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GoonBandito wrote:

 einlanzer wrote:
Any change to grenades? Still 1 per unit when thrown, ect?

Assault Grenades are the same. Defensive Grenades are different: you can throw a Defensive Grenade as a 8", S1, AP-, Assault1, Blast, Blind. Defensive Grenades also don't give Stealth for being within 8" of a shooting attack anymore. Melta Bombs are also listed as being able to be used against Buildings and Gun Emplacements, as well as Vehicles and MC.

But do Defensive Grenades still hinder +A from charges? Can you use it in overwatch or just in the shooting phase?

Crimson wrote:

 Leth wrote:

Anything in the repair rules preventing you from repairing allied vehicles?

Battle Brothers can repair each other's vehicles, which is nice. I definitely need to get an Enginseer to accompany my Knight now.

Canoptek Spyders have a repair rule, but neither in codex nor in the FAQ says about not being able to repair non-BB vehicles. I assume it can. Does it stands, or AoC and lesser levels of alliance forbid abilities bing used on each other?

 Garion wrote:
I'm reading the "hot to choose your army" section of the book and I can't find anything that say that if you take multiple combined arms detachments (the old, standard FOC of 6th ed) you must pick all of them from the same codex (of faction if you like) and add the 1HQ+2Troops mandatory units in each detachment

all the units inside a combined arms detachments must be have the same faction but that's all.

So it look like we can make armies like this

1st combined arms detacments from the Eldar Faction (and mark this as the primary detactment)

2nd combined arms detacments from the Tau Faction

3rd combined arms detacments from the Chaos Space Marines Faction

One Allied Detacment from the Dark Eldar Faction

Am I missing something?

I think that now I understand why all the Factions are Battle Brothers with themself: because that is how they can function togheter in the new rules without killing each other...

 Verd_Warr wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
<snip>I think your relying on dispel way more than you should, you can only dump an equal amount of dispel dice as those used and in most cases your going to need an equal amount of natural sixes to however many 4+ they rolled.

Was going to say this didn't sound right, but you're the one with the book. Am I misreading or are you saying you can only throw as many dice for DtW as they threw to activate (i.e. enemy psyker throws 3 dice and succeeds in activating prescience I can only throw 3 dice to DtW)?

I also havent found such a limit in print, and havent found any reason I cannot throw all my DtW dice at one spell.

Updated the roll-up post with the little bit of info that was actually posted before the back and forth about the new edition started back up: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/8730/592379.page#6856282

And if you end up with a double post, leave it alone people. The board will automatically trim one. If you edit one you'll lose the info you originally posted.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Garion wrote:
I'm reading the "hot to choose your army" section of the book and I can't find anything that say that if you take multiple combined arms detachments (the old, standard FOC of 6th ed) you must pick all of them from the same codex (of faction if you like) and add the 1HQ+2Troops mandatory units in each detachment

all the units inside a combined arms detachments must be have the same faction but that's all.

So it look like we can make armies like this

1st combined arms detacments from the Eldar Faction (and mark this as the primary detactment)

2nd combined arms detacments from the Tau Faction

3rd combined arms detacments from the Chaos Space Marines Faction

One Allied Detacment from the Dark Eldar Faction

Am I missing something?

I'm not sure this is accurate, otherwise, what is the point of the Allied Detachment? It serves no purpose if can take ANY faction as one of the combined arms detatchment.


Easiest way to reign in all this FOC craziness? Smaller games. You can't field triple detachements or ungodly Unbound forces if you are playing smaller games (although Unbound could still be abused by some armies). Look for the standard points allottment to start shrinking for most tournaments.

There is not a link between a Faction and the army or a detachment. The only things that have a faction are the units. The combined arm detachment force you to choose units from a single faction (or no faction). The allied one do the same and add the they must be from a faction different from the faction of the UNITS of the PRIMARY detachments (so I could also have a 4th combined arm detachment from the Dark Eldar faction in my example...)
In a couple of months we could get a all new MamboJambo detachment that force you to choose a unit from the Necron Faction and one from the Grey Knight one ...

The only explanations I have about the allied detacthment are something like this:

- it was there in 6th, let's put it also in 7h
- it's a way to save on the troop tax
- they wanted to put at least 2 type of detacthment in the new book ...

The new ally matrix is what is letting unit from the same faction work well togheter: because now they are BB with themself

culsandar wrote:

 Verd_Warr wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
<snip>I think your relying on dispel way more than you should, you can only dump an equal amount of dispel dice as those used and in most cases your going to need an equal amount of natural sixes to however many 4+ they rolled.

Was going to say this didn't sound right, but you're the one with the book. Am I misreading or are you saying you can only throw as many dice for DtW as they threw to activate (i.e. enemy psyker throws 3 dice and succeeds in activating prescience I can only throw 3 dice to DtW)?

I also havent found such a limit in print, and havent found any reason I cannot throw all my DtW dice at one spell.

My apologies you can expend however many charges as you want but I still think it's going to prove more difficult to dispel than people think.

 D6Damager wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

The point I am making is that this dumb war game we all love to play attracts the types of competitive players who actively seek out the most cheesy, point-efficient lists. No matter what restrictions TOs put on their events players will break the game. .

This.
I'm not really a competitive player, but even I can already call it now that Eldar Maelific Daemonology spam to create a greater daemon summoning engine will be the new . Eldrad + Farseer + Warlock council means you can throw dice all day and not really care about perils (ghosthelm) or deny the witch dice from your opponent (unless they are also playing Eldar psyker spam).

But just make sure you file all the soulstones off your Eldar miniatures first. You know, those things they created because they are so terrified of the daemons in the warp because of what happened in their fall.

Oh, I'm sorry, that's right.... the fluff doesn't matter anymore. Just GW selling more daemon models does...

/sarcasmoff

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Surely a happy medium can be reached.

Realistically I could see something along the lines of "2 detachments max, no lords of war, battle forged only" becoming the accepted format. But then what about allies, especially come the apocalypse?

I think your proposed rule is the one that I'm eyeing right now: 2 Detachments max, 1 combine arms + 1 Ally or formation. Battle Forged only. I'm a little more open to Lords of War.

I will discuss it with the rest of my gaming group, and we will reach a final restriction together.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
It becomes a slippery slope - change one rule, change a thousand.

This doesn't have to be the case. One house rule that I used in 6th that wasn't in the rule book was that I disclosed the number of flyers I was bringing to every game, and got my opponent's consent. It wasn't in the rule book, but it was a single addition that made our games go better, and both players came out of them feeling better. That is my main motive for any house rule to make the games more fun for both players.

I do think GW has written rules that are sub-standard by any measure. Injecting complication and randomness where none was needed. The vehicle pen table being the most glaring example right now, but the To wound chart is another serious issue, as is the AP system. Since my group is relatively cohesive and starting on 7th together, I plan to propose a few other changes to clean up some of the more egregious issues.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'd say the double force org being broken thing was specifically due to the Flamer/Screamer combo that was out at the time.

Double force org (well 1.5 force org) has been in effect since the release of the first tau supplement. And outside of Ovesa star it's been fine. And now that that isn't possible I don't see why it isn't completely fine.

Double Force Org is broken any time a unit is under-costed for what it does. Riptides, Heldrakes, Annihilation Barges, Wraith Knights, Skyrays, etc. I would say that a 4 Riptide list is still unbalanced, even if it isn't Ovesastar.

Also, I would add that at no time did I feel like 1.5 force org added fun to the game. Allies did add something, but forcing Primary + Allies into a single FOC would have made the game more fun for almost everybody in 6th.

A Percentage FOC option would have made the game more fun for almost everybody in 7th. The only one that gets screwed by restrictions like that is TFG, and fluffy players who can ignore it and still get games if they are truly fluffy. (I like Riptides, I want to run 8 in an unbound list is technically fluffy, but isn't going to get many games)

They also put in a rule for when "not all your models can be placed in the deployment zone": you must put then in reserve (or use a bigger table / deploiment zone....)

So I don't think they except the games to shrink much :\

SeanDrake wrote:

culsandar wrote:

 Verd_Warr wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
<snip>I think your relying on dispel way more than you should, you can only dump an equal amount of dispel dice as those used and in most cases your going to need an equal amount of natural sixes to however many 4+ they rolled.

Was going to say this didn't sound right, but you're the one with the book. Am I misreading or are you saying you can only throw as many dice for DtW as they threw to activate (i.e. enemy psyker throws 3 dice and succeeds in activating prescience I can only throw 3 dice to DtW)?

I also havent found such a limit in print, and havent found any reason I cannot throw all my DtW dice at one spell.

My apologies you can expend however many charges as you want but I still think it's going to prove more difficult to dispel than people think.

NP Sean, just had me worried for a sec Also, thanks for all the info you've been sharing

 Garion wrote:
They also put in a rule for when "not all your models can be placed in the deployment zone": you must put then in reserve (or use a bigger table / deploiment zone....)

So I don't think they except the games to shrink much :\

That also helps if you have a couple of Come the Apocalypse detachments in your army. Having a two foot wide bubble around a unit that is "cannot deploy here" for half your army might really limit your space at times.

 jspyd3rx wrote:
So I guess that book is fully legit now? I guess it is, if anyone wants to use any fortification at all. Though WTF, are we supposed to use for void shields?

It was fully legit when it released.

Puscifer wrote:
I have a quick question...

There is a new Tzeentch player in my meta. He runs a Starscream list and it's just a PITA.

Has 7th made Mono Tzeentch Daemons any better?

If it has, the local meta is in trouble as he has won mini tourneys every week for the last 8-9 weeks.

You can still default to the Primaris Power.

Yeah... Tzeentch Daemons just got a lot more powerful :-/

Take two hq worth of Heralds.

2 for Screamerstar and 2 for each Horror unit (one with Prescience and another to summon through Malefic).

You then spam through Heralds and Horrors and the force gets cumulatively bigger each turn.

If the spawned Herald gets a power too, then this has become insane.

From Blog for the Blood God:

 Steve steveson wrote:


People keep saying this, but it is simply not true. How dose allowing people to play more diverse and less restricted forces sell models?

Assuming that this isn't sarcasm.

Changing the rules from allowing a player only three Terminator squads to allowing them unlimited Terminator squads increases the sales potential of Terminator models. It's true of every single unit. I know that if I were to continue to play I would load up on Grot artillery, Lootas and Shock Attack Gunz. (You can get a crap ton of grots and cannons at 1850! Honestly, it would be obscene and Battle Forged)

Changing the rules from requiring a player to stick to one codex to allowing them to field (essentially) every codex in a game not only increases the sales potential for more models but also more codexes. How many people are going to also purchase a Daemons codex for the first time this weekend? I'm guessing those sales will increase a hundred fold.

Some interesting cards and some boring cards in that deck

Those are only for the Maelstrom missions right?

Finally got the book.

Maybe this one wasn't found yet:

GtG does no longer allow overwatch.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Some interesting cards and some boring cards in that deck

Those are only for the Maelstrom missions right?

Yes

Spoletta wrote:
Finally got the book.

Maybe this one wasn't found yet:

GtG does no longer allow overwatch.

Including from being pinned? "The horror" from brood lords just got WAY better.

Spoletta wrote:
Finally got the book.

Maybe this one wasn't found yet:

GtG does no longer allow overwatch.

No, that's new. Welcome to the list.

That makes pinning better too, if it still counts the unit has having gone to ground.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
From Blog for the Blood God:

Spoiler:

What is the significance of the "Type" at the bottom of the mission cards? I notice that the "control objective #" cards fall into a couple of different types.

Yeah the new FOC makes some armies insanely powerful.

 Verd_Warr wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
From Blog for the Blood God:

Spoiler:

What is the significance of the "Type" at the bottom of the mission cards? I notice that the "control objective #" cards fall into a couple of different types.

No clue yet. I don't have the book until this afternoon.

Oh and in case anyone was still unsure "you can include models from any number of factions in the same army if you wish"

Allies are dead, long live Allies.

So not only are the number of detachments unlimited but each can be from a different faction.

 Wayshuba wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:

Second, for the groups that will get the most, it is the casual, regular group players. The other two groups, tournament and casual pick up games (which dominate here in the US) have been completely thrown to the wayside.

And are the two groups that are almost no existent in other countries, especially the UK where the designers are. There are very few places that have pick up games (I can think of one store, and only two that I have ever been in that have any tables other than GW stores, who have 2 tables at most, and those are mostly demo tables.). The closest we get is clubs, where most of them are more like a large group. Most people are not even aware of the existence of tournaments in my experience.

That may be the case, but last period financials showed it to be a consistent drop worldwide in every single region. This happens to coincide with their move to targeting the more casual regular player base.

But, barring that, even in a club environment I bet most players don't have prescheduled games (maybe they do, I don't know), yet now, they have to house rule a good portion of the rules just to get everyone on equal footing so half the players don't show up with "legal" armies that no one will play against because the consider the legal army to be "cheese".

Sorry, but this will, without a doubt, start to divide the 40k player base. You can already see it happening in this thread. When someone builds a legal army under the new rules and someone says I wouldn't play against that cheese. Well, you have an example of how this is already turning into a complete cluster.

Exactly. I posted an example of a relatively tame list that spammed using the new battle forged detachments and it took less then 5 posts for it to be referred to as a "prick" list by clockworkzion. Who obviously missed the pitch entirely. Like it or not 8 riptide4 lists are perfectly legitimate and legal in battle foerged, so when you say its a cheese list, or WAAC all you are doing is passing judgement on some kids fun and creating a divide.

Also someone noted that these lists won't actually happen due to model restrictions. Seriously? I own enough chaos crap to easily spam 4 Lords and 4 Sorcerers with 80+ cultists and spawn. That was the point in posting a "tame example. Hold on I'll find it and repost it here again.

Here:
CSM:

Chaos Lord- MoN, Bike, Sigil, Lightning C. P fist
Chaos Lord- MoN, Bike, Sigil, Lightning C. P fist
Chaos Lord- MoN, Bike, Sigil, Lightning C. P fist
Chaos Lord- MoN, Bike, Sigil, Lightning C. P fist
Sorcerer- Level 3, Jump pack
Sorcerer- Level 3, Jump pack
Sorcerer- Level 3, Jump pack
Sorcerer- Level 3, Jump pack
4 Nurgle Spawn
4 Nurgle spawn
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
1848

Basically put 2 lords and 2 sorcerers in each unit of spawn and fish for invisibility while the cultists are in reserve. Each unit has 6 rolls to fish for invisibilty and the army generates at least 13 power dice, way more then enough to get that spell off on each big unit.

Again this isn't even that awesome of a list given what can be done. But what it is, is very spammy, unfun, and extremely easy to build by most collectors.

Spoletta wrote:
Finally got the book.

Maybe this one wasn't found yet:

GtG does no longer allow overwatch.

Holy crap, my poor Fire Warriors...

 Vector Strike wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Finally got the book.

Maybe this one wasn't found yet:

GtG does no longer allow overwatch.

Holy crap, my poor Fire Warriors...

Pin the Riptide and while he's cowering on the ground, kick him in the kidneys a few times.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Finally got the book.

Maybe this one wasn't found yet:

GtG does no longer allow overwatch.

Holy crap, my poor Fire Warriors...

Pin the Riptide and while he's cowering on the ground, kick him in the kidneys a few times.

You use that emoticon way too often.

Pinning still counts as GtG, so yes broodlords are happy and i feel less idiot for playing 2 stranglewebs.

So my heavy detachment will be iron hands for iwnd land raiders and flyers.
Which chapter would give me the best assault punch to put in them?
Imp fists for objective holders maybe, greykights for some psychic ooompph.

The possibilities are boundless even in a battle forged list