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 Sigvatr wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
If they're tall enough to see through the slits...they can shoot...and be shot.

I was originally referring to the fact that most models will be below you and therfore spreading out would lead to less models having line of sight because they can't see at that downward angle.

I will convert so the slits are wider.

That is highly illegal and downright cheating your opponent.

I hope I don't get arrested......

There is no cheating involved in my opinion. GW created the skyshield with the intention all models could use it. It is a design fault that certain models are too small to see over it, it wasn't GW intention that joakero's official model could not use the skyshield/aegis defence line.

There is nothing stopping me from buying a different model that is slightly taller and playing it as a joakero so that it can see over the skyshield so what is the problem with using the official model? I could even use the official model and just put it on a slightly taller base so it can see over the skyshield and there would be no problem.

Are we going to let design faults ruin our game or are we going to use common sense?

champagne_socialist wrote:

I hope I don't get arrested......

There is no cheating involved in my opinion. GW created the skyshield with the intention all models could use it. It is a design fault that certain models are too small to see over it, it wasn't GW intention that joakero's official model could not use the skyshield/aegis defence line.

There is nothing stopping me from buying a different model that is slightly taller and playing it as a joakero so that it can see over the skyshield so what is the problem with using the official model? I could even use the official model and just put it on a slightly taller base so it can see over the skyshield and there would be no problem.

Are we going to let design faults ruin our game or are we going to use common sense?

Actually there's totally something wrong with that.

By that logic you can change any model in any way you want. Changing a model so it can do something it could not do if unchanged, or gaining sight, or having a lower profile, is the definition of modeling for advantage.

Also, I still don't get why you're using the skyshield in the first place when you can just give yourself 4++ with a psyker.

 troa wrote:
By that logic you can change any model in any way you want. Changing a model so it can do something it could not do if unchanged, or gaining sight, or having a lower profile, is the definition of modeling for advantage.

I disagree the example I gave is modelling for an advantage or cheating. It is common sense. Use an unofficial joakero model and it is tall enough to shoot over the wall so no problem, use the official model and it is too small to see over the wall.

Anyway all I have to do is put my joakeros on those special bases that are taller and all is solved. I am about to convert my skyshield so it has some holes in the walls as battle damage, holes my joakeros can shoot out of

Possible conversation at the start of a game

Me: I have these official joakero models but they are too small to see over the side of the wall, is it ok if we allow them to shoot over the wall and of course be shot at

Opponent: How dare you!!! that is illegal and cheating, if your models are too small then they cannot shoot over the wall they are standing next to, I don't care that it is a GW design fault.

Me: Well ok then, I will just swap my official joakero models for these unofficial ones which are taller and can see over the wall.

Opponent: yes that is fine.

conclusion: use some common sense, GW designed the skyshield at the height it did because the majority of models are that height, they didn't design it at that height because they didn't want joakeros to use it.

There comes a point when you need to rethink your life when you will et all hot and bothered about someone using an official joakero model to shoot over a SS that is too tall but you would be happy for him to swap the model with an unoffical one even though both models have the same rules.....

Modeling Jokaeros on taller bases is also modeling for advantage. And if they're not GW models, they won't even be allowed in GW events or a portion of GW shops period.

Ignored Post by obsidiankatana:

Here is what I don't understand, you clearly have a thing for Jokaero's. Which is really weird because a squad of ten is $220 and you are paying for weird looking space monkeys.

BUT YOU obviously like them. So instead of asking for everyone's opinion and arguing when people point out the flaws in your strategy, why not just do it?

Also modeling for advantage is eventually unavoidable.
I've modeled one of my Riptides in a hunched over crouch, it makes him considerably easier to hide in cover (this wasn't my intent, he looks freaking awesome is why),
I think unless you are playing in a very strict competitive setting then any alterations are pretty much okay so long as your opponent is fine with it.

I think in situations like that, if the opponent complains, you could offer to allow him to draw line of sight to a point slightly above the model which would match its normal height (if this becomes a regular occurrence, have some sort of bit that makes measuring that height easy.) You can do this, because you didn't chance your model to specifically do a thing the base model can't.

Monkeys are tall enough to see the slits but not the top of a wall.

The general way most people play with conversions is if they can be considered modeled for advantage just consider them to be the same size. If you don't claim any advantage from a conversion then an opponent can't gripe about it.

Most Jokaero conversions that I have seen involve GW models such as using a dwarf for a squat. I use night goblins when I run Joaekero.



As far as events banning non GW models my advice is don't worry about it until GW starts to hold events. The entire tournament scene is run independently of GW so it's a non issue unless you want to use the models in a GW store.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Modeling Jokaeros on taller bases is also modeling for advantage. And if they're not GW models, they won't even be allowed in GW events or a portion of GW shops period.

I'll remember that the next time I go to all those GW events...oh wait, they don't really have any. And is that one GW employee going to kick you out of the shop?
I can't stand space monkies but I love their stats.
So, here's my converted/counts as.
Is is modeled for advantage? Disadvantage? I frankly don't care. I think it looks awesome and if someone tells me I'm cheating and I can't use it, I won't play with them.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
If they're tall enough to see through the slits...they can shoot...and be shot.

I was originally referring to the fact that most models will be below you and therfore spreading out would lead to less models having line of sight because they can't see at that downward angle.

I will convert so the slits are wider.

That is highly illegal and downright cheating your opponent.

I hope I don't get arrested......

There is no cheating involved in my opinion. GW created the skyshield with the intention all models could use it. It is a design fault that certain models are too small to see over it, it wasn't GW intention that joakero's official model could not use the skyshield/aegis defence line.

There is nothing stopping me from buying a different model that is slightly taller and playing it as a joakero so that it can see over the skyshield so what is the problem with using the official model? I could even use the official model and just put it on a slightly taller base so it can see over the skyshield and there would be no problem.

Are we going to let design faults ruin our game or are we going to use common sense?

Hey, I got some loaded dice to sell. I am sure you will like them. And remember to always go over points limits you agreed on. It's GW's fault for not making your army list strong enough, so you should totally be compensated for it. Why stop here? Why don't you use a Flames of War 15mm tank as a Baneblade proxy? It's GW's fault for making it so easy to hit.

In all honesty, I am ashamed of people like you, who are not only willing to cheat their FRIENDS, but are even trying to come up with justifications for their poor behavior. It's just sad, for your friends and the hobby as a whole.

Hmm lots of hate for laser monkeys and modeling for advantage is a grey area at best...

Anyways, I love running my laser space monkeys in a squad with an inquisitor in the backfield. I find three, plus an inquisitor psyker (mostly Coteaz) with some ablative wound guys, and maybe 2-3 plasma acolytes are quite fun and a stubborn little fire base. More than three seems to be a bit wasteful at 35 points per, while one and there you could miss out on their random bonuses all together (plus one lascannon being TL'd by the Inquisitor is still only one lascannon and and not very efficient).

Are the the most bang for you buck? Nope. But do they surprise and delight? Yep. I played a young guy at NOVA that (even after losing a couple broadsides to them) was cheering for the laser monkeys and entertained by their mild shenanigans. If I were good at modeling they'd be Wizard of Oz style with a witch as my Inquisitor.

 Sigvatr wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
If they're tall enough to see through the slits...they can shoot...and be shot.

I was originally referring to the fact that most models will be below you and therfore spreading out would lead to less models having line of sight because they can't see at that downward angle.

I will convert so the slits are wider.

That is highly illegal and downright cheating your opponent.

I hope I don't get arrested......

There is no cheating involved in my opinion. GW created the skyshield with the intention all models could use it. It is a design fault that certain models are too small to see over it, it wasn't GW intention that joakero's official model could not use the skyshield/aegis defence line.

There is nothing stopping me from buying a different model that is slightly taller and playing it as a joakero so that it can see over the skyshield so what is the problem with using the official model? I could even use the official model and just put it on a slightly taller base so it can see over the skyshield and there would be no problem.

Are we going to let design faults ruin our game or are we going to use common sense?

Hey, I got some loaded dice to sell. I am sure you will like them. And remember to always go over points limits you agreed on. It's GW's fault for not making your army list strong enough, so you should totally be compensated for it. Why stop here? Why don't you use a Flames of War 15mm tank as a Baneblade proxy? It's GW's fault for making it so easy to hit.

In all honesty, I am ashamed of people like you, who are not only willing to cheat their FRIENDS, but are even trying to come up with justifications for their poor behavior. It's just sad, for your friends and the hobby as a whole.

Be prepared to be ignored for your honest and fair-minded perspective. Champagne_socialist lives in his own little world where he is the exception to all the rules and everyone else is wrong. Me and Martel732 we're swiftly ignored after he degraded into using ad hominems to defend himself in rules debates. Seriously, just look at his comment history and you'll see his repeated ignorance in the face of reason.

Haven't read past the 6th or 7th post. All you need to do to prevent the being shot to pieces by low strength high firepower guns is ally in BAs Brother Corbulo, place him as the closest model and you're sorted...
Won't help against barrage though...

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'll remember that the next time I go to all those GW events...oh wait, they don't really have any. And is that one GW employee going to kick you out of the shop?

Actually yes, a good number of the shops will kick you out if you insist on using non-GW models in a GW shop.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'll remember that the next time I go to all those GW events...oh wait, they don't really have any. And is that one GW employee going to kick you out of the shop?

Actually yes, a good number of the shops will kick you out if you insist on using non-GW models in a GW shop.

Which is totally fair, because let's be honest they only let people play games in their to try and draw in more business.

Hexwolf wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'll remember that the next time I go to all those GW events...oh wait, they don't really have any. And is that one GW employee going to kick you out of the shop?

Actually yes, a good number of the shops will kick you out if you insist on using non-GW models in a GW shop.

Which is totally fair, because let's be honest they only let people play games in their to try and draw in more business.

Wow. There are no GW shops near where I live. They'll actually kick you out? That kind of seems like bad business. Shouldn't they invite you in but encourage you to buy more?

 MWHistorian wrote:

Wow. There are no GW shops near where I live. They'll actually kick you out? That kind of seems like bad business. Shouldn't they invite you in but encourage you to buy more?

By using non-GW models, you're promoting their competition inside their store. Step 1 isn't to kick you out, so much as ask you not to do that. Keep doing it, and you likely won't be allowed in.

2 years ago, a GW store manager threatened to kick a friend of mine out, who was playing with 100% GW minis there, for talking about an upcoming WM/H tourney.

 Sigvatr wrote:
2 years ago, a GW store manager threatened to kick a friend of mine out, who was playing with 100% GW minis there, for talking about an upcoming WM/H tourney.

That's not good business.

It's GW. Good business would be to create a friendly atmosphere that wants players to come back as whenever you are in an actual store, you are more likely to buy from GW.

You know, how GW used to be a few years ago where GW employees actually asked you to come back with your miniatures, didn't press you on buying stuff and weren't understaffed.

But alas, 'tis the GW we're dealing with.

 Sigvatr wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
If they're tall enough to see through the slits...they can shoot...and be shot.

I was originally referring to the fact that most models will be below you and therfore spreading out would lead to less models having line of sight because they can't see at that downward angle.

I will convert so the slits are wider.

That is highly illegal and downright cheating your opponent.

I hope I don't get arrested......

There is no cheating involved in my opinion. GW created the skyshield with the intention all models could use it. It is a design fault that certain models are too small to see over it, it wasn't GW intention that joakero's official model could not use the skyshield/aegis defence line.

There is nothing stopping me from buying a different model that is slightly taller and playing it as a joakero so that it can see over the skyshield so what is the problem with using the official model? I could even use the official model and just put it on a slightly taller base so it can see over the skyshield and there would be no problem.

Are we going to let design faults ruin our game or are we going to use common sense?

Hey, I got some loaded dice to sell. I am sure you will like them. And remember to always go over points limits you agreed on. It's GW's fault for not making your army list strong enough, so you should totally be compensated for it. Why stop here? Why don't you use a Flames of War 15mm tank as a Baneblade proxy? It's GW's fault for making it so easy to hit.

In all honesty, I am ashamed of people like you, who are not only willing to cheat their FRIENDS, but are even trying to come up with justifications for their poor behavior. It's just sad, for your friends and the hobby as a whole.

It is not cheating to use a proxy model.............

I agree with socialist on this one guys, my monkeys where to small to see over the skyshield so I just proxydeded some models that were about the same height.

Check out these legit proxies.


http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/images/1/10/Warlord_Titan2.jpg