Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/05/01 22:55:02
Subject: Re:The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
Kain wrote: Necrons probably outnumber the Tau lorewise though.
Lorewise there are millions of tomb worlds, so if they all wake up the Necrons would probably outnumber all of humanity, let alone the Tau.
There's also the fact they have no civilian populations- Necron Warriors were the pre bio-transference Necrontyr civilian population (and they're all totting Gauss Flayers these days).
6,000pts (over 5,000 painted to various degrees, rest are still on the sprues)
2014/05/02 00:05:18
Subject: Re:The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
What are you doing to get that number? 1/6=0.166 since it is a 6+ save. In order to find out what the odds are the formula should be (Chance)^(number of times you roll the way you want), which means that the answer should be a 1.64e^(-15)% or 0.00000000000000164% chance. I mean still incredible odds, but nowhere near your 1.31e^(-281) odds. Of course it has been a while since I actually had to do any math that basic in like 4 years so it wouldn't surprise me if my formula is wrong.
2014/05/02 00:08:06
Subject: The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
Kain wrote: Necrons probably outnumber the Tau lorewise though.
Lorewise there are millions of tomb worlds, so if they all wake up the Necrons would probably outnumber all of humanity, let alone the Tau.
There's also the fact they have no civilian populations- Necron Warriors were the pre bio-transference Necrontyr civilian population (and they're all totting Gauss Flayers these days).
All awakened, I think only the Orks and Nids really outnumber the Necrons.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
2014/05/02 00:20:34
Subject: The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
Kain wrote: Necrons probably outnumber the Tau lorewise though.
Lorewise there are millions of tomb worlds, so if they all wake up the Necrons would probably outnumber all of humanity, let alone the Tau.
There's also the fact they have no civilian populations- Necron Warriors were the pre bio-transference Necrontyr civilian population (and they're all totting Gauss Flayers these days).
All awakened, I think only the Orks and Nids really outnumber the Necrons.
Yep.
Seems it'd be Nids > Orks > Necrons > Guard > Cultists > Tau > DELdar > CWEldar > SM = CSM > SoB > GK
Daemons don't fit in since they can be dissipated and created at a whim from their masters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/02 01:20:48
What are you doing to get that number? 1/6=0.166 since it is a 6+ save. In order to find out what the odds are the formula should be (Chance)^(number of times you roll the way you want), which means that the answer should be a 1.64e^(-15)% or 0.00000000000000164% chance. I mean still incredible odds, but nowhere near your 1.31e^(-281) odds. Of course it has been a while since I actually had to do any math that basic in like 4 years so it wouldn't surprise me if my formula is wrong.
Strange, I used the same formula you did (P/6^T, where P is the values you want and T is the number of instances.) I don't know, I just got the wrong number the first time? I *did* do the same formula as you.
You're right, I jut checked it. No idea where my first number came from.
2014/05/02 03:26:26
Subject: The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
Here are our contenders. These will probably be going in a lengthy, often incorrect blog post to do with anecdotes and standard deviation of results. With their permission, of course.
Spoiler:
MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:Back in 2nd edition, a friend wanted to play a quick skirmish against me - Marines vs Orks.
For this, completely straight faced, he proposed that he field Terminators (remember - 3+ on 2D6!) against Gretchin in a 1:1 ratio. After explaining how shockingly unbalanced and 1-sided the fight would be - he proceed to explain how actually it's a completely fair matchup "because he saw a gretchin kill a Terminator in a game".
He was not joking.
Of course this one made it in.
This video is clearly relevant:
Spoiler:
Ailaros wrote: People have seen a single small blast hit 9 models and then wipe them out with good rolling, and then become firm believers that plasma cannons absolutely ruin space marine armies, or that grenade launchers are suddenly the business against hordes.
They never stop and ask themselves what's more likely, that blast weapons are good, or that their opponent was an unlucky idiot for that particular shot?
Fantasticly true. One of the reasons doing math hammer for blast weapons is an absolute nightmare.
Aliaros wrote:Before hull points, there was also a lot of awful anecdotes about how great autocannons were, even against AV12 vehicles. Of course if you throw around a hundred autocannon shots, you're going to roll a few 6's, but the amount of selection bias was flat crazy.
I’m not taken with autocannons. They seem like a jack of all trades master of nought that isn’t really jack of all trades because it can’t even scrape AV14.
aliaros wrote:Though probably the worst of the worst for anecdotes was Marbo, in part because that was sort of part of his schtick. People always remember that one time that Marbo arrived and blew up something massive, and then forget all of those games where he did nothing.
Thankyou.
Spoiler:
ZebioLizard2 wrote: "Why are you taking a russ? Last time I had mine out I managed to kill my own squadron of russes with three scattered blasts, they are just simply useless. "
You’re up there.
Spoiler:
Kain wrote:
Me: *Trying pyrovores to try them out once when the GK codex was shiny and new in 5e*
GK player: *Shows up with draigo's dirty dozen, all given a paint job I could tell came from someone else as he was new to miniature wargaming, I fully expect to get creamed*
GK player: *Starts talking about how he's gonna purge the alien and all with his paladins*
Me: *Nods and is banking on feeding him Tervigon spawned termagants all game*
Me: *Had a swarmlord ready and so gets lucky with his landing rolls*
GK player: *Was so unworried that he bunched up his paladins*
Me: *Has 9 pyrovores in range*
GK player: *Draigo's dirty dozen is now largely toasty, the Pyrovores predictably die in the retaliatory strike, but the explosions from the force weapons kill more of Draigo's unit and end up wiping them all out as I pile them all in to bring him down*
GK player: *Fuming*
Me: *Kind of not believing what I'm seeing*
GK player: *Basically has squat on the table now besides Crowe and some purifiers and a pair of dreadknights*
GK player: *Gets swept off the board by turn four*
GK player: *Claims Pyrovores are now the most overpowered units ever*
Me: *Scratching my head*
You didn’t win the thread, but you came close Kain. Nobody wins with anecdotes.
BOOM.
Spoiler:
Voluntold wrote: Dating back to 3E, when Ravenwing bikers had a 6++ jink save...
"Sanchez had a biker make 19 jink saves in a row! As soon as I can afford it, I'm buying a ravenwing army."
If anyone would like to see an anecdotalist in action, here you go.
Jancoran wrote:
Math Hammer away friends.
As for yesterdays festivities, here are a few Pathfinder hi-lites for you.
1st Game, vs dual Storm Raven list with Dual Baal Predators and Dual Fragiosos:
I misunderstood him when speaking about the Storm Ravens and had the impression that he had dudes in hem. Because of the error, I lost 7-6 by firing at the wrong target in the ending round. However, BECAUSE of the Pathfinder threat (after all, I have two of them), he literally conceded most of the field to me and even retreated most of his stuff away from me. He simply could not win if he walked into that. So he sent his Storm Ravens ALONE to try and win it for him. He got lucky there and did just enough, but you should have seen the battlefield. At games end, we LITERALLY had taken over each others deployment zones and it took every shot he had to get the lat two points he needed. Close game, but it was most definitely the Pathfinders he feared. He had two units that could have pushed on me, and he just begged off as the game was too close to risk anything unarmored.
does this make sense to anyone else? this guy ran a kitted out pathfinder unit with rail rifles for some goddam reason
The impact of those two units was pretty impressive there. They ended up KILLING his Fragioso, which the Kroot would not have done. They also killed an entire squad of Marines and a Drop pod! DarkStrider never even got out of his devilfish for this game until the last round when I got out to take side potshots at a Baal Predator, but that was just to try and tie it up and he managed tyo avoid that with FOUR cover saves! It was, needless to say, very close.
Does it strike anyone else as odd that a unit with S6 KILLED an AV13 vehicle? Probably poor placement on his opponent's side, if it's true.
His MVP was the Fragiosi which in one fell swoop anihilated my commander and his drone swarm. He made a really ballsy drop and it paid off in round 1.
Second game.
I fought a Dark Angels player with two very tough Land Raiders. You dont see people taking advantage of those very often but they can take a pummelling.
In this game, a single Pathfinder squad killed a Whirlwind, a Tactical squad and a devastator squad plus 1 Terminator. Here again, DarkStrider never even got out of his Devilfish. this game was over MUCH more decisively. I ended up tabling him. The Pathfinders outflanked and caught the whirlwind by surprise. He fired down on me, but I was in ruins and able to take cover, minimal damage. I then popped the Dev squad while the kroot launched shots into the tactical marines, killing a few. Near the end, the Pathfinders finished all of the 7 remaining marines. Total kills was 13 marines and a Whirlwind for the one unit, plus then one stray terminator (who was all that was left from the Crisis Teams and other shooting). Excellent production and here again the htreat of a second unit of Pathfindeers was enough to keep him surging in the opposite direction and into the Riptides.
Does anyone else notice this list fields devilfish? Also, darkstrider in a devilfish, doing gak all for his 100 points.
Game 3:
I played NidZilla. VERY typical Psyker build.
In this game DarkStrider was much more important. The Pathfinders killed two Gaunt units, and a Tervigon.
10 blokes 3 drones killed 66 wounds, guys.
The second unit outflanked on the opposite side and killed the Warloird Hive Tyrant after it got grounded by another unit. and finished a Devilgaunt unit and its drop pod.
Both units got roughed up more in this game than they did in any other, from Biovore fire and from gaunt shooting. Nonetheless, very effective and they didn't die.
So just a little report on yesterdays tourney results. Pretty fun.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/02 13:04:08
2014/05/02 13:05:30
Subject: Re:The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
For the first few times I played at the shop, people had a low evaluation of Tyranids because "bug spray".
"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose that functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bioengineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if is aware of us at all it must know us only as Prey."
Hive Fleet Grootslang 15000+
Servants of the Void 2000+
2014/05/02 14:04:29
Subject: Re:The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
I just played my first game ever the other day. We only went two turns, but it convinced me that vehicles are pretty worthless. First turn a single las cannon blew up a Hellbrute in one shot. (Killed a few cultists too.) 2nd Turn a single Fusion Blaster blew up a full Rhino in one shot. Their 2nd turn saw our dreadnought go up from a single shot too. All three vehicles killed in 2 turns and all from single shots. WTF? Make me change from looking for a Hammerhead to wanting a Broadside suit.
I agree fully that vehicles seem a but under powered. Hope they get an upgrade at some point.
Thanks,
Duncan
Ailaros wrote: You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!"
2014/05/02 17:35:49
Subject: The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
So I searched for the last 15 minutes and couldn't find the exact quote, but there was a battle report I wrote where someone made the comment to the effect of:
"I like Ailaros' battle reports, but I find it kind of annoying that he posts the results of die rolls. The luck stuff distracts from what's really going on in the game."
Which isn't an anecdote in and of it's self (well, it is, but for a different scope), so much as it is an anecdotalist's mission statement.
You have to have a certain sort of insane positivism to say that things happened they way they were supposed to happen when you spend most of your time rolling dice.
So I searched for the last 15 minutes and couldn't find the exact quote, but there was a battle report I wrote where someone made the comment to the effect of:
"I like Ailaros' battle reports, but I find it kind of annoying that he posts the results of die rolls. The luck stuff distracts from what's really going on in the game."
Which isn't an anecdote in and of it's self (well, it is, but for a different scope), so much as it is an anecdotalist's mission statement.
You have to have a certain sort of insane positivism to say that things happened they way they were supposed to happen when you spend most of your time rolling dice.
I like your battle reports. The dice are more exciting than the result anyday.
2014/05/02 23:12:01
Subject: The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
"What? Assault? Tau can't assault, I wiped out a full Fire Warrior squad with one marine one time! Go ahead!" Pretty standard fare, shame for him it was a commander with Fusion Blades charging in
Oh, Ailaros, I read through your essay, The Abstract Principles of 40K. Very interesting stuff... I'd say more about it, but it's 1 AM here and my brain's half asleep. Certainly changed my perspective on the game though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/03 00:39:11
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
2014/05/03 07:01:28
Subject: The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
"What? Assault? Tau can't assault, I wiped out a full Fire Warrior squad with one marine one time! Go ahead!" Pretty standard fare, shame for him it was a commander with Fusion Blades charging in
Oh, Ailaros, I read through your essay, The Abstract Principles of 40K. Very interesting stuff... I'd say more about it, but it's 1 AM here and my brain's half asleep. Certainly changed my perspective on the game though.
I win combat against beast pack with my farsight bomb on a regular basis.
2014/05/03 09:46:09
Subject: The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
Yeah, it's great isn't it? No one ever expects assault Tau until they meet Farsight.
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
2014/05/03 13:56:19
Subject: The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
liquidjoshi wrote: Yeah, it's great isn't it? No one ever expects assault Tau until they meet Farsight.
Don't forget about Aun`shi. That guy and his squad of fire warriors was killing Impereal Guard like nobody's business last time I took him. Very fun to be able to see "Angry Tau" on the tabletop for once.
That said, the thing that separates me from some other people with stories like this is that I recognize it was a horrible decision only done because I really wanted to see Tau kill something in close combat for once. A squad of fire warriors, an devilfish, and aun`shi cost about 3x more than the sum total of what I killed with it that game.
Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!
BrianDavion wrote: Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man.
2014/05/03 14:11:43
Subject: The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
Heh, on my part, the Crisis Commander with Fusion Blades wiped an MSU of Chaos Marines on the charge, then the blades shorted out
Clearly, this means Fusion Blades are crap because they only work for one turn. [/sarcasm] There's an anecdote for ya in there somewhere Scipio
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
2014/05/03 23:53:51
Subject: The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
liquidjoshi wrote: Yeah, it's great isn't it? No one ever expects assault Tau until they meet Farsight.
Don't forget about Aun`shi. That guy and his squad of fire warriors was killing Impereal Guard like nobody's business last time I took him. Very fun to be able to see "Angry Tau" on the tabletop for once.
Ah, I remember the glorious days of Aun'shi shutting down opponents attacks (so the original Tau Codex). He had a rule called Blade Master which, in addition to giving him pseudo-Rending, allowed him to sacrifice any number of his own attacks to reduce the attacks of models attacking him by an equal amount to a minimum of 1. Literally, he could sacrifice 3 of his 4 attacks to reduce the attack characteristic of every model attacking him by 3. Add in WS5 and a 4+ invulnerable and he could tarpit CC characters pretty damn well.
Anecdote time: Using his parrying I had him lock down Calgar for an entire game in CC whilst slowly plinking away at him before killing him in the final round. Got some lucky rolls to wound and managed to pass an unusual amount of 4+ saves.
So Aun'shi, and attack denial in particular, was totally OP. Oh and so are 4+ invulnerable saves on a T3 model, according to the opponent who spent the whole game having Calgar swing ineffectually at a little blue man in a loincloth
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/05/04 00:00:16
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2014/05/04 00:17:40
Subject: The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
Yeah, even regular crisis suits are better than one might usually think in close combat, what with being multi-wound space marines and all.
Though one could almost say that the idea that tau are bad in close combat is an anecdote. When was the last time you saw a tau player lose a game because of close combat? It's specious, rather than anecdotal, but you could easily see the anecdote on the other side "tau are weak because I lost a unit in close combat once."
Ailaros wrote: Yeah, even regular crisis suits are better than one might usually think in close combat, what with being multi-wound space marines and all.
Though one could almost say that the idea that tau are bad in close combat is an anecdote. When was the last time you saw a tau player lose a game because of close combat? It's specious, rather than anecdotal, but you could easily see the anecdote on the other side "tau are weak because I lost a unit in close combat once."
Actually, a regular crisis battlesuit is better in CC than even an assault marine. Stronger, same or more attacks, the only difference is WS2. It's REALLY not that big an issue.
2014/05/04 01:32:09
Subject: The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
Ailaros wrote: Yeah, even regular crisis suits are better than one might usually think in close combat, what with being multi-wound space marines and all.
Though one could almost say that the idea that tau are bad in close combat is an anecdote. When was the last time you saw a tau player lose a game because of close combat? It's specious, rather than anecdotal, but you could easily see the anecdote on the other side "tau are weak because I lost a unit in close combat once."
Actually, a regular crisis battlesuit is better in CC than even an assault marine. Stronger, same or more attacks, the only difference is WS2. It's REALLY not that big an issue.
Striking after most enemies due to I2 accentuates the weakness of the WS2, though. Pretty much everything will be hitting you on 3s and often hitting you first.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2014/05/04 01:45:20
Subject: The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
Sure. Crisis suits aren't going to beat THSS terminators in close combat, but they're not bad in close combat. You can't just chuck the remnants of a wounded squad at them and just expect that you'll win.
ionusx wrote: I never bring troops transports, their basically free first blood and kill points -said by an ultrasmurfs player locally here.
That's right his entire army teleport deepstrikes or footsloggs it up the board like it's 1st edition week and nobody brought any long range. It's bloody embarrassing to sm players in General. He fields a land raider as an mbt and doesn't carry troops in it either.
First blood is a pretty bad VP though.
I have been in the situation where me and a player constantly dodged LOS from each other in an attempt to deny first blood from each other until eventually it got to turn 5 and I only won (1 - 0) against him which was line breaker. It was a kill points game.
I think the game would be much more enjoyable if first blood was removed. It's either who has first turn or who siezes the initiative that gets it and you generally see people pick a weaker part of the opponent's army to alpha strike in turn 1 which brings minimal strategic value; just so they can get first blood.
I've played games with friends without first blood and I noticed a huge difference immediately. Less units were hiding away in LOS and were positioned in much better positions for providing the most bang for their buck.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/05 21:00:17
2014/05/04 06:36:27
Subject: The Worst Anecdote you've ever heard used in an argument.
Yeah, one of the reasons that the book missions are so bad is that it's so easy to play for a draw on primaries and force the game to be determined by secondaries.
More games than I care to admit wound up coming down to "first blood: the game". Once I realised this and started playing that way on purpose, it started to get pretty depressing just how often this became true when even just one player was doing this on purpose.
A while ago I was play a SM vs SM game, he brought rhinos, I didn't. he pretty much kicked my ass but I won the game cause I got first blood vs a rhino. It just didn't feel like a victory
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
6,000pts (over 5,000 painted to various degrees, rest are still on the sprues) 
12,000
14,000
11,000
W-L-D: 0-0-0. UNDEFEATED 
4000p
1500p
