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Do you auto lose if you are tabled?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Super Newb wrote:


Do you know the odds? Do you? Compare prescience in 6th with prescience in 7th. Odds of success and odds of perils under each rule system. Walk me through the numbers if you think I am over exaggerating. If instead you have no idea what the odds are then you have nothing to support your claim do you?

Ive seen the charts, an ability that powerful should be that hard to cast, I dont see the problem, and yes, the rest of the tree is still solid, nothing you've said has debunked the fact that there are still strong powers other than Prescience worth taking on the Divination table.

Not sure why you're only hung up on just Prescience? It needed a nerf, it got a nerf.

Oh dear. This is CLASSIC moving the goalposts. You said I was overexaggerating when I said there is a tremendous nerf to prescience. Whether you think it needed a nerf is IRRELEVANT. Whether you see a problem or not is irrelevant. I thought it was too powerful before too you know. Which is why I was shocked when you said I was exaggerating about the change to it. The primaris power in divination is tremendously worse now because it is relatively much harder to reliably cast compared to 6th edition. Since you now seem to be agreeing with me on that, there is nothing more to say to you. In the future try to give more consistent responses ok?

mercury14 wrote:
Krak grenades were nerfed, right?

Only in that vehicles explode on a 7+, which they cannot roll except vs open topped vehicles.

mercury14 wrote:
Krak grenades were nerfed, right?

Yea can grenades still be thrown?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Loopstah wrote:
Do you auto lose if you are tabled?

Seriously? Have you ever felt like a winner after being tabled?

Wilson wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Wilson wrote:

It's a dice game.... expect lots of dice?

If you're after less dice rolling, I hear in monopoly you only have to roll two dice per player turn. OR better yet!!!

checkers! all you have to do is move!

sounds great for you.

Entirely missing the point.

There's a way to have a dice rolling game use a sensible amount of dice. Rolling absolutely everything on a random D3 or D6 or a table takes away from the players actions. That, and having to roll everything slows the game down, instead of just "2" rather than "D3".

But just so you understand, look at the old way, and look at the new way. Both involve rolling dice. Both will have roughly the same outcome. One is simpler, more efficient, easier to track, and easier to resolve; the other is a bloated mess.

-in your opinion, which is very much fair enough.

i will however happily play these new rules and still find it a good laugh.

I like the random side of things, means anyone has a chance of winning+ who knows what will happen element.

pros and cons.

Maybe yatzy is the game for you then?

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Super Newb wrote:


A problem? No, not really. But 'still solid', the words you used to describe it, doesn't a imply huge incredible nerf. The one guaranteed power you get, the primaris power, has been nerfed a tremendous amount. I don't think most people fully understand how much harder it is going to be to fire off warp charge two powers reliably.

Overexagerate much?

No, not at all. Not. At. All. If you don't think moving a spell from warp charge 1 to 2 in addition to having the new warp dice rules isn't e is a HUGE a tremendous nerf to prescience, either you are unaware of the math in 7th (likely) or are 8 years old and haven't taken the class to understand it yet (extremely unlikely).

Do you know the odds? Do you? Compare prescience in 6th with prescience in 7th. Odds of success and odds of perils under each rule system. Walk me through the numbers if you think I am over exaggerating. If instead you have no idea what the odds are then you have nothing to support your claim do you?

Prescience is a HUGE buff and force-multiplying power. It should most definitely require a difficult test to use.

*facepalm*. Why can't people read around here? I'm talking about how much the power changed from 6th to 7th. Some people apparently didn't think it was nerfed hard. For example the person I was talking to up there. The change it underwent is real and it has nothing to do with anyone's value judgements. It's definitely a lot worse now in 7th than it was in 6th.

 jhnbrg wrote:

Wilson wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Wilson wrote:

It's a dice game.... expect lots of dice?

If you're after less dice rolling, I hear in monopoly you only have to roll two dice per player turn. OR better yet!!!

checkers! all you have to do is move!

sounds great for you.

Entirely missing the point.

There's a way to have a dice rolling game use a sensible amount of dice. Rolling absolutely everything on a random D3 or D6 or a table takes away from the players actions. That, and having to roll everything slows the game down, instead of just "2" rather than "D3".

But just so you understand, look at the old way, and look at the new way. Both involve rolling dice. Both will have roughly the same outcome. One is simpler, more efficient, easier to track, and easier to resolve; the other is a bloated mess.

-in your opinion, which is very much fair enough.

i will however happily play these new rules and still find it a good laugh.

I like the random side of things, means anyone has a chance of winning+ who knows what will happen element.

pros and cons.

Maybe yatzy is the game for you then?

From now on I am going to refer to psychic denial as Yahtzee!

I think the most massive change this edition is the fact that everything can score. Personally, I'm seeing a massive shift away from troops to elites. Elites have always been better, with their downside being that they were either non-scoring or too expensive (FOC swapping shenanigans aside). But now you can just take the bare minimum for troops and throw all the scoring elites in you want.

Yes, troops will be able to secure objectives, but honestly, most of the time an elite unit will just wipe that troops out anyway. This results in things like:

Chaos. Now they can get their elite troops for scoring without having to pay the HQ tax. Scoring Oblits.

Tau. Crisis suits can score now. So can riptides.

Grey Knights. Scoring dreadknights and psyfledreads, without having to take Mordrak. Scoring purifiers.

Scoring Landraiders.

Deathwing that score without having to pay 200 points for Belial.

Etc etc etc.

Super Newb wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Super Newb wrote:


Do you know the odds? Do you? Compare prescience in 6th with prescience in 7th. Odds of success and odds of perils under each rule system. Walk me through the numbers if you think I am over exaggerating. If instead you have no idea what the odds are then you have nothing to support your claim do you?

Ive seen the charts, an ability that powerful should be that hard to cast, I dont see the problem, and yes, the rest of the tree is still solid, nothing you've said has debunked the fact that there are still strong powers other than Prescience worth taking on the Divination table.

Not sure why you're only hung up on just Prescience? It needed a nerf, it got a nerf.

Oh dear. This is CLASSIC moving the goalposts. You said I was overexaggerating when I said there is a tremendous nerf to prescience. Whether you think it needed a nerf is IRRELEVANT. Whether you see a problem or not is irrelevant. I thought it was too powerful before too you know. Which is why I was shocked when you said I was exaggerating about the change to it. The primaris power in divination is tremendously worse now because it is relatively much harder to reliably cast compared to 6th edition. Since you now seem to be agreeing with me on that, there is nothing more to say to you. In the future try to give more consistent responses ok?

No you're still exaggerating and overreacting. Its not "tremendously worse", its worse yes, but thats the point of a nerf. No goal post moving at all

And you still havent actually argued my main point, you still are hung up on Prescience, which I had never mentioned in anything i said, nor in the original post that set you off on your tirade. I was simply commenting on the Divination discipline on a whole, and you went off on a tirade regarding Prescience.

This is the 2nd time you've specifically attacked a post of mine where I stated a neutral opinion about something. I wasnt aware my opinions were so offensive to your sensibilities

mercury14 wrote:
SeanDrake, can bikes assault after they jink? Thanks.

Nothing mentioned one way or the other under bikes or jink rules.

Super Newb wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Super Newb wrote:


A problem? No, not really. But 'still solid', the words you used to describe it, doesn't a imply huge incredible nerf. The one guaranteed power you get, the primaris power, has been nerfed a tremendous amount. I don't think most people fully understand how much harder it is going to be to fire off warp charge two powers reliably.

Overexagerate much?

No, not at all. Not. At. All. If you don't think moving a spell from warp charge 1 to 2 in addition to having the new warp dice rules isn't e is a HUGE a tremendous nerf to prescience, either you are unaware of the math in 7th (likely) or are 8 years old and haven't taken the class to understand it yet (extremely unlikely).

Do you know the odds? Do you? Compare prescience in 6th with prescience in 7th. Odds of success and odds of perils under each rule system. Walk me through the numbers if you think I am over exaggerating. If instead you have no idea what the odds are then you have nothing to support your claim do you?

Prescience is a HUGE buff and force-multiplying power. It should most definitely require a difficult test to use.

*facepalm*. Why can't people read around here? I'm talking about how much the power changed from 6th to 7th. Some people apparently didn't think it was nerfed hard. For example the person I was talking to up there. The change it underwent is real and it has nothing to do with anyone's value judgements. It's definitely a lot worse now in 7th than it was in 6th.

See I think the problem your running into is people are assuming your complaining with some rational point rather then just to complain. I am all for throwing out your opinion, but seriously dude. You are saying that it doesn't matter whether it needed a nerf or not. But that it was nerfed in general. Whats your beef? Its confusing, do you agree it needed a nerf or not?

Yes it was nerfed. But it did very much need a nerf. Personally I think it should be warp charge 2 AND been removed as the primaris and been random. Rerolls are EXTREMELY good in 40k.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Do you auto lose if you are tabled?

Seriously? Have you ever felt like a winner after being tabled?

Now you can get VP each turn rather than at the end it might have changed.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
@seandrake - what point are fortifications placed? Before or after terrain setup etc?

If you mean a fortification you have bought, that deploys with the rest of your army.

Only in maelstrom missions, though?

MadmanMSU wrote:
I think the most massive change this edition is the fact that everything can score. Personally, I'm seeing a massive shift away from troops to elites. Elites have always been better, with their downside being that they were either non-scoring or too expensive (FOC swapping shenanigans aside). But now you can just take the bare minimum for troops and throw all the scoring elites in you want.

Yes, troops will be able to secure objectives, but honestly, most of the time an elite unit will just wipe that troops out anyway. This results in things like:

Chaos. Now they can get their elite troops for scoring without having to pay the HQ tax. Scoring Oblits.

Tau. Crisis suits can score now. So can riptides.

Grey Knights. Scoring dreadknights and psyfledreads, without having to take Mordrak. Scoring purifiers.

Scoring Landraiders.

Deathwing that score without having to pay 200 points for Belial.

Etc etc etc.

Spamming nurgle spawn units to swamp out other scorers will be a thing I am sure. 180 for 15 T6 wounds with a massive footprint, fearless, speed and scoring? Um.... duh. Also welcome back wraiths, it's been a few months.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Until 7th, psychic powers were almost risk-free to cast with LD 10 running around all over the place.

Who would have expected a nerf to free buffs? Weird.

Lulz. You've got a darn good point there, lol.

However, I would not have expected so many people to be oblivious to how much the casting of psychic powers has changed in 7th, even after they've read the leaks! To agree with the nerf is one thing, to jump all over someone when they explain just how much of a nerf it is? That's shocking. I know kids play 40k, but anyone 12 or over should be able to appreciate the large difference in the odds between 6th and 7th.

Loopstah wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
Do you auto lose if you are tabled?

Seriously? Have you ever felt like a winner after being tabled?

Now you can get VP each turn rather than at the end it might have changed.

I was teasing. Honestly if I get tabled I feel like a loser. Period. Semantics aside you got your ass handed to you

I'm ok with scoring Paladins without Draigo, either solo or in groups

Super Newb wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Until 7th, psychic powers were almost risk-free to cast with LD 10 running around all over the place.

Who would have expected a nerf to free buffs? Weird.

Lulz. You've got a darn good point there, lol.

However, I would not have expected so many people to be oblivious to how much the casting of psychic powers has changed in 7th, even after they've read the leaks! To agree with the nerf is one thing, to jump all over someone when they explain just how much of a nerf it is? That's shocking. I know kids play 40k, but anyone 12 or over should be able to appreciate the large difference in the odds between 6th and 7th.

Yea and any one 12 years or older should be rational enough to realize it HAD to happen. Spammed blanket rerolls were idiotic and a crutch that too many people got too comfortable abusing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I'm ok with scoring Paladins without Draigo, either solo or in groups

Me too, I remember when those guys were hard to kill.... man has lethality creeped on us.

Can anyone tell me what the vortex special rule is? It's now part of the vortex of doom psychic power which is strength D vortex

PapaSoul wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the vortex special rule is? It's now part of the vortex of doom psychic power which is strength D vortex

Iirc the marker doesn't go away, it keeps scattering every turn.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Until 7th, psychic powers were almost risk-free to cast with LD 10 running around all over the place.

Who would have expected a nerf to free buffs? Weird.

And yes, I really can't feel any sympathy for people angry about psykers being nerfed when at the same time, some armies don't even have access to any psykers.

I'm a space marine that used to play with tigurius all the time (loaded up with divination powers all the time) and I fully and totally agree with this change to psy and increased difficuly in using force multiplier powers.

I understand that for the tournament scene, garanteed powers are all that counts. But I play with my friends and I'm all for more randomness to make games unpredictable.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

PapaSoul wrote:
Can anyone tell me what the vortex special rule is? It's now part of the vortex of doom psychic power which is strength D vortex

Iirc the marker doesn't go away, it keeps scattering every turn.

I think it goes away if you roll doubles when you roll for scatter

 Sinful Hero wrote:
What do assault grenades do for charging now? Do they still ignore the initiative penalty like. Move through Cover?

So far Move through Cover ignores the -2 movement penalty but not the initiative penalty. Genestealers are still worthless, unless people are reading the assault section wrong. Still hoping it says something like, units charging at full movement, attack at full initiative.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I'm ok with scoring Paladins without Draigo, either solo or in groups

Return of the Solodin. Pretty cheap way to cause some backfield havoc.

As mentioned above, Wraithwing will be back, I'm sure. And this time, they're scoring.

On the one hand, I like the changes. Troop units were always kind of boring, and now you can really bust out the fun toys.

On the other hand, the game has completely given up on balance and/or reason. The entire game is just bring what you want, damn any sort of cohesion. Even come the apocalypse can ally in.

"Hey guys. What armies did you bring?"
"I'm using Grey Knights and Nurgle Daemons today."

 Red Corsair wrote:
See I think the problem your running into is people are assuming your complaining with some rational point rather then just to complain. I am all for throwing out your opinion, but seriously dude. You are saying that it doesn't matter whether it needed a nerf or not. But that it was nerfed in general. Whats your beef? Its confusing, do you agree it needed a nerf or not?

I don't have a beef. I've noticed though that most people don't seem to get how much the casting of psychic powers changed, especially warp charge 2 and 3 powers. In this specific case I commented on just how much of a change prescience underwent. After doing that two dudes claimed I was exaggerating or mad / upset / a lazy player just because I pointed out how much the casting of prescience changed. That's ridiculous and childish, don't you think? The nerf exists, and it is a very very big one. That shouldn't even be in dispute, yet it was here. And why jump on someone for pointing out the extent of the nerf? Why act like pointing that out is a personal insult? It doesn't make any damn sense.

I welcome the extra randomness. It forces you to act more tactfully during the game, like a real firefight things will be shifting and changing constantly, how much more fun are the games where it all comes down to the last turn rather than those games where you sat there from like turn 2-3 onward and your fate is basically sealed, unless you can pull off a massive slog against your opponent. It gets super boring playing the same tactic of hold out til the end then run for the objectives snatching victory last minute.

I think the game will be much more fun, and things will be a bit more even (sorry nids, hopefully it wont turn out as bad as first thought).

MadmanMSU wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I'm ok with scoring Paladins without Draigo, either solo or in groups

Return of the Solodin. Pretty cheap way to cause some backfield havoc.

And now they'll give you a warp dice too

 Red Corsair wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Until 7th, psychic powers were almost risk-free to cast with LD 10 running around all over the place.

Who would have expected a nerf to free buffs? Weird.

Lulz. You've got a darn good point there, lol.

However, I would not have expected so many people to be oblivious to how much the casting of psychic powers has changed in 7th, even after they've read the leaks! To agree with the nerf is one thing, to jump all over someone when they explain just how much of a nerf it is? That's shocking. I know kids play 40k, but anyone 12 or over should be able to appreciate the large difference in the odds between 6th and 7th.

Yea

Good, you agree. Apology accepted.

 optometris wrote:
I welcome the extra randomness. It forces you to act more tactfully during the game, like a real firefight things will be shifting and changing constantly, how much more fun are the games where it all comes down to the last turn rather than those games where you sat there from like turn 2-3 onward and your fate is basically sealed, unless you can pull off a massive slog against your opponent. It gets super boring playing the same tactic of hold out til the end then run for the objectives snatching victory last minute.

I think the game will be much more fun, and things will be a bit more even (sorry nids, hopefully it wont turn out as bad as first thought).

That isn't going to change though. You're still going to lose the game on turn 2 because you rolled poorly and have to sit there for 3 turns, its just now you have even less player agency while you're doing it.