perils.

Those panned out false too. Cc vs vehicles works like it does in 6th except with a new damage chart.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

bloodangel70 wrote:
Any changes to Jump Packs? My Blood Angels are asking

From earlier in this thread about that:

No its one or the other (move or assault), no jink

Thanks,but Damn :(

mercury14 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
is consolidating into combat a D6" move or a 6" move?

If you mean consolidation during combat, it was a 3" move unless it changes. There is no consolidation into a new combat though.

Dag. Why was I thinking this was confirmed? :(

What about this question?

mercury14 wrote:
So assaults can only glance or "pen" where penning does 2 HP and doesn't roll on the pen chart?

What if the assaulter is like the Avatar of Khaine and has an AP1 CC weapon, can it still not roll for pen effects?

Assaults count glances as a wound, and a pen as 2 wounds for combat res, otherwise no confirmed changes as far as I've seen regarding how pens work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 buddha wrote:
Any word on how summoned darmons are treated for allied purposes?

Are fortifications added or removed? Curious given that stronghold assault added.

No.

And added. Kirby didn't cover them though.

Does smash at least cause a roll on the pen chart? :(

mercury14 wrote:
Does smash at least cause a roll on the pen chart? :(

Nothing has been confirmed that rolling in excess of the armour value of your target doesn't let you roll on the Pen chart AFAIK. There was a rumor, but that's it.

Smash is 1 attack at double strength with with a re-roll to armour pen.

tag8833 wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
[Smash being 1 attack is huge. The pen table needing a 7 is huge. TMCs seem to have taken it hard with the nerf bat. The scary world destroyers are going to have a rough time popping a rhino in close combat.

Those big scary nasty WS3 I2 A3 TMC that can be felled by the MIGHTY lasgun, sure did get balanced, boy, were they far too powerful before.

Sarcasm.

TMC didn't lose their effectiveness against infantry. They are just not able to one shot vehicles just like scatter lasers can't one shot rhinos anymore. Quit crying about your TMC's. The new damage chart effects everyone equally.

It does not. Most armies have access to AP2 shooting. In fact, many armies have AP1 melta. Tyranids don't. They had assault with MCs. MCs that are generally slower than the vehicles they are trying to pop. The only fast MCs are FMCs and they can no long assault after flying. Tyranids got the shaft on wargear options and that was a problem that has become more dire.

See this is where us Tyranid players are looking at this wrong. We're not supposed to look at what's not in OUR codex, but we should see what is in OTHER codices; I mean we can now Forge A Narrative by using the CtA rules. Want Melta: Forge a Narrative by allying your Nids with some Salamanders - that makes sense, right? How about Lances, I'm sure that the Eldar would leve to lend their Lances to a Tyranid force....now that would be Narrative! And if that doesn't do it for you, I'm sure you'll be happy to buy these Gargantuan creatures over here.......

Wait - no more area terrain?

So nidzilla is screwed completely? Awesome.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:
He doesn't typically need psychic powers to get his insane save. Just another FMC with Grimoire floating around near him.

Which is random and can actually WORSEN his invul save. Also, prioritize Grimoire if that's the case. The other Daemon won't be as durable and once gone Fateweaver becomes less durable.

You know, good target priority, one of the staples of being a good player?

 rabidguineapig wrote:
Seems pretty pointless to shoot piddly units at FMCs just to force grounding tests now though, which was typically my Imperial Guard's strategy in the past.

Take Hydras, keep shooting until he dies or falls or both. Seriously, Hydras are cheap enough to take a squadron of 3 and go to town with without screwing a list over.

 rabidguineapig wrote:
Mindstrikes are blasts and won't hit him in the air so you still have a get a wound through and ground him to do that, though flyers/skyfire are pretty much your only hope.

Fair point there.

 rabidguineapig wrote:
It's obviously not impossible, it just seems like they removed trying to ground him and kill him as a viable strategy which hurts quite a few armies/builds.

I think people are banking too hard on the Fateweaver only ever being at his best, and never at his worst (or even somewhere in between).

Certainly taking down the grimoire prince should be your first order of business and is the quickest way to make Fatey your , but as long as it's there he has a good chance to be a flying troll machine.

I've also never seen Hydras in my local meta, though obviously everyone's is different. If you don't know what you're facing do you typically take 3 of them in the state they're in with no interceptor? There is a lot of other skyfire though and Vendettas/Flyers in general would be a surefire way to get some wounds on him reliably.

Fateweaver rarely has to be in a vulnerable spot if you don't want him to be (barring a wound getting through, and failing the grounding test which is obviously possible but not super likely if he's buffed). Yeah, he might be less useful for a turn but you still have the option of getting him to safety or off the board.

I really am not trying to say he's always super insanely invincible, just that the new rules are generally beneficial to him and make it near impossible to ground or even wound him when he's at his best. When everything doesn't go his way, you still have the option to move him wherever you want or even off the board for a turn to avoid getting cooked up for a Thanksgiving dinner.

We should probably stop clogging up the thread now though haha, but as a final point I do agree with you that there are plenty of ways to kill him if he's not at his best; but the new rules make him insanely durable when grimoire'd.

rigeld2 wrote:
Wait - no more area terrain?

So nidzilla is screwed completely? Awesome.

What?

MCs don't get area terrain anymore???

I honestly dont see the FMC spam armies that basically required fateweaver to be as big of a thing. Also I just ignore fateweaver most games, he does not actually do much damage and his buffing ability is mediocre.

Especially with the changes to FMC I really dont see it being much of a problem.

Nidzilla will be just fine, you just have to play it differently. No reduced charges for terrain, have the ability to buy lots of cover. Everything is scoring so its easy to play to objectives and just bum rush with a crap ton of monstrous creatures and just see them get through it all. Venomthropes to spice. Flying tyrants are still really good. Ability to take multiple force org charts as long as you get minimum troops. So for every two troops and one HQ you take you get a full org worth of things you can take(so three elites, three heavys, etc)

Yea I am not exactly crying for tyranids right now

Spoletta wrote:
Demon factory will have many problems, mainly the fact that all those powers are WC 3. You are not going to summon more stuff than i can destroy in a turn, and you will do nothing in the mean time.

The only good power is sacrifice since it's WC 1, but it has it's downsides:

1) It comes after dice generation, so it will not contribute to that phase.
2) It's a fragile as hell model when you get it ML2, 2 guardsman can easily take him out. Worst of all he is conjured after the movement phase, so he can't be put inside a troop. He will NEVER make it to the next turn.

Also, what will you do when an assault army (which will now start appearing) gets on you? You are gonna defend with Tzeenthc heralds (without gifts) and pink horrors (without available dices)?

While we will have to see once it is in play, I don't agree currently. Summoning is only one aspect of the army. That is not all they do. So, while they are summoning they are using the rest of the army to also pound on yours. Summoning creates the classic war of attrition. You spend you psychic powers on offense or protection while the opponent focuses on summoning. Both your armies are focusing on killing one another but the summoning army continues to call in 100-300 points in new units a turn (depending on the dice, dispels, etc.). Over the course of a six turn game, the summoning army has added 600-1,800 additional points on the table. Meaning, they will win the war of attrition - every single time.

While you are focusing on killing the summoned units, it is firepower not being directed at their core army. So while you may kill the units summoned every turn, it is less of their core army you are killing as a result. In the meantime, all their firepower is always concentrated on your core army. If you don't focus on the summoned units, and instead on their core army, eventually you will have almost another entire army to deal with.

So summoning creates either great meat shields or, if ignored, will in fact become a serious problem once enough of them are in play.

While I am not saying it is the be all end all strategy, I can see how this can get abusive and very fast - especially in a Chaos Daemon army.

mercury14 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Wait - no more area terrain?

So nidzilla is screwed completely? Awesome.

What?

MCs don't get area terrain anymore???

NO ONE gets area terrain anymore.

Then how does cover work now?

Can you still cast blessings inside transports?

mercury14 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Wait - no more area terrain?

So nidzilla is screwed completely? Awesome.

What?

MCs don't get area terrain anymore???

Nobody does - it's not a classification of terrain anymore.

However craters offer a 6+ save for standing in them and ruins grant 4+. So there will still be instances of toes-in for a save.

However - vehicles apparently no longer create craters upon exploding, and nothing yet has stated MTC still grants 3d6 when rolling difficult terrain, suggesting it has been lost. It's not all sunshine and roses right now for sure.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Assaults count glances as a wound, and a pen as 2 wounds for combat res, otherwise no confirmed changes as far as I've seen regarding how pens work.

Same as 6th, FYI.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Wait - no more area terrain?

So nidzilla is screwed completely? Awesome.

What?

MCs don't get area terrain anymore???

Nobody does - it's not a classification of terrain anymore.

However craters offer a 6+ save for standing in them and ruins grant 4+. So there will still be instances of toes-in for a save.

However - vehicles apparently no longer create craters upon exploding, and nothing yet has stated MTC still grants 3d6 when rolling difficult terrain, suggesting it has been lost. It's not all sunshine and roses right now for sure.

There's not area terrain that's a regular 5+ cover save?

So....assault armies are still getting the shaft.

Random assault distance and overwatch fire will continue to cause failed assaults but by golly we get to do TWO hull points of damage if our attack results in a penetrating hit!

smh

Also, looks like 7th is shaping up to be the "psyker" edition.

 Wayshuba wrote:
While we will have to see once it is in play, I don't agree currently. Summoning is only one aspect of the army. That is not all they do. So, while they are summoning they are using the rest of the army to also pound on yours. Summoning creates the classic war of attrition. You spend you psychic powers on offense or protection while the opponent focuses on summoning. Both your armies are focusing on killing one another but the summoning army continues to call in 100-300 points in new units a turn (depending on the dice, dispels, etc.). Over the course of a six turn game, the summoning army has added 600-1,800 additional points on the table. Meaning, they will win the war of attrition - every single time.

While you are focusing on killing the summoned units, it is firepower not being directed at their core army. So while you may kill the units summoned every turn, it is less of their core army you are killing as a result. In the meantime, all their firepower is always concentrated on your core army. If you don't focus on the summoned units, and instead on their core army, eventually you will have almost another entire army to deal with.

So summoning creates either great meat shields or, if ignored, will in fact become a serious problem once enough of them are in play.

While I am not saying it is the be all end all strategy, I can see how this can get abusive and very fast - especially in a Chaos Daemon army.

Of course this is all assuming every summoning goes through with no Perils killing off your Psykers, or being denied, or just failing because of how easy it is to fail.

Yes, if dice go well you could easily end up with lots of models, but you're not really likely to. Pluse of you summon more psykers, how are they generating their powers? Last I knew, powers were generated at the start of the game, so unless something is in the rules for summoning that we haven't seen, summoned psykers have no psychic powers. Which means you just need to nuke that one psyker doing the summoning to stop it. Oh and one of the powers causes a wound to summon Heralds (even for Daemons) and the Greater Daemon causes a Perils. So you know, the only one that is "good" is the Summoning one to use, and even then you can focus on removing the Psykers that know it to eliminate the threat.

mercury14 wrote:
Can you still cast blessings inside transports?

I asked this earlier today. No one with the book has said you could. But the context was that psykers inside transports can only cast witchfires. Maybe... maybe a psyker can bless his own unit inside a transport but it isn't looking likely right now.

Battle Bros – benefit from warlord trait; ICs can join; "friendly units" for psy powers, abilities, etc.; can use special abilities to repair vehicles; can use modifiers and re-rolls on reserve rolls; can embark on each other's transports

Allies of Con – treated as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, attacked or targeted; cannot move within 1" of each other; no warlord, no IC joining, and basically none of the above stuff but are impacted by that effect enemy models.

Desperate – same as AOC plus if within 6" roll a D6, on a 1 they do nothing

Come the Apoc – same as Desperate but cannot deploy within 12" of each other.

No restrictions on scoring for any allies. yes they get objective secured.


Also no limit to amount of FoC you can take... so can anyone point out the difference between unbound and bound armies again? You can pretty much take a bound army with everything you need. 40k as I currently know it has ended. Not sure what all is going to be used coming into this next GT season.

Nope. Get behind walls, other models (25% obscured necessary) or bring a venomthrope along.

Chaos psychic focus – mark of chaos or being a daemon of a particular chaos god = auto primaris of that god in addition to others.

This is really quite interesting. Anyone know if this takes up one of your powers or when they say "In addition" it is actually a freebie?

If so I look forward to the FAQs for CSM as it might make Thousand Sons somewhat useful to fulfill the Mark of Tzeentch requirement and allow a Maleficarum roll

jamesk1973 wrote:
Random assault distance and overwatch fire will continue to cause failed assaults but by golly we get to do TWO hull points of damage if our attack results in a penetrating hit!.

No, you don't do extra HP, you only count Pens as two wounds for combat res. Which only applies vs. Walkers.

 Leth wrote:
Nidzilla will be just fine, you just have to play it differently. No reduced charges for terrain, have the ability to buy lots of cover.

Buy what cover? I haven't seen anything about purchasing terrain (anything new anyway)

Everything is scoring so its easy to play to objectives and just bum rush with a crap ton of monstrous creatures and just see them get through it all.

Apparently my opponents are very good at dealing with a bunch of T6 wounds because just bum rushing without cover means I lose - guaranteed.

Venomthropes to spice. Flying tyrants are still really good. Ability to take multiple force org charts as long as you get minimum troops. So for every two troops and one HQ you take you get a full org worth of things you can take(so three elites, three heavys, etc)

And Troops isn't a place where I like to devote a lot of points... you know - Nidzilla and all that. In addition, the Force Org wasn't a limiter for me (not really anyway) so that's a pointless thing to bring up.

But whatever - apparently it's all rosy for MCs even with the Smash nerf meaning only Carnifexes having any chance to kill a vehicle (including Dreads), loss of cover saves (so zero save against anti-tank weapons) and the FMC assault nerf.

 Tomb King wrote:
Battle Bros – benefit from warlord trait; ICs can join; "friendly units" for psy powers, abilities, etc.; can use special abilities to repair vehicles; can use modifiers and re-rolls on reserve rolls; can embark on each other's transports

Allies of Con – treated as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, attacked or targeted; cannot move within 1" of each other; no warlord, no IC joining, and basically none of the above stuff but are impacted by that effect enemy models.

Desperate – same as AOC plus if within 6" roll a D6, on a 1 they do nothing

Come the Apoc – same as Desperate but cannot deploy within 12" of each other.

No restrictions on scoring for any allies. yes they get objective secured.


Also no limit to amount of FoC you can take... so can anyone point out the difference between unbound and bound armies again? You can pretty much take a bound army with everything you need. 40k as I currently know it has ended. Not sure what all is going to be used coming into this next GT season.

feth em. Let the power gamers out-cheese each other ad infinitum.

jamesk1973 wrote:
So....assault armies are still getting the shaft.

Random assault distance and overwatch fire will continue to cause failed assaults but by golly we get to do TWO hull points of damage if our attack results in a penetrating hit!

smh

Also, looks like 7th is shaping up to be the "psyker" edition.

Overwatch is unchanged and charges are still random, but I think the shape of the game as a whole is lending itself to more aggressive play, which should make assault a more viable option.

Objectives are going to be out in the open (at least in theory); armies are only further incentivized to hoof it to them with the new tac cards.

But I'm a visionless microbe so it could play it out in an entirely different fashion.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Nope. Get behind walls, other models (25% obscured necessary) or bring a venomthrope along.

This makes no sense. No area terrain....

So Guardians have to just save against AP5 bolt guns with their 5+ armor save most of the time?