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 ClockworkZion wrote:

It only goes one way. They clearly state that models not in a challenge cannot allocate wounds into a challenge.

No, it does not clearly state that.

Verbatim:

"Outside Forces
Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the
combat can only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the
challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that
combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the
models fighting in a challenge are the closest models"

Once the rest of the unit is dead, the wounds apply to the challenge

Leerjawise wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

It only goes one way. They clearly state that models not in a challenge cannot allocate wounds into a challenge.

No, it does not clearly state that.

Verbatim:

"Outside Forces
Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the
combat can only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the
challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that
combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the
models fighting in a challenge are the closest models"

Once the rest of the unit is dead, the wounds apply to the challenge

Sorry, skimmed past that too fast I guess. I stand corrected!

Also noting it doesn't let your models gang up on the enemy challenger, just overflow wounds into them.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sorry, skimmed past that too fast I guess. I stand corrected!

No worries!

And of course, with that change, the old Moral Support rule is gone


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Also noting it doesn't let your models gang up on the enemy challenger, just overflow wounds into them.

It does, doesn't it? All that it says is that they can't apply wounds to models in the challenges until everyone else is gone.
It doesn't say that they aren't engaged, so as long as they are within 2" of a model in base contact, every other model should get their attacks, even if the enemy leader is the only model left.

Or am I missing something?

Davor wrote:
Warmahordes? How about Dropzone Commander.

Yeah, Warmahorde. I know at my LGS, the owner would like to try Dropzone Commander, but lacks opponents to do so.

Davor wrote:
Lets start naming other alternatives. Why will you not mention them? We are not in a GW store we can say there is other games that exist outside of GW.

In my case, because I knew naming Warmahordes would have annoyed Zion to no end, and my point was not about that specific game, it was rather about the idea that there are (many different) better games out there.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It just pushes me away from getting into the game. The attitude is just all sorts of "ugh" for me.

I have hardly ever saw anyone play by them either. Or at the very least, use the same time of immature macho talk .

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think you need glasses because I commented about the limited selection of models was a problem for me too.

Well, there is a cool new Sister Superior, that is better than nothing at all…

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Even in jest it sounds like they're saying the game only attracts the most emotionally screwed up and sociopathic of players.

I am not an emotionally screwed up sociopath, and I will brutally murder anyone who disagree with that before defiling their corpses with great prejudice to prove my point .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, now challenge is just about changing the priority for wound allocations, without affecting in any way the models' ability to fight? Seems like a nice and fair change.

 Peregrine wrote:


Yes, and you know what also does that? Pretty much anything with any kind of heavy weapon. You're looking at an unlikely outcome (assuming no cover that's a 2% chance per sniper rifle shot, so your 60 point scout squad has only a 9% chance of doing it under ideal circumstances) and acting like it's an average outcome. And you're also assuming that destroying the transport also means destroying the unit, which reduces the odds of it happening even more.

Whatever fluffy justification they had for hitting weak points had major implications to some xenos armies with low AV transports, especially when paired with infiltrate.

So what? Autocannons have major implications to some xenos armies, should we nerf them as well? Should we nerf pulse rifles to only count as STR 1 against vehicles because otherwise Tau can kill vehicles? After all, a 60-point squad of fire warriors is even better at killing AV 10 than a 60-point squad of sniper scouts.

Honestly I'm terribly sorry the one situational and occasionally-lackluster space marine unit is causing you such grief. It's a good thing whole swaths of the codex aren't largely pointless or overly-situational like the majority of non-SM armies deal with and are force to build around.

I play BA, GK and DA in addition to DE. So I do know what I'm talking about. Excuse me if my response to one small tweak on one occasionally-used unit doesn't cause me to cry a river.

I wonder when we will get army erratas. Apparently still no update for C:AS. But then again, GW might as well have completely forgotten it exists, I would not be surprised.

They still have the rules as pre-order so I would not look for updates until they update the website as having it released

Leerjawise wrote:
It does, doesn't it? All that it says is that they can't apply wounds to models in the challenges until everyone else is gone.
It doesn't say that they aren't engaged, so as long as they are within 2" of a model in base contact, every other model should get their attacks, even if the enemy leader is the only model left.

Or am I missing something?

There is nothing that allows outside forces to target the enemy challenger, just overflow wounds into him.

What's the point of a challenge if it just plays out like regular combat all the time anyways?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Review is live.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Leerjawise wrote:
It does, doesn't it? All that it says is that they can't apply wounds to models in the challenges until everyone else is gone.
It doesn't say that they aren't engaged, so as long as they are within 2" of a model in base contact, every other model should get their attacks, even if the enemy leader is the only model left.

Or am I missing something?

There is nothing that allows outside forces to target the enemy challenger, just overflow wounds into him.

What's the point of a challenge if it just plays out like regular combat all the time anyways?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Review is live.

You don't get to say that cool "I challenge!" line. That's about it.
Unless a guy is on his own, then he gets to either avoid combat by the challenge being refused or gets to womp free hits onto a unit that can't attack him. Very Narrative. Much Forged.

It will certainly keep a 30 man Ork squad with a Nob from ever assaulting a lone model......Can Monstrous Creatures challenge in 7th?

 gigasnail wrote:
not to inject some reality into our plastic doodsmen discussion, but modern sniper rifles have gone waaaaay past being mainly for anti-personnel. the NTW-20 is a 20mm sniper rifle developed (primarily) by south africa and is used to blow up aircraft on the ground, fuel trucks, and light armored vehicles in addition to vaporizing regular guys. this thing came out in the early 90's, and there are larger weapons today.

so, no. it's not unrealistic/unexpected for an in-game sniper rifle to be able to damage the same kind of targets in the 41st millennium, but GW does what GW wants to do. they're like the honey badger of the wargaming world.

We're not talking about those things, we're talking about man portable I can drag this weapon in a drag bag, anti-personnel weapons used to shoot enemy combatants. Shooting a "weak" spot in a tank, or a fuel tank is preposterous! I have personally shot up vehicles and fuel tanks don't explode even when a full box of light machinegun ammo runs through it which means tracers are involved. You can shoot bad guys in civilian vehicles or technical vehicles, but tanks, armored personnel carriers generally don't have direct windows to shoot through to get the driver, it's generally a series of angled lenses he looks through, aka a periscope. So snipers, sharpshooters, long guns, whatever, are meant to take down troops. Generally effective especially when you're surrounded by a parameter of an Infantry Platoon covering you, otherwise you shoot and scoot, out of sight. So really since there are no civilian vehicles to shoot advancing troops in 40K then the fact that sniper gunners were used to take out vehicles is fixed. yay!!! I like my "camping" Scout Sniper Team!

 ClockworkZion wrote:


There is nothing that allows outside forces to target the enemy challenger, just overflow wounds into him.

What's the point of a challenge if it just plays out like regular combat all the time anyways?

There is nothing that prevents outside forces from engaging the challenger either. Just allocating wounds. As Hybrid Son said, it just changes wound allocation order/priority for the models. It allows you to apply wounds to a character that could hide in the back ranks, ripping stuff apart. Also, it allows the challengers to use their own toughness and weapon skills instead of the unit majority values.

It was always kind of silly to have a horde of demons or Orks, standing in a circle going "Fight Fight FIght!" instead of getting stuck in

ntw-20 IS man portable. so is the 30mm version of it, though i personally don't want to carry either one of them.

40k has transhumans in power armor and space elves. if an anti-material rifle (which is really the more appropriate term for the larger 'sniper' rifles anyway) damaging light vehicles (which is what these weapons are used to do, and have been for the last 20+ years) is too much of a suspension of disbelief for you, well, lol, i dunno what to tell you.

but hey, enough of comparing 40k to real world weapons/tactics. we should all know by now, that way lies madness.

Knowing GW, I see an FAQ on the challenge thing in the future. Likely in some weird third direction.

Only characters fight challenges, so only character MCs fight challenges now.

 Idolator wrote:



You don't get to say that cool "I challenge!" line. That's about it.
Unless a guy is on his own, then he gets to either avoid combat by the challenge being refused or gets to womp free hits onto a unit that can't attack him. Very Narrative. Much Forged.

It will certainly keep a 30 man Ork squad with a Nob from ever assaulting a lone model......Can Monstrous Creatures challenge in 7th?

I don't quite get your meaning. Why would the squad not assault a lone model? In both 6th and 7th, lone models cannot turn down challenges.

Leerjawise wrote:

 Idolator wrote:



You don't get to say that cool "I challenge!" line. That's about it.
Unless a guy is on his own, then he gets to either avoid combat by the challenge being refused or gets to womp free hits onto a unit that can't attack him. Very Narrative. Much Forged.

It will certainly keep a 30 man Ork squad with a Nob from ever assaulting a lone model......Can Monstrous Creatures challenge in 7th?

I don't quite get your meaning. Why would the squad not assault a lone model? In both 6th and 7th, lone models cannot turn down challenges.

The big squad with a nob assaults a single Daemon Prince with a bunch of attacks that has a higher initiative (all of them have a higher initiative than orks) The Daemon Prince makes a challenge. Two choices.
1. Accept. The nob gets killed and the excess wounds kill a few more boyz. The boys cannot attack or engage the prince.
2. refuse. The only guy with a real chance to hurt the Prince can't attack it.
That was why I asked about Monstrous creatures.

 Idolator wrote:


The big squad with a nob assaults a single Daemon Prince with a bunch of attacks that has a higher initiative (all of them have a higher initiative than orks) The Daemon Prince makes a challenge. Two choices.
1. Accept. The nob gets killed and the excess wounds kill a few more boyz. The boys cannot attack or engage the prince.
2. refuse. The only guy with a real chance to hurt the Prince can't attack it.
That was why I asked about Monstrous creatures.

That's how it used to be, and it sucked. But luckily, as I said earlier, wounds can be applied to the challengers if there are no other models in the opposing unit. So boyz are no longer prevented from attacking.

The boys will still attack the prince while he is in a challenge. He just is the last to be allocated wounds if there are other models the boyz can fight.

Well, that's better, at least.

I really wish that rule went the other way too.

I.E. a character who refuses a challenge cannot allocate wounds to the challenger unless there are no other viable targets.

Personally, I don't think lone models should be able to use challenges to their advantage at all. One guy shouldn't be able to force ANY elements of the enemy out of combat; it's not like the majority of races actually give a feth about showing honor in combat or respecting their foes.

EDIT: Because channel means the same thing as challenge, apparently.

Shooting seems like it's going to be a long drawn out mess.

If a 50 man unit has all lasguns and are shooting at a squad of boyz. 20 shooters have range on five orks, 10 have range on nine orks, 7 have range on eleven orks, 8 have range on fourteen orks and 5 have range on twenty five orks.

According to the new shooting rules, wouldn't you have to shoot and resolve casualties, first the 20, then the 10, then the 7, then the 8, then the 5? The first 20 shooting can't cause casualties on any models beyond the five that are in range.

 Auswin wrote:
It's a good thing whole swaths of the codex aren't largely pointless or overly-situational like the majority of non-SM armies deal with and are force to build around.

So now you're going to resort to "it's a bad change, but STFU because my codex is worse"?

So I do know what I'm talking about.

No, you really don't. You wildly exaggerated the effectiveness of sniper rifles against vehicles (I notice you didn't respond at all to the correct odds that I posted) and ignored the fact that Tau troops with pulse rifles are even better than sniper scouts against vehicles.

Excuse me if my response to one small tweak on one occasionally-used unit doesn't cause me to cry a river.

First of all, it's not about one unit. Sniper scouts aren't the only unit in the game that has sniper rifles. For example, lots of IG squads can take them but never do because sniper rifles suck. Now the few people that used that upgrade (for fluff reasons or whatever) got nerfed for no good reason.

Second, the point isn't that this one change is going to ruin an otherwise-good game. It's that the change is incredibly stupid, and no competent game designer could consider it a good idea. It's an example of the fact that either GW's rule authors are incompetent morons and/or they don't give a about the quality of their product.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kelly502 wrote:
I have personally shot up vehicles and fuel tanks don't explode even when a full box of light machinegun ammo runs through it which means tracers are involved.

That's nice. Have you shot up fuel tanks with laser or plasma weapons (IG/SM and Tau sniper rifles, respectively)?

You can shoot bad guys in civilian vehicles or technical vehicles, but tanks, armored personnel carriers generally don't have direct windows to shoot through to get the driver, it's generally a series of angled lenses he looks through, aka a periscope.

And what happens if you put a laser shot into that periscope? Dead driver. Or what about when that plasma shot hits the first lens of the periscope for the main gun's sights and destroys it, leaving the gunner blind?

You resolve all weapons of the same type at the same time. All have the maximum kill range for their weapon type.

So for your example all of the lasguns would be resolved at once, and they would all be in range of all 25. This is clearly stated in the rules on page 35 under out of range

"If none of the firing models are in range of a particular model in the target unit then wounds cannot be allocated to it"

Idolator wrote:Shooting seems like it's going to be a long drawn out mess.

If a 50 man unit has all lasguns and are shooting at a squad of boyz. 20 shooters have range on five orks, 10 have range on nine orks, 7 have range on eleven orks, 8 have range on fourteen orks and 5 have range on twenty five orks.

According to the new shooting rules, wouldn't you have to shoot and resolve casualties, first the 20, then the 10, then the 7, then the 8, then the 5? The first 20 shooting can't cause casualties on any models beyond the five that are in range.

No you wouldn't, it is by the gun type (so lasguns in this case) not by individual models. So all the lasgun wounds would be applied until there are no more models in range of ANY of the lasguns. Then you would move on to, for instance, bolters, or whatever weapons are left.

Oh Geezuss.... I stepped off real world into armchair toy soldierism... bad idea...

...the idea was sniper rifle vs armored transports....

Yes I agree that comparing real worl vs 40k was pretty dumb. Although the concept of a sniper team sitting on an objective shooting Orks, and Eldar at distance compared to the real use of a sniper is a similar concept. God I just won't leave it alone....

Back to the thread I think the argument was about nerfed snipers being nerfed again... However I would argue that if it can't effect vehicles then not a nerf...

Also someone mentioned playing 3 or 4 games already and they and their mates enjoyed the games. I expected to pick up a rule set at my local Friday... But no GW order... About the digital versions, I have the Legion of The Damned, and the 40K skirmish game on my iPad. I also bought a couple of digital White Dwarfs. They are a neat thing, but a real book is more my bag. However the updates and such that are always to be expected, would be easier to maintain digitally. I think my happiness lies in the paper version. Just need to find one!

Any one else played some games? Give us some feed back about the play, how'd it go?

I may have missed it if it was mentioned in this thread, but the Sweep Attack ability seems to be lost from Chariots.
I think the Necron one still does it, though? Since it is described in the Codex?

 Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:
I may have missed it if it was mentioned in this thread, but the Sweep Attack ability seems to be lost from Chariots.
I think the Necron one still does it, though? Since it is described in the Codex?

Pending an FAQ, I'd say yes the Necrons still get theirs. Seeing as they have the only Skimmer Chariot AFAIK they were the only ones using that rule anyways.

Burning Chariot was also a skimmer, but since no one used it the point is moot.

Plus, why the hell would you sweep with that thing?

reading the new book and says "unless otherwise stated, all pyskers other than bugs can generate powers from demonology"

Would that count for or against special characters since they are "locked" into certain disciplines? Like typhus only nurgle or be'lakor only telepathy. Just the way it's worded making it confusing if they are "otherwise stated" or not.

Deathwhisper wrote:
reading the new book and says "unless otherwise stated, all pyskers other than bugs can generate powers from demonology"

Would that count for or against special characters since they are "locked" into certain disciplines? Like typhus only nurgle or be'lakor only telepathy. Just the way it's worded making it confusing if they are "otherwise stated" or not.

"unless otherwise stated, all pyskers other than bugs can generate powers from demonology"

special characters since they are "locked" into certain disciplines

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:
I may have missed it if it was mentioned in this thread, but the Sweep Attack ability seems to be lost from Chariots.
I think the Necron one still does it, though? Since it is described in the Codex?

Pending an FAQ, I'd say yes the Necrons still get theirs. Seeing as they have the only Skimmer Chariot AFAIK they were the only ones using that rule anyways.

edit: already answered, burning chariot of tzeentch