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 grendel083 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
4 + HH + MoT + IA = 7

4 + HH + HH + HH = 5

Why? Because different sources are cumulative, per pages 32 and 68 of the BRB.

SJ

And it states same sources aren't?
Im sure you can provide a page number for that quote

Bolded and underlined, for those unable to find the info in my wall of text.

SJ

Strange, I've checked those pages several times, and not once does it say same sources are NOT cumulative.

Could you please quote the line?

Same here. I've searched and searched, and not a single restriction exists there. Or is this somehow the claim that psychic powers are special rules , despite the fact they're not, and this is the sme claim you've been corrected on before?

its irrelevant, it freaking stacks at tournaments and thats what matter....

As has been quoted in every thread on this subject that has popped up:

BRB pg. 68, Resolve Psychic Powers, last sentence:
"Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative."

BRB pg. 68, Blessings, last sentence:
"Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are always cumulative ..."

BRB pg. 68, Maledictions, last sentences:
"Note that bonuses and penalties from different Maledictions are always cumulative ..."

And as a counter point, BRB pg. 32, A Compendium of Special Rules, last paragraph:
"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefits of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."

Same language used in all four examples.

As to the Psychic Powers =/= Special Rules argument that keeps popping up, BRB pg. 32, What Special Rules do I Have, 2nd paragraph:
"Similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers ..."

BRB pg. 41, Psyker:
"A model with this special rule is a Psyker. Rules for Psykers are covered in full detail in their own section starting on page 66."

Of course, you will now argue "Different = Same", "Permission to Cast = Always Cumulative", and my favorite, "It doesn't say I can't in a permissive rule set, therefore I can". Although this new tactic of "all +1's are the same, therefore all +1's are not cumulative", is the best Strawman I've seen from the Stackers to date. Good show!

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

As to the Psychic Powers =/= Special Rules argument that keeps popping up, BRB pg. 32, What Special Rules do I Have, 2nd paragraph:
"Similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers ..."

BRB pg. 41, Psyker:
"A model with this special rule is a Psyker. Rules for Psykers are covered in full detail in their own section starting on page 66."

Endurance gives FNP, Relentless, and IWND, which are all special rules; these are the sorts of things to which BRB32 refers.

"+1 Str" is definitely NOT a special rule. For example, I do not gain the special rule "+1A" when I charge, since that special rule doesn't exist.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

As to the Psychic Powers =/= Special Rules argument that keeps popping up, BRB pg. 32, What Special Rules do I Have, 2nd paragraph:
"Similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers ..."

BRB pg. 41, Psyker:
"A model with this special rule is a Psyker. Rules for Psykers are covered in full detail in their own section starting on page 66."

Endurance gives FNP, Relentless, and IWND, which are all special rules; these are the sorts of things to which BRB32 refers.

"+1 Str" is definitely NOT a special rule. For example, I do not gain the special rule "+1A" when I charge, since that special rule doesn't exist.

BRB pg. 32, 2nd paragraph, 1st 2 sentences:
"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule. A special rule might improve a model's chances of causing damage by granting it poisoned weapons or a boost to its strength."

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

As to the Psychic Powers =/= Special Rules argument that keeps popping up, BRB pg. 32, What Special Rules do I Have, 2nd paragraph:
"Similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers ..."

BRB pg. 41, Psyker:
"A model with this special rule is a Psyker. Rules for Psykers are covered in full detail in their own section starting on page 66."

Endurance gives FNP, Relentless, and IWND, which are all special rules; these are the sorts of things to which BRB32 refers.

"+1 Str" is definitely NOT a special rule. For example, I do not gain the special rule "+1A" when I charge, since that special rule doesn't exist.

BRB pg. 32, 2nd paragraph, 1st 2 sentences:
"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule. A special rule might improve a model's chances of causing damage by granting it poisoned weapons or a boost to its strength."

SJ

It's not explicitly mentioned but it's referring to Furious Charge right there.
I know that because Furious Charge is a special rule that grants a model a boost to its strength.
+1S is not a special rule granting a boost to a model's strength. +1S is a boost to a model's strength.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

As to the Psychic Powers =/= Special Rules argument that keeps popping up, BRB pg. 32, What Special Rules do I Have, 2nd paragraph:
"Similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers ..."

BRB pg. 41, Psyker:
"A model with this special rule is a Psyker. Rules for Psykers are covered in full detail in their own section starting on page 66."

Endurance gives FNP, Relentless, and IWND, which are all special rules; these are the sorts of things to which BRB32 refers.

"+1 Str" is definitely NOT a special rule. For example, I do not gain the special rule "+1A" when I charge, since that special rule doesn't exist.

BRB pg. 32, 2nd paragraph, 1st 2 sentences:
"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule. A special rule might improve a model's chances of causing damage by granting it poisoned weapons or a boost to its strength."

SJ

Stating that a special rule could have a certain effect is not equivalent to saying that all of the effects are caused by a special rule.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
As has been quoted in every thread on this subject that has popped up:

BRB pg. 68, Resolve Psychic Powers, last sentence:
"Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative."

Does not supply denial.

BRB pg. 68, Blessings, last sentence:
"Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are always cumulative ..."

BRB pg. 68, Maledictions, last sentences:
"Note that bonuses and penalties from different Maledictions are always cumulative ..."

And as a counter point, BRB pg. 32, A Compendium of Special Rules, last paragraph:
"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefits of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."

His point, if I follow, is psykers powers are an extension of the Psyker special rule by which the powera themselves are special rules by that extension. Which I understand as they are hardly a standard rule like movement, +1A for charging and alike.

 Bausk wrote:
His point, if I follow, is psykers powers are an extension of the Psyker special rule by which the powera themselves are special rules by that extension. Which I understand as they are hardly a standard rule like movement, +1A for charging and alike.

In that case, you could never receive two psychic powers ever, in the sense that if you had Prescience cast on yourself, then the opponent could not Doom/Crush/Enfeeble/whathaveyou you.

I think, since a unit can be both Enfeebled and Prescienced, this interpretation is flawed.

So again, Jeffersonian: permission was granted for the resolution of two +1, as this is a multiple modifier. Psychic powers are not themselves special rules, as proven. Plus one strength is not a special rule granting a bonus to strength, it is a bonus to strength.

So, to summarise your position: false logic, misleading statements and straw man arguments based on false quotations. Nice one! A trifecta of poor argumentation.

 Bausk wrote:
His point, if I follow, is psykers powers are an extension of the Psyker special rule by which the powera themselves are special rules by that extension. Which I understand as they are hardly a standard rule like movement, +1A for charging and alike.

To which I respond: if they are special rules why have they never been in the special rules section of any rulebook or Codex, nor ever called a special rule in any rules source?
If something doesn't look like a duck or quack like a duck it's probably not a duck.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
His point, if I follow, is psykers powers are an extension of the Psyker special rule by which the powera themselves are special rules by that extension. Which I understand as they are hardly a standard rule like movement, +1A for charging and alike.

In that case, you could never receive two psychic powers ever, in the sense that if you had Prescience cast on yourself, then the opponent could not Doom/Crush/Enfeeble/whathaveyou you.

I think, since a unit can be both Enfeebled and Prescienced, this interpretation is flawed.

Universal special rules are not the only special rules in the game, which is your reading of my statement. Powers would be a specific set of special rules granted by a USR. Just as the Special rules Champion of Chaos and power from pain grant USRs but are not a USR itself (similar premise but reversed).

By your thought process there are no special rules outside of the usr section, which is not the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pretty much the same response for Princeraven. Given the power section is unique to psykers i fail to see how they could be considered standard rules like movement or terrain.

There are lots of other special rules. For instance, the Mawloc has the Burrow, Instinctive Behaviour (Feed) and Terror from the Deep special rules. How do I know these are special rules?
Because when I go to my handy dandy Codex I can see:
"SPECIAL RULES:
- Burrow
- Deep Strike
- Fearless
- Hit & Run
- Instinctive Behaviour (Feed)
- Terror From the Deep"

Point being powers are rules of a special rule. Just as much as the rules granted by the tyranid unique special rules. Which makes the general permission for multiple powers in to be stacked/cumulative make sense as well as the specific allowance for only different blessings and maledictions (unlesss stated in its specific power text) to be cumulative. Because we can follow that line of thought that all powers are a special rule under the psyker usr but are given particular permission to use multiples of some. Well that cleared things up, thanks princeraven.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
His point, if I follow, is psykers powers are an extension of the Psyker special rule by which the powera themselves are special rules by that extension. Which I understand as they are hardly a standard rule like movement, +1A for charging and alike.

In that case, you could never receive two psychic powers ever, in the sense that if you had Prescience cast on yourself, then the opponent could not Doom/Crush/Enfeeble/whathaveyou you.

I think, since a unit can be both Enfeebled and Prescienced, this interpretation is flawed.

Incorrect. Enfeeble and Prescience are different, and their effects are cumulative per the BRB. Hammerhand and Hammerhand are the same, and are not cumulative per the BRB.

SJ

... I'm glad things are cleared up for you, because I'm really confused trying to make sense of what you just posted.

The +1 to Strength from Iron Arm, Hammerhand, and Might of Titan are cumulative per the BRB due to each ability being different.

The +1 to Strength from three castings of Hammerhand will only net a single +1 bonus per the BRB due to Hammerhand bring the same as Hammerhand.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Hammerhand and Hammerhand are the same, and are not cumulative per the BRB.

Still no rule quote that says that?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The +1 to Strength from Iron Arm, Hammerhand, and Might of Titan are cumulative per the BRB due to each ability being different.

The +1 to Strength from three castings of Hammerhand will only net a single +1 bonus per the BRB due to Hammerhand bring the same as Hammerhand.

SJ

except hammer hand is cumulative because gw didnt update it to correspond with 6th edition and there for stackble in tournaments so who cares any more

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The +1 to Strength from Iron Arm, Hammerhand, and Might of Titan are cumulative per the BRB due to each ability being different.

The +1 to Strength from three castings of Hammerhand will only net a single +1 bonus per the BRB due to Hammerhand bring the same as Hammerhand.

SJ

When you say "per the brb", yet the brb has proven the exact opposite - something you are well aware of - you are breaking the tenets if this forum

Mark your posts as hywpi, as they bear no relation, whatsoever, to any actual rules.

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The +1 to Strength from Iron Arm, Hammerhand, and Might of Titan are cumulative per the BRB due to each ability being different.

The +1 to Strength from three castings of Hammerhand will only net a single +1 bonus per the BRB due to Hammerhand bring the same as Hammerhand.

SJ

except hammer hand is cumulative because gw didnt update it to correspond with 6th edition and there for stackble in tournaments so who cares any more

Well, one tournament at least. Others may differ.

 grendel083 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Hammerhand and Hammerhand are the same, and are not cumulative per the BRB.

Still no rule quote that says that?

Already quoted, in a previous post in this very thread.

SJ


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The +1 to Strength from Iron Arm, Hammerhand, and Might of Titan are cumulative per the BRB due to each ability being different.

The +1 to Strength from three castings of Hammerhand will only net a single +1 bonus per the BRB due to Hammerhand bring the same as Hammerhand.

SJ

except hammer hand is cumulative because gw didnt update it to correspond with 6th edition and there for stackble in tournaments so who cares any more

Please prove your statement.

SJ


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 don_mondo wrote:

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The +1 to Strength from Iron Arm, Hammerhand, and Might of Titan are cumulative per the BRB due to each ability being different.

The +1 to Strength from three castings of Hammerhand will only net a single +1 bonus per the BRB due to Hammerhand bring the same as Hammerhand.

SJ

except hammer hand is cumulative because gw didnt update it to correspond with 6th edition and there for stackble in tournaments so who cares any more

Well, one tournament at least. Others may differ.

What occurs at a tournament is up to the TO, and in no way effects how the game actually plays.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Hammerhand and Hammerhand are the same, and are not cumulative per the BRB.

Still no rule quote that says that?

Already quoted, in a previous post in this very thread.

No, you posted a quote saying different powers are cumulative.

You have never posted any quote that states same powers aren't cumulative. Nor has anyone else.
There's a good reson for that (the rule doesn't exist).

 grendel083 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Hammerhand and Hammerhand are the same, and are not cumulative per the BRB.

Still no rule quote that says that?

Already quoted, in a previous post in this very thread.

No, you posted a quote saying different powers are cumulative.

You have never posted any quote that states same powers aren't cumulative. Nor has anyone else.
There's a good reson for that (the rule doesn't exist).

Permissive rule set. You have to prove same is cumulative when the rules as written state different is cumulative. Proof is on you to show that multiple use of the same ability stack when the BRB gives permission for different abilities to stack. I quoted where permission has not only been given for different to be cumulative, but an actual restriction is given on bonuses or penalties from being cumulative if from multiple uses of the same ability.

This means that YOU have to prove "Same is cumulative"; I don't.

SJ

I have a Librarian in a Paladin unit. It is the assault phase after assault moves have been made but before blows are struck, the Paladins manifest Hammerhand and every model in the unit gains +1 strength.
It is still the assault phase after assault move have been made and before blows are struck, The Librarian manifests Hammerhand, as all the models in the unit are still models in the unit, they gain +1 strength.

according to page 2, when I have multiple modifiers, basic math applies, they now have +2 strength.

Oh wow, did I just prove they were cumulative? That was easy.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
This means that YOU have to prove "Same is cumulative"; I don't

That's been demonstrated time and time again.

Do you have persmission to cast a power? Yes.
Do you have persmission to cast the same power twice from different sources? Yes.
Do you have persmission to resolve a power? Yes.
Given that permission is there a restriciton on resolving more than one power on a given model/unit? No.
Does the power state it applies a +1 stat modifier? Yes.
Is "+" a game defined term? No, so the actual meaning of the symbol must be used instead.
Is "+" the mathematical sysmbol for addition? Yes.
Is "+" by it's very nature cumulative? Yes.
Just to double check, the power says to apply a naturally cumulative modifier? Again, Yes.
Do you have persmission to apply more than one modifier to a model/unit? Yes.


Your turn. You made a statement. As per the tennants of this forum, you need to back that statement up with rules.
You said the rule exists that states same powers are NOT cumulative. Quote it.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
according to page 2, when I have multiple modifiers, basic math applies, they now have +2 strength.

Well, that's a much simpler way of proving it

Since we're talking about Hammerhand, I figured it might be helpful if the power was quoted.

"This power is used in the assault phase (in either player's turn) after assault moves have been completed, but before any blows are struck. If the psychic test is passed, all models in the unit (including independent characters) have +1 strength until the end of the assault phase. Note this strength bonus is applied before any other modifiers, such as for nemesis daemon hammers and so forth."

When you cast this power... and resolve it (do what it says as the BRB gives you permission to do so)... then what is restricting you from casting it again and resolving (doing what it says) again?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Hammerhand and Hammerhand are the same, and are not cumulative per the BRB.

Still no rule quote that says that?

Already quoted, in a previous post in this very thread.

No, you posted a quote saying different powers are cumulative.

You have never posted any quote that states same powers aren't cumulative. Nor has anyone else.
There's a good reson for that (the rule doesn't exist).

Permissive rule set. You have to prove same is cumulative when the rules as written state different is cumulative. Proof is on you to show that multiple use of the same ability stack when the BRB gives permission for different abilities to stack. I quoted where permission has not only been given for different to be cumulative, but an actual restriction is given on bonuses or penalties from being cumulative if from multiple uses of the same ability.

This means that YOU have to prove "Same is cumulative"; I don't.

SJ

Bolded your lie.

Special rules do not dtack. Hammerhand isn't a special rule. Neither is "+1S". + is an inherently cumulative, by definition , operator. We are told that multiple modifiers are cumulative, and we Re given multiple modifiers when casting hammerhand twice.

You are as ever breaking the tenets, so please refrain from posting until up you can comply

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I have a Librarian in a Paladin unit. It is the assault phase after assault moves have been made but before blows are struck, the Paladins manifest Hammerhand and every model in the unit gains +1 strength.
It is still the assault phase after assault move have been made and before blows are struck, The Librarian manifests Hammerhand, as all the models in the unit are still models in the unit, they gain +1 strength.

according to page 2, when I have multiple modifiers, basic math applies, they now have +2 strength.

Oh wow, did I just prove they were cumulative? That was easy.

Paladins manifests Hammerhand. Since Hammerhand is manifested, the unit is at +1 Strength.
Librarian manifests Hammerhand. Since Hammerhand is already manifested. The is still at +1 Strength. Libby should have manifested Might of Titan.

Oh wow, did I just demonstrate the rules as written? That was easy.

SJ