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Can a model outside of the Focus Fire you declared be allocated LoS wounds.?

Let me know if this has been hashed out...for some reason every time I make a search on dakka it comes up with an error message (and yes I've cleared my cache.)

Thanks guys.

I think you can allocate wounds only on the models you focused fire.
Any excess wound is lost.
If you Focus Fire and you fire on a Character, a model outside Focus Fire can make a Look Out Sir, thus allocating the wound outside the Focus Fire "range".

You still have permission to LOS!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You still have permission to LOS!

Do you mean the Look Out Sir thing?

EDIT: I misinterpreted LOS as Line Of Sight, you were referring to Look Out Sir

The explanation mark is how to tell them apart, but more reason to avoid abbreviations as they are not always clear.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You still have permission to LOS!

To LoS to models outside of the definitive Focus Fire Cover Save?

Not arguing, just wanting to be clear.

Would they then get their own better cover save...or the defined save.

Their save, as they always have the advantage of,..

Which would surely break P18.

I have no objection to LOS! to another model within 6", but I do object to a model taking a cover save when it's not allowed to.

Both rules require your opponent to allocate the wounds. One rule must allocate to another model within 6". The other can only allocate to a model with a cover save equal to or worse than the value stated. Neither are exclusive of the other.

?

Cheers

Andrew

JinxDragon wrote:
The explanation mark is how to tell them apart, but more reason to avoid abbreviations as they are not always clear.

Actualy, the "o" or "O" is how you tell them apart. When making an acronym you should not include words like "of" unless the acronym would be clunky. You can use a lower case letter the represent those kind of words if needed. So LOS is Look Out Sir, while Line of Sight is LoS. No one ever gets it right though.

Its a debatable point. There should be previous threads on it.

Which is even more reason not to use them.

While Look out sir may allow the wounded model to allocate to another model within 6", the focus fire allocation can prevent that.

This is because you are restricted from allocating to any model with a better cover save that the one stated in the focus fire action.

The Look Out Sir! rule does not mention anywhere that you have permission to break the focus fire restriction and therefor you do not.

Look out Sir is the more specific rule, so it trumps Focus fire.

Eihnlazer wrote:
While Look out sir may allow the wounded model to allocate to another model within 6", the focus fire allocation can prevent that.

This is because you are restricted from allocating to any model with a better cover save that the one stated in the focus fire action.

The Look Out Sir! rule does not mention anywhere that you have permission to break the focus fire restriction and therefor you do not.

I would agree with this assessment.

From normal shooting, allocating to a model out of LoS or in cover would be fine... But the Focus Fire rules specifically prevent it.

But you are not allocating a wound to a model with a better cover save, the Look Out sir rule is doing that.

The Focus Fire rules prevent you from allocating, not anything else that may re-allocate a wound.

 DeathReaper wrote:
But you are not allocating a wound to a model with a better cover save, the Look Out sir rule is doing that.

The Focus Fire rules prevent you from allocating, not anything else that may re-allocate a wound.

The problem is that Focus Fire says the attacked unit's owner cannot allocate wounds to those models. When does the attacked player allocate shooting wounds?

Death you are prevented by one rule and allowed by another.

Normally you would say specific rule overrides, but they are both equally specific (contrary to your belief).

In such a case if the conflicting permission does not specifically call out the prevention, then the prevention trumps, therefore no, you cannot LOS a focus fire wound to an ineligible model.

Just to clarify, rather than find out later we've been debating a RAW point in a vacuum: how do each of you PLAY it?

I just re-read the LOS! rules, and I think that I would go bug-eyed in disbelief if anyone actually attempted to say you couldn't LOS! a wound to a model out of the Focus Fire cover band.

In any event, I can't possibly believe that's the way it was intended to function. I lo-o-ove my Focus Fire shenanigans, but this one is a bridge too far for me.

As I said earlier Jim, I have no problem with LOS! to another model, you just can't benefit from their cover save, beyond that specified by the Focus Fire.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
As I said earlier Jim, I have no problem with LOS! to another model, you just can't benefit from their cover save, beyond that specified by the Focus Fire.

Cheers

Andrew

Hmmm. Yeah, that might work. I don't really see it as being expressly spelled out that way in the rules, but fluff-wise it makes the most sense, and doesn't seem like a bad compromise.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Just to clarify, rather than find out later we've been debating a RAW point in a vacuum: how do each of you PLAY it?

I just re-read the LOS! rules, and I think that I would go bug-eyed in disbelief if anyone actually attempted to say you couldn't LOS! a wound to a model out of the Focus Fire cover band.

In any event, I can't possibly believe that's the way it was intended to function. I lo-o-ove my Focus Fire shenanigans, but this one is a bridge too far for me.

Look Out Sir! can be palmed off to a model outside of the Focus Fire band, but are given an equivalent Cover Save to the original target. I am aware this is outside the rules in nearly every way, but after all the bloke is diving in front of his officer, he's occupying the same space as him in the end (after being riddled with bullets or what have you).

FORGE THAT NARRATIVE!


EDIT: Riddled with bullets. Riddles with bullets would be quite non lethal.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Just to clarify, rather than find out later we've been debating a RAW point in a vacuum: how do each of you PLAY it?

Hasn't come up yet... but given the Focus Fire restriction, I would treat it basically as only those models that are valid wound targets for the Focus Fire would be valid candidates for LOS.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Death you are prevented by one rule and allowed by another

No you are not as the Look Out Sir rule does the re-allocation for you.

Focus Fire says " Your opponent can only allocate Wounds to models..." (18)

With Look Out Sir your Opponent is not the one re-allocation so it does not break the Focus Fire rule at all.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
But you are not allocating a wound to a model with a better cover save, the Look Out sir rule is doing that.

The Focus Fire rules prevent you from allocating, not anything else that may re-allocate a wound.

The problem is that Focus Fire says the attacked unit's owner cannot allocate wounds to those models. When does the attacked player allocate shooting wounds?

This does not matter as the attacked unit's owner is not re-allocating the wound, the Look Out Sir rule is doing the re-allocating.

So you allocate a wound to the Character since he is eligible, declare Look out sir, and if successful the Look Out Sir rule re-allocates the wound.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Death you are prevented by one rule and allowed by another

No you are not as the Look Out Sir rule does the re-allocation for you.

Focus Fire says " Your opponent can only allocate Wounds to models..." (18)

By this logic, focus fire does absolute nothing at all. Players themselves dont allocate wounds, the rules tell you who the wound goes to.... and since the player is never allocating the wound focus fire as no effect and is just fluffy page filler.


Its either that.....or your opinion is wrong.... Hmmm, tough call.

I've made my argument for this before. FF prevents allocation to models with X or better save, and LOS! is a re-allocation. I'm under the belief that no, a model cannot LOS! against focus fire based off the face that a re-allocation is still an allocation.


link to old thread.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/572924.page

To be fair though, there was a time when your opponent allocated Wounds, making Focus Fire work normally - on a successful LOS!

Then GW changed it from choosing a model within 6" to the nearest model.

Eihnlazer wrote:
While Look out sir may allow the wounded model to allocate to another model within 6", the focus fire allocation can prevent that.
.

Point of order, FAQ changed this from within 6" to closest model.

Edit: Note to self. Next time read the whole thread before posting......... Happyjew already mentioned this.

Re the nearest model thing, I haven't checked out the BL FAQs, but I thought they had ditched that particular ruling to go back to the BRB. Can someone clarify?

Death, what you seem to be advocating is that LOS! circumvents any special rules that apply to the wounds transferred. Focus Fire restricts the cover saves that may apply to the wound to a specific number. Why do you think that LOS! gets to ignore that restriction?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Re the nearest model thing, I haven't checked out the BL FAQs, but I thought they had ditched that particular ruling to go back to the BRB. Can someone clarify?

Death, what you seem to be advocating is that LOS! circumvents any special rules that apply to the wounds transferred. Focus Fire restricts the cover saves that may apply to the wound to a specific number. Why do you think that LOS! gets to ignore that restriction?

Cheers

Andrew

From my understanding he's taking it as.


Step 1: Only allocate wounds to models in the definitive cover save.
STOP
Step 2: Reallocate wounds as LoS allows.



Instead of


Step 1: Only allocate wounds to models in the definitive cover save.
Step 2: Only reallocate wounds as both LoS and the definitive cover save allow.

I just want to make sure exactly what he is saying before providing a counter.

Cheers

Andrew